700E Hudsons - Difference between the 1930's, 1990's and Vision Line models

OGR did an article on both of these not that long ago. I own both the 18005 1-700E and the 11209 Vision 700E, and both are really nice engines in their own rights.

The 18005 is definitely a great bargain nowadays, and for me has never had a problem operationally. I know that their are some that have had a faulty Baker Valve gear assembly that would jam and had to undergo rather tedious replacement processes to fix, but mine has never had that issue and has been pretty much bullet proof since I first got it for Christmas.

As for its operation characteristics, the 18005 pretty much acts like the original 1937 model and other Lionel engines of the early 90's with the big AC Pullmor motor and mechanical E-unit, so you won't see very slow prototypical creeping like on the Vision 700E with its Odyssey Speed Control. That being said, it runs very smooth and is a steady starter. It has no traction tires either compared to the Vision 700E, but it still is a good puller all in all.

Again, with the Pullmor motor and mechanical E-unit, you do need to periodically oil the brush tab (which is exposed in the cab of the engine) and the armature shaft (covered by the ash pan underneath) on the AC motor, and once in awhile replace the motor brushes, like every other Lionel engine with an AC motor.

I will say that sometimes the smoke unit works, sometimes it doesn't. It's a little flimsy at times, especially compared to the fan driven smoke of the Vision 700E, but when it works, it works.

Oh yeah, and be careful with the engine-to-tender coupling chain, because it's very fragile, compared to both the original 1937 one and the wireless drawbar of the Vision 700E. I've had to replace the connecting rings on it after my mom knocked it off one of my shelves...

I don't have a pre war 700E so can't compare with either of two more modern ones. I do have the 1990 and Vision versions though. As Thomas states the 1990 runs like a typical Pullmor engine. Its smooth but will not hold a constant speed nor have the pulling power like a Pittman powered engine. Lubrication is the same save the Pullmor motor bearings. They are nice engines but all three lack the detail of rest of J1e's made over the years including K-Line, MTH, and 3rd Rail J1x's. Forum members who are more familiar with all 3 have stated there are differences in boiler shape between the three but I couldn't tell you what those differences are or how much they would matter.

The Vision line Hudson is the best ever made.  I think this will be the world standard for the Hudson.   Can motor, sound, smoke, swinging bell, whistle smoke, and much more.  If you are going to be a runner, this is the best ever.  Any older Hudson with the old AC motor is not the same.  

The old Hudson is  just an old Hudsons.  Everyone has tried to make a better Hudson.  Lionel won that battle with the vision line Hudson.  Back in the early 70's I had a 1930  Hudson.  It was nothing compared to the locomotives of today.  If I had the old one today, it would be for sale.   

The #18005 replicates the original 700e both internally and externally in nearly every way including being made in America by Lionel.  If you're into Lionel heritage, nothing from the modern era tops it.    The VL 700e is a very well done Hudson made for Lionel in  China  with no internal and few external similarities of the original.  True Lionel fans want both..

Joe

ok i've owned all of these at one point or another so i'll try to answer your questions and not start a debate on hudsons.

First - I wanted to know how true of a reproduction is it from the original 30’s model.  I know that the 1-700E has Railsounds 1 and a smoke unit, but other than that, how does it compare?  

it's not a true reproduction at all not one part from the original will fit the '90 version. they have more in common with a 773. as for operation it runs very simular to the late 700e's with the 18-1 gear ratio but an early '37-39 with the 10-1 ratio will run alot faster. none of the lionel hudsons after '39 run very fast they are as i always said "kid proofed" i started saying that after my daughter ran my 1950 773 full speed around 0-31 curves and it didnt derail.  just remember the railsounds are from 1990 the whistle does sound nice though. neither the original or the '90 have any traction tires or magna traction they are decent pullers considering but if you wanna pull a 40 car train go vision line. i actually once did compare a '90 to my original '38 and the '90 could pull 6 original postwar madison cars 7 made it spin badly. the original got 6 moving but was spinning some getting moving i didnt try 7 cause i didnt want to beat on an original C8 boxed 1938 700e. the vision line will pull whatever you want its a tugboat. 

Second – It’s been more than 25 years since it was produced so.  Does it run like a Lionel product from the 90’s or is it a little more refined? 

they run like an old school engine not really much more refined than a 736. if you want a refined engine go vision line with the legacy control.

