Mark,
Thanks again for your original post so that we are up to speed on real or even just potential activity. Hey, I am an optimist, too. 
Tom
Becky, Tom & Gabe Morgan posted:Disclaimer: we're life members at ARMM and we live too far away to volunteer.
When the new museum opened, we wondered how they were going to maintain it. Grants to open a museum aren't easy, but they're easier than getting maintenance money. The building is beautiful and about four times as big as the museum actually needed. The gift shop alone is as big as a lot of storefrontsIt was obvious even to us that using the building was going to cost a bundle.
As for the collection, Rich is right about the "historical fabric" people and the lack of understanding about boiler rules and regulations. They're not bad people. They truly don't understand machinery that was meant to be renewed as needed, rather than a fancy chair whose original upholstery is the item's value. They also think that all she needs is put back together so they can steam her up and run around the yard. The idea of undoing some of the ill-advised repairs from the long debacle horrifies them, and they don't see why she should have to have all those Form 4 calculations and so on.
They have a bunch of nice well-meaning volunteers who have "old fuddy-duddies" in the way-- you know, people who want to make sure the locomotive is safe to be fired up at all. They don't know the safety regulations or they assume they'll get an automatic pass on them. They don't have any good cost estimates; they tend to look blankly and say "But we already have all those parts." Yes, and some are worn out, and the huge boiler patch was mutilated before it could be inspected, so odds are the whole boiler course would need replaced, if not the whole thing. I have always thought a new boiler with the old one used as a display would be the best idea from an insurance standpoint.
As far as where to run 1361 besides the yards, they don't know. The Everett Railroad would be the reasonable choice, but it's not the Curve and nothing else will do. Meanwhile, there are all sorts of political reasons for this, that and the other (as there are in any town,) and knowing how to navigate those will be crucial to the museum's survival as well as any restoration of 1361.
The fuddy duddy comment had nothing to do about any repairs not being done correctly! There just happens to be negativity on this forum when it comes to restorations of locomotives! Especially when it doesn't involve certain individuals. I have seen some progress that they have made on pieces of this locomotive. Like the ash pan that was completely rebuilt. However not one post or picture of it on here. I say Good for them that's one less piece laying around. Those people need to be supported and not chastised for waisting their time. I will say this, there is plenty of small projects that can be finished on this locomotive while they gather funds to work on the boiler. It's probably much easier to get funding for a boiler if all the other parts for the engine are restored and ready to go!
RLHarner posted:The fuddy duddy comment had nothing to do about any repairs not being done correctly! There just happens to be negativity on this forum when it comes to restorations of locomotives! Especially when it doesn't involve certain individuals...
If that is supposed to be a shot at me it misses