844 update

JMILLER320, I cleaned up the formatting of your post and embedded the videos for you - BOTH of them.

You're welcome.

I don't have 71 minutes of time in my schedule to waste by watching this. I do, however, have time to make a new batch of popcorn. 

Is there a post on here to learn how to embed videos?

Thanks Rich.  I only watched the first part as the second part was not available earlier.  Ed is being very good on the first.  He explained things they found and doesn't place the blame on anyone.

Patrick, it's really easy. See the little film icon at the top of the reply box. Click on that and paste your URL. Done.

There is one slight drawback to using this function, and I'm not sure if Rich is aware of this. YouTube has changed its policy, and you can't access full screen from the embed. When you click on it, it opens another window directly on YouTube, then you can go full screen.

Could someone that watches these post a summary for those of us can't spend the time to listen to all of it?

sinclair posted:

Could someone that watches these post a summary for those of us can't spend the time to listen to all of it?

My thoughts exactly and you will receive a big Thank You.

Thanks Elliot .  Seems simple enough.  

I took the time to watch the videos and I don't think it was a "WASTE". It appears that they are doing a very complete, thorough and quality job on the rebuild.

It is past time to do away with all of the "negative waves man", stop the mud-slinging and see what happens. Looks to me like a lot of good has already been done!

I agree with Jim. Whether it's from Ed's operating procedures or previous maintenance, it looks like there's at least things happening. He talks that this should last 15-30 years with minimal future expense, (other than the next 1472) so I guess only time will tell if his shop force of 8 guys is competent.

 In the first video he  comments that the tubes were "rolling", not totally explaining what he means. We all know the tubes in the boiler can't roll free in the sheets since they should be welded at the rear tube sheet.  We'll know how well his work is if and when it passes a FRA Hydro test.

Yeah, I agree with you in total Big Jim. I found these video's very interesting, and those guys doing the work, seem to have done their home work.

Maybe some of the negative info that was passed on from Cheyenne, was done for a reason, but who knows, and who cares!...........

Guys,

Before I begin, let me clearly state that, I do not know the presenter personally in any manner, shape or form.  My opinions are strictly formed from what I overserved from the video's.

I just spent some time and closely watched both video's and I concur with Big Jim that it was very detailed and very informative.  The presentation was done in a professional manner keeping in mind the listening audience being composed of simply steam locomotive enthusiasts with no practical experience in the field of steam boiler repair.  

I learned quite a bit from watching the presentation and can appreciate why the job is taking as long as it has.  The rebuild is just that a total rebuild not a series of patch work to get the locomotive running again. 

Now I'm certain that there will be some argument wrt the length of time being spent getting it completed.  These video's can't answer that specifically, but it does elude to the complexity of the issues being addressed and the time that each of them take.  Not having ever worked in a locomotive shop I'm not capable of passing any judgement on the speed of the work being done.  However I have had to address taking apart old equipment apart and refurbishing them again to like new condition.  I know that process can at times be very challenging if other unexpected discoveries are made that will impact the time it takes to get the hardware cleaned up, repaired and reassembled. 

Not knowing the gentleman personally, on the video he came off as being very knowledgeable, through and dedicated to his mission.  He also came off as being a gentleman as his demeanor during the presentation was very professional and polite.  

I think those of you who are interested in the progress of the 844 project should spend the time to watch the video's before making judgement calls on the progress of the work or how issues are being addressed. 

Lastly, let's try and be civil in the responses as I'm certain that some of you who are passionate about the subject can get carried away at times.  Let's keep in mind that what we are discussing is about a Machine made of Iron that neither breathes nor is in want of sustenance.   It is an artifact that should be preserved for future generations to witness and enjoy.  So let us not attack one another personally please.

Allegheny

You said

“Not knowing the gentleman personally, on the video he came off as being very knowledgeable, through and dedicated to his mission.  He also came off as being a gentleman as his demeanor during the presentation was very professional and polite.”

I agree with your assessment of the tone of the talk if the listeners do not know the speaker or the subject matter.

The problem comes if the listener is someone who does know the speaker personally and/or is intimately familiar with the operation and maintenance of super power steam locomotives generally or UP 844 in particular.