Third – Maintenance.  Is it maintained (oil/lube) any differently than the 30’s model or closer to the Vision Line version? 

it depends on the year 700e the early ones from '37 have no holes in the frame to add oil to the engine, they are a pain to service they did add the holes later on in the run. the '90 model is pretty easy to keep lubed and i never had any problems with the ones i've had and they are easy to tear apart to work on same service procedures as a postwar engine. i havent had to take apart a vision line one but i imagine they'd be the worst to take apart with all the electronics. 

I would like to hear from those who own the 90’s version or from those who own the 90’s and Vision Line version for their critiques and comments about each locomotive

the original is the original it's a true legend. the '90 version is a great engine in it's own right and these can be had for like $400-500 dallars in like new condition which makes them quite a bargain. the vision line one is a def wow engine it has all the swinging bells, whistle smoke legacy control etc. each engine is the pinnacle of trains for their given era

Thank you to everyone for your responses and your experiences that came along with them. 

I’ll come clean on a couple issues as to why I made this post. 

First, I do own a Vision Line 700E, but have never run it.  I have taken it out of its box to inspect it and make certain that nothing was damaged, but didn’t give it any run time.  This is partly because I haven’t had the time to because of other obligations and currently I don’t have much room (even on the carpet) to properly run it and check out all the features. 

I was asking about the 1-700E because I love older Lionel locomotives and it would have replaced the VL version that I currently have.  As odd as it sounds, conventional locomotives and are more entertaining to watch and operate, even though a 1-700E can’t truly compare to 21st century counterpart. 

Thank you once again.

Brian I understand your love for older locomotives.  We all have love for what we like.  I am a guy who wants the latest and best.  You already have it in the vision Hudson.  If you are not going to be an operator, you have a large field of Hudsons to buy and it is a buyers market on old stuff right now.   I am not in that market. 

I have a friend who is into model A Fords.  Lots of work, lots of money and when it is done, it is still an old car.  You are in the drivers seat as your new Hudson will get your wallet full enough to buy more than one old Hudson.  One good thing about the older locomotives is the fact (Like the model A Ford)  that anyone can work on them and they are simple to fix.  Parts are everywhere to fix the older locomotives.  I love some of the restoration jobs guys outline here on the forum.  We have some talented guys.  I have done many of those restorations years ago.  I was lucky as I had access to a glass bead machine.  Nothing like starting a restoration project with a bare metal body.  

Lionel did some good Hudsons in the past 20 years and some are very good.   I still enjoy checking out all the older parts at York.  My guess is every part made can be had.  I enjoyed your post and conventional guys should be happy that guys like yourself share what they like.  

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

Thank you to everyone for your responses and your experiences that came along with them. 

I’ll come clean on a couple issues as to why I made this post. 

First, I do own a Vision Line 700E, but have never run it.  I have taken it out of its box to inspect it and make certain that nothing was damaged, but didn’t give it any run time.  This is partly because I haven’t had the time to because of other obligations and currently I don’t have much room (even on the carpet) to properly run it and check out all the features. 

I was asking about the 1-700E because I love older Lionel locomotives and it would have replaced the VL version that I currently have.  As odd as it sounds, conventional locomotives and are more entertaining to watch and operate, even though a 1-700E can’t truly compare to 21st century counterpart. 

Thank you once again.

Its a shame you're not running your VL Hudson.  With swinging bell, whistle smoke and great sound, its one not to be overlooked.     IMO, the only place a 1-700e should be is where all historic 1/48th sized steamers belong, preserved on display for all 1/48th sized folks to enjoy.      And that's exactly where mine ended up..

Joe

Brian -

So, you're the guy with the un-run Vision Hudson that I didn't buy...I do have a 1990 6-18005 that I recently got. Very nice, old-fashioned, Pullmor loco; beautiful, and runs well for what it is. The gearing isn't bad and I can see it with ERR Command control (can't use cruise on a Pullmor, unfortunately) one day.

But, how could you prefer conventional, old-style locos to new command/cruise versions? That, I don't get. I'm no flag-waver, but I do like the 18005 for its domestic roots. Connected, as it were. (Of course, 90% of my "collection" is Asian-made 3RO scale.) 

Having said that, tell ya' what: I'll trade you even: my conventional (which you prefer), TRO 6-18005 for your VL Hudson; I won't even worry about the color. OK, I'll throw in a Big Mac meal to sweeten the deal and pay for all shipping. I'll be awaiting your e-mail.

Everyone has different interests, as they say.

Personally, Brian, I can see where you're coming from. Older Modern Era Lionel is nostalgic for a kid like me who grew up in the early 90's, and today they have more lasting charm overall than the newer engines, even though I have a few new Legacy and Proto 2/3 engines. Besides being able to get them at AMAZING bargain prices today, one could always swap in a Command Control upgrade for a tinkering project. I'll probably be doing that with a couple engines in mind from the LTI era. That being said, I tend to like looking back on the quaint older sound systems of the past, such as RailSounds 1.0

Oh yeah, and things like this:

Is something you won't be able to see today.

If you're looking for a 1-700E I have one that I'd be willing to include in a deal for a black VL Hudson. 

Mike

I would like to thank everyone for their further comments and advice.

GIT-R-DONE – I’ve re-read your comments again and I will say that the comparison of the 30’s version alongside the 90’s version is very in-depth to where I can make more of an education decision about what to do next.  I think my apprehension regarding which one I would rather have is based on not running my VL 700E and not truly experiencing the locomotive for what it has to offer.  With that said, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

MARTY FITZHENRY – Older trains have always captured my attention in ways that modern trains (and their electronics) can’t, but I’m pretty certain that most other train enthusiasts can say something similar.  I believe there to be a certain appreciation for older mechanics but the same can be said for the really nice modern stuff as well.  In additional, I’ve always love the really old cars as well, but know that they must be babied to a certain point to work as well as they did when they were new.

JC642 – I know some guys who use their 1-700E strictly as a display piece.  But a very nice display piece as it is.

D550 and EZMIKE – The only way how the deal could be complete is if I include a brand new ZW-L and Legacy control system as well. 

So Brian, you do realize you can operate your Vision Hudson in conventional, no?

Even in conventional you will get better sounds, smoke, more power with smoother delivery. Set up a loop on the floor and try it.

Pete

This is a fascinating discussion! I am learning lots!

Peter

The 700e from the 1930's drivers are all flanged. I think it needs O-72 curves, but am not 100% sure. The middle drivers on the 6-18005 are blind, so it can run on tighter curves. I think the 700e prefers t-rail track as well due to scale size flanges.

The piston guides on the 6-18005 are not true to the 700e. The factory placed the bottom on on top, and the top on the bottom.

700e:

6-18005:

That being said, I will be buying a 6-18005 someday soon. Something about getting the engine you wanted as a kid that seems satisfying.

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

I would like to thank everyone for their further comments and advice.

GIT-R-DONE – I’ve re-read your comments again and I will say that the comparison of the 30’s version alongside the 90’s version is very in-depth to where I can make more of an education decision about what to do next.  I think my apprehension regarding which one I would rather have is based on not running my VL 700E and not truly experiencing the locomotive for what it has to offer.  With that said, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

MARTY FITZHENRY – Older trains have always captured my attention in ways that modern trains (and their electronics) can’t, but I’m pretty certain that most other train enthusiasts can say something similar.  I believe there to be a certain appreciation for older mechanics but the same can be said for the really nice modern stuff as well.  In additional, I’ve always love the really old cars as well, but know that they must be babied to a certain point to work as well as they did when they were new.

JC642 – I know some guys who use their 1-700E strictly as a display piece.  But a very nice display piece as it is.

D550 and EZMIKE – The only way how the deal could be complete is if I include a brand new ZW-L and Legacy control system as well. 

Very interesting, I understand the Legacy Control System but just curious, why the ZW-L? 

Mike

JC642 posted:

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

Thank you to everyone for your responses and your experiences that came along with them. 

I’ll come clean on a couple issues as to why I made this post. 

First, I do own a Vision Line 700E, but have never run it.  I have taken it out of its box to inspect it and make certain that nothing was damaged, but didn’t give it any run time.  This is partly because I haven’t had the time to because of other obligations and currently I don’t have much room (even on the carpet) to properly run it and check out all the features. 

I was asking about the 1-700E because I love older Lionel locomotives and it would have replaced the VL version that I currently have.  As odd as it sounds, conventional locomotives and are more entertaining to watch and operate, even though a 1-700E can’t truly compare to 21st century counterpart. 

Thank you once again.

Its a shame you're not running your VL Hudson.  With swinging bell, whistle smoke and great sound, its one not to be overlooked.     IMO, the only place a 1-700e should be is where all historic 1/48th sized steamers belong, preserved on display for all 1/48th sized folks to enjoy.      And that's exactly where mine ended up..

Joe

 

What a great idea having the display engine in a fenced area. Can display and run it.