While I do not know the speaker in the videos personally nor do I operate or maintain steam locomotives I have followed this topic closely enough over the last few years to have read much of the discussion on the state of the UP steam program including comments from those with steam operations and maintenance experience including at the UP.  Based on that, I think that I can pick up on what some will regard as very “negative waves” in Ed D.'s talk. Those who really know this topic may well take some of the comments as far worse than “negative waves.” At their worst, they could well be taken as dishonest and insulting to others in an attempt to cover up poor work practices performed at the insistence of the speaker.

Here are two examples. Others may find more.

1. Ed dickens said that the boiler tubes and superheater flues were removed due to leaks and he attributed the leaks to poor installation.

That may sound uncontentious on the surface. However, those tubes and flues were installed a decade ago by the UP as one of the final parts of a major boiler overhaul. That overhaul was supposed to last from 2005 to the next federally mandated ultrasonic inspection 15 years later, and beyond. So, those involved with the work could take that comment as blaming them for bad work that sidelined 844 years ahead of schedule.

What is worse, those in the steam operation and maintenance community recall that 844 had her tubes and flues removed early, in 2013, due to an alarming amount of corrosion and sediment inside 844s boiler. They widely attribute the corrosion and sediment to changes in feedwater treatment and blow down practices made by Ed Dickens while operating 844 between 2010 and its last service in 2013. Those people hear him blaming others for the bad outcome of changes he made. Very “negative waves!”

2. Ed dickens also attributed corrosion on the fire side of the lower portions of the door sheet to water coming from a drain line that ended below the cab floor, ran down past the jacket and lagging, down the backhead and through a staybolt telltale hole and accumulated behind the firebrick where it caused corrosion to the steel.

If you didn't follow all that I don't blame you. I found it confusing. If I have what Ed D. wrong please correct me. But if I took what he said correctly I can understand why people in the steam community, especially former UP steam crew members, do not trust and do not like this guy.

The injector can only work when there is steam pressure available. That means that it can only work when the boiler is hot. Really HOT. At 300 psi (844's operating pressure) water boils at over 400 degrees. So the lowest temperature anywhere in the boiler of 844 would normally be above 400 degrees. The fire brick on the inside of the fire box would be much, much hotter. But the outside of the boiler is at atmospheric pressure. So even if any water from a drain in the cab could run down to the inside of the fire brick the water would hit 212 and boil off virtually instantly anytime there was pressure to run the injector.

So the attribution of corrosion inside the firebox to poor work by the previous crew by dead ending a drain line too high would sound like bunk to those with a calibrated “negative wave” or “B.S.” detector. And those with a calibrated detector may also regard this statement as yet another intended to place blame on others while trying to deflect attention away from more likely causes. The causes suggested by those with previous work on UP or other steam locomotives are the previously mentioned change in water treatment that lead to the accumulation of sediment on the waterside of the fire box sheets. The sediment would also have prevented water circulation in the lower portions of the firebox sheets as well as the firebox ends of the lower boiler tubes and flues. The poor circulation would have caused poor heat transfer to the water in the boiler. This would have resulted in poor performance (and an increasing reliance on diesels, reportedly an observed phenomena in 2011, 2012 and 2013) and higher temperature and possible heat damage to the firebox sheets and firebox ends of the tubes and flues. The heat damage caused by poor circulation may have been exacerbated by the extensive use of more volatile No. 2 fuel oil instead of heavier oil. Try putting two inches of baked caustic mud in the bottom of a pan, put the pan on a stove burner set to high and see how long it takes to boil water and what the bottom of the pan looks like when the water does finally boil. It won't be pretty and be careful, it may emit negative waves.

I am certain that others with far more technical knowledge than I possess have picked up on many more similar instances in this and other talks by Ed D. Hopefully those in the railfan community who just don't want to hear any negative waves can understand that there are plenty that come from the current UP steam manager. In fact, he may be a 5000 watt negative wave transmitter. But if your receiver is tuned to the railfan band or even the diesel era UP management band it may not pick them up, even if you are in the same room.

Others, those tuned into the super power steam operation and maintenance band, have been nauseated for years by the manager's negative waves.  It seems impolite to blame them for sating the fact that they are sickened by the sounds that others can not or do not want to hear.

BTW:  Did Ed D. really say that they painted the inside of the boiler?

Nice response Ted.

1) Concerning the asbestos on 844, the current manager confused the remaining asbestos that was on 4014, which was know to still be there prior to ever moving the locomotive back to Cheyenne. All asbestos was removed by the UP Omaha Shops, back in 1985.

2) Concerning the false information about "leaking flues/tubes, the only reason that the flues' tubes HAD to be removed, back in 2013, was to gain access to the lower portions of the boiler, where all the concrete, mud, and scale had settled due to lack of proper boiler washing procedures and insufficient blowdowns throughout each days trip. Everyone seems to forget/overlook the fact that, in 2012, the Wilson Blowdown Separator system had been repiped so as NOT to produce all that white mineral deposit on top of the turret & cab. As a result of that repiping, Neither the Fireman's nor the Engineer's remote blown downs could be used effectively if people were standing near the Engineer's sid of the locomotive, as that was were the blowdown system exhausted all the wet steam.

3) Yes, there is a special type of boiler interior paint (forgot the name) used throughout the industry.

RickO posted:

What about the "water glass drains" that were saturating the outside of the boiler and leaking into the firebox?

The "water glass drains" are/were piped to below cab floor level. Also, the "water glass drains" are generally opened once or twice a day, in order to verify proper function of the water level within the gauge glass.

What about the rubber sand line that deteriorated allowing the sand to accumulate under the jacketing? A rubber line against hot metal sounds like a bad idea.

There were no "rubber sand lines" under the jacket! The only "rubber" involved with steam locomotive sand lines MIGHT be a rubber tip on the end of the sand pipe in front of each wheel.

 

Ted, that was an excellent report. Thanks for taking the time to watch the videos and prepare that report. It shows that not much has changed out there. ED is still blaming the old crew, just not in so many words.

The problem that knowledgeable people in the steam community have with all this can be summed up in one word - CREDIBILITY.  ED has none.

Thanks for the replies Hotwater.

I deleted my post after going back over Teds very informative post.

Thankyou Ted.

Well if the old crew did not do the sloppy work was it the UP repair crews that worked on it tha did all the goofy repair.  At the show where the talk was given the blowdown muffler was didcussed and was internally broke and did not remove any sediment.  This was on video. The video must have been edited.  I remember in the last steve lee video he showed some of the crude weld studs to studs and mentioned the former up crew did a rush repair.

Exactly right as he claims the reason 844 is down is because of leaking tubes/ flues all because of over rolling. Exactly how does he know this? Has the man ever rolled a flue?? He may have rolled something in the mile high but it wasn't flues/tubes 

Halfway thru the first one he says something like "The Wilson Separator wasn't working"...I was thinking it did work well until Ed re-plumbed it!

Remember he's talking to a bunch of model railroaders in those videos. People that soak up his propaganda bs. Why doesn't he talk/ present himself to his peers instead?? Isn't their some kind of steam operators association in the USA?? 

Casey Jones2 posted:

Exactly right as he claims the reason 844 is down is because of leaking tubes/ flues all because of over rolling. Exactly how does he know this? Has the man ever rolled a flue?? He may have rolled something in the mile high but it wasn't flues/tubes 

Halfway thru the first one he says something like "The Wilson Separator wasn't working"...I was thinking it did work well until Ed re-plumbed it!

Remember he's talking to a bunch of model railroaders in those videos. People that soak up his propaganda bs. Why doesn't he talk/ present himself to his peers instead?? Isn't their some kind of steam operators association in the USA?? 

Yes, there certainly is!  He would be caught within 100 miles of one of their technical meetings, as he would instantly be shown-up for what he is.

Well, some model railroaders are also exposed to or operate real railroad equipment, but I think it's more that the videos are to "sell the sizzle" and cover the current management's incompetence.

I've seen this before in business, where you gloss over the issues with sounding important and throwing terminology around to look like there is a thorough and good job being done, to try to avoid the obvious questions, such as when will the locomotive be completed and why has it taken so long?

ironlake2 posted:

 At the show where the talk was given the blowdown muffler was didcussed and was internally broke and did not remove any sediment. 

Hot can correct me, but the blowdown muffler is not there to "remove sediment." That's what the blowdown procedure is for. The muffler just "muffles" it so that the engine doesn't have to have a clearing 100 feet to the side of the engine to blow down.

THANK YOU to Ted Hikel for the summary and analysis, also to Hot Water and others for additional details.

I didn't wish to watch the long videos myself.

smd4 posted:

ironlake2 posted:

 At the show where the talk was given the blowdown muffler was didcussed and was internally broke and did not remove any sediment. 