If I had the $$, I would buy the older model because I like old time stuff even if it isn't perfect.  Nothing wrong with a Model A either. Had an old timer who restored them, took his  roadster all the way to Nova Scotia and back with no problems.

ezmike posted:

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

I would like to thank everyone for their further comments and advice.

GIT-R-DONE – I’ve re-read your comments again and I will say that the comparison of the 30’s version alongside the 90’s version is very in-depth to where I can make more of an education decision about what to do next.  I think my apprehension regarding which one I would rather have is based on not running my VL 700E and not truly experiencing the locomotive for what it has to offer.  With that said, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

MARTY FITZHENRY – Older trains have always captured my attention in ways that modern trains (and their electronics) can’t, but I’m pretty certain that most other train enthusiasts can say something similar.  I believe there to be a certain appreciation for older mechanics but the same can be said for the really nice modern stuff as well.  In additional, I’ve always love the really old cars as well, but know that they must be babied to a certain point to work as well as they did when they were new.

JC642 – I know some guys who use their 1-700E strictly as a display piece.  But a very nice display piece as it is.

D550 and EZMIKE – The only way how the deal could be complete is if I include a brand new ZW-L and Legacy control system as well. 

Very interesting, I understand the Legacy Control System but just curious, why the ZW-L? 

Mike

I chose the ZW-L because it could handle both conventional and command environments. I also have a 400E that needs to be run conventionally and the ZW-L was a perfect fit for me.

Norton posted:

So Brian, you do realize you can operate your Vision Hudson in conventional, no?

Even in conventional you will get better sounds, smoke, more power with smoother delivery. Set up a loop on the floor and try it.

Pete

Yes the VL 700e could do both, but I always felt that it was never really a conventional loco because it still had all of its fancy electronics on the inside. I'm a purist and, to me, a conventional loco needs to be purely conventional for me to believe it.

I own two 5340 (18005) 1990's scale US made Hudson's. They are not identical to the 1937 5344 version but look nearly the same and are still pretty nice. IMO they are geared well for fast passenger service and they head the 20th Century Ltd cars on my layout. Powered by a late 1950's 275 watt ZW,  both engines run excellent, and the smoke unit works (as long as you don't over feed it) . I just set the speed and watch them run. The engine pulls seven 60' passenger cars with ease at 15-16 volts.. No need for anything more.

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

ezmike posted:

Phoebe Snow Route posted:

I would like to thank everyone for their further comments and advice.

GIT-R-DONE – I’ve re-read your comments again and I will say that the comparison of the 30’s version alongside the 90’s version is very in-depth to where I can make more of an education decision about what to do next.  I think my apprehension regarding which one I would rather have is based on not running my VL 700E and not truly experiencing the locomotive for what it has to offer.  With that said, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

MARTY FITZHENRY – Older trains have always captured my attention in ways that modern trains (and their electronics) can’t, but I’m pretty certain that most other train enthusiasts can say something similar.  I believe there to be a certain appreciation for older mechanics but the same can be said for the really nice modern stuff as well.  In additional, I’ve always love the really old cars as well, but know that they must be babied to a certain point to work as well as they did when they were new.

JC642 – I know some guys who use their 1-700E strictly as a display piece.  But a very nice display piece as it is.

D550 and EZMIKE – The only way how the deal could be complete is if I include a brand new ZW-L and Legacy control system as well. 

Very interesting, I understand the Legacy Control System but just curious, why the ZW-L? 

Mike

I chose the ZW-L because it could handle both conventional and command environments. I also have a 400E that needs to be run conventionally and the ZW-L was a perfect fit for me.

Brian

So why not keep the ZW-L is what I'm  asking. You can run anything with it. 

I tried to reach you by the e-mail address in your profile but they came back undeliverable. Is there another way?

Mike

Brain

For an overview of all the modern scale Hudson options available in 3 rail you may like to read the O Scale Locomotive Guide to Hudsons.

https://ogrforum.com/t...motive-guide-hudsons

I have a prewar 763E Hudson and have operated the more modern Hudsons (VL, ESE, etc). Obviously with the new ones you get more prototypical operation with slow speed and you get all the gadgets which I love. But still something about having that prewar engine that always makes me smile when I see it up on the shelf. The level of detail and work that went into it 80 years ago is something to be highly appreciated. And yes, it does take about 072 to run.

The only Hudsons I really know nothing about are the later 80s/early 90s versions but it sounds like they run similar to the older ones and may even be more fragile.

Great post! Always nice to read about a great engine.