Hot can correct me, but the blowdown muffler is not there to "remove sediment." That's what the blowdown procedure is for. The muffler just "muffles" it so that the engine doesn't have to have a clearing 100 feet to the side of the engine to blow down.

First, the Union Pacific "modern" steam locomotives are equipped with the Wilson Blowdow System, which involves a "turbine style" separator mounted on top of the boiler, forward of the cab. The proper term used on the UP was "sludge remover", and when either the Fireman or Engineer operated their remote control, air operated, blown down valve (located near the outer lowest portion of the firebox), the dirty boiler water was piped up to the "turbine separator device".  The internal centrifugal force inside the turbine, flung the liquids outward, collected, and then piped downward to an excite chute right under the Engineer's side of the cab, thus routing the sludge out onto the right-of-way. The Engineer could look down and watch the discharge continuing to blowdown until the water discharge was relatively clean/clear. 

Back to the "turbine separator", in the center of this device there is a large, 10 inch or so, round discharge opening where the steam vapor exits vertically, expelling the "spent steam" into the atmosphere. As a result of this regular blowing down action, most UP steam locomotives have that light color pattern of mineral deposits spread all over the top of the turret jacketing and the cab roof. Locomotives assigned to the famous "Overland Route" westward across Nebraska and Wyoming, where the water is heavily loaded with dissolved solids, were generally covered with the white mineral deposits from constantly blowing down. The key point being, the insides of the boilers were kept clean, and the "sludge" was discharged back onto the ground. In fact, the water was so bad, that the UP scheduled complete boiler washes every 15 days, instead of the Federally mandated every 30 days!

Thus, the UP steam locomotives, especially the 844, the 3985, and 4014 do NOT have any "mufflers" involved in their blowdown systems, as Mr. ironlake2 states. I can attest to the terrific noise from the Wilson turbine separator whenever the remote control blowdowns are used, i.e. there ain't no MUFFLER"!  

To All

I thought that Allegheny's response to the videos was reasonable.  To most observers the presentation would seem polite and professional.  And yet many steam insiders would find the same talk to be something between not credible to downright deceptive.  I was hoping to explain how two groups of reasonable people could watch the same talk and come away with very different reactions.  Based on several of your responses I believe that I managed to do so.  If that is the case I hope that it leads to a little more understanding of why the subject of UP steam, something that always used to be a 100% feel good topic, has become so  controversial.   At least all my forum reading on this subject over the last several years has been worth something.

My take away from the videos is that that their will be no UP steam for Cheyenne Frontier Days for the fourth year in a row.  Maybe we can revisit this topic the same time next year and see if it will be five years in a row.  Will defects in the running gear or unknown materials in the springs be the controversies in 2017?  Will there be a major change in the direction of the program by then?  Will UPY 4449 be asked to pull the Denver Post Special?

Meanwhile, NKP 765, N&W 611 and SP 4449 and other locomotives will be out on the road.  Get out and enjoy them if you can and say thanks to Rich, Hot Water and all the others in the steam community who have worked together to keep them running. 

For those that are swayed by Ed’s smooth presentations, I’ll give you a little analogy. I have an Associate’s Degree in automotive repair and have worked for over thirty years on cars and nearly everything else held together by nuts and bolts, including rebuilding over forty car engines. I am a HUGE auto racing fan, stock cars in particular and even worked as a road crewman and went over the wall doing pit stops in the ARCA series.  I LOVE engines and engine technology. I could stand before you and give an off the cuff lecture on the designs of the six Chevy engines used in NASCAR Sprint Cup in the last forty years ( Small Block Chevy 23 degree, Small Block Chevy 18 degree, SB2, SB2.2, R07 carbureted, RO7 fuel injected) that could go on for an hour or more. I could probably impress 90% of you to the point that you would think that I had a hand in designing them. The bare plain facts are that I’m about as qualified to actually machine and build a race winning RO7 engine as I am to fly to the moon. Think about THAT the next time Ed opens his mouth……

Well Dieselbob, the big difference between you and the current manager in Cheyenne is; you have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in your field! While,,,,,,,,,,,

I would be willing to bet that there may have been no one in the audience that had the technical knowledge to be offended by the "blame game" being hashed over in some of the above.  When I worked for the RR it was very common for workers to spend a lot of time pointing out the deficiencies of management.   I suppose in fairness it is common in every occupation.   Is this what the discussion is coming down to?  The deficiencies of Ed? 

wb47 posted:

  Is this what the discussion is coming down to?  The deficiencies of Ed? 

No, not really. The "deficiencies" of his management style, technical knowledge/directives, and misfortunes/miscalculations during his short tenure as manager. 

Thanks Ted.  You are very much a statesman.  Thanks again to Rich and HW for more details.  I especially enjoyed reading about the turbine separator.

Ted, you articulated very well what I think some of us see, and some cannot.  A lot depends on how calibrated your BS meter is too.  Some are more trusting, some or not.  I always question the motivation behind anything.

Is "blowing down" a steam engine boiler like draining your hot water heater to get the sediment out?

CONCRETE?  How can a boiler produce that?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Is "blowing down" a steam engine boiler like draining your hot water heater to get the sediment out?

Yes, pretty much.

CONCRETE?  How can a boiler produce that?

Not blowing down the boiler, especially when using an unproven, VERY aggressive water treatment program, simply allows all those dissolved solids (minerals) to fall to the lower locations inside the boiler, and STAY THERE. Thus turning into "concrete" as the constant buildup of sludge gets baked onto the internal steel portions of the boiler. Remember, it is not unusual for a locomotive the size of 844 or 4449 to use 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of water A DAY! Just think of the huge quantity of crap, that remains in the bottom of the boiler, if not blown out REGULARLY.  For example, put a quart of home tap water in a pot, and boil the water away. What's left in the bottom of that pot?

Hot Water posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Is "blowing down" a steam engine boiler like draining your hot water heater to get the sediment out?

Yes, pretty much.

CONCRETE?  How can a boiler produce that?

Not blowing down the boiler, especially when using an unproven, VERY aggressive water treatment program, simply allows all those dissolved solids (minerals) to fall to the lower locations inside the boiler, and STAY THERE. Thus turning into "concrete" as the constant buildup of sludge gets baked onto the internal steel portions of the boiler. Remember, it is not unusual for a locomotive the size of 844 or 4449 to use 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of water A DAY! Just think of the huge quantity of crap, that remains in the bottom of the boiler, if not blown out REGULARLY.  For example, put a quart of home tap water in a pot, and boil the water away. What's left in the bottom of that pot?

 

I DO boil water when I have some really bad sinus infections.  I do see the sediments at the bottom.  Houston water has all sorts of mature in it.

wb47 posted:

 Is this what the discussion is coming down to?  The deficiencies of Ed? 

This is what EVERY discussion of the UP steam program devolves to, without fail and always from the same people.

p51 posted:

wb47 posted:

 Is this what the discussion is coming down to?  The deficiencies of Ed? 

This is what EVERY discussion of the UP steam program devolves to, without fail and always from the same people.

So, Mr. Bishop, you LIKE what the current manager has accomplish in just a short 5 years?

Hot Water posted:

p51 posted:

wb47 posted:

 Is this what the discussion is coming down to?  The deficiencies of Ed? 

This is what EVERY discussion of the UP steam program devolves to, without fail and always from the same people.

So, Mr. Bishop, you LIKE what the current manager has accomplish in just a short 5 years?

I don't like nothing has run in a long while. What has led to that, well, I don't have any idea of the details.

If your countless posts on the subject were limited to that and not a never-ending string of character assassinations (which in all fairness might be correct, but I don't have a clue either way and I simply don't accept other people's word for such things because people often do have axes to grind in cases like this, especially in aviation preservation circles) on issues other than failing to get something under steam, I wouldn't be nearly as fed up reading the same stuff every time the subject comes up on every single forum I see, from you and the usual 3-4 others who do the same.

I've written on this point before, so it can't possibly be news to you.

I just deleted several very negative and very personal attacks from this thread.

This is a thread about the presentation which ED made at the Rocky Mountain RR club. It is not a thread to attack a well respected member of the steam community...someone who has been working on and firing steam locomotives for most of his adult life.

Obviously there is a difference of opinion here (and on virtually every other railroad-oriented web site) about the state of the UP steam program. Some of you think ED is doing a fine job while others don't. It's as simple as that. What some of you call "...hearsay and innuendo..."  can be supported with demonstrable facts, but you don't want to see that because it doesn't fit your agenda. That's fine...you are entitled to your opinion and have expressed it here.

But when the posts get vindictively personal, as they did before I deleted several posts above this one, that's where I draw the line. We are not going to go there...period.

Nothing will be gained by either side by continuing this discussion. I am closing the thread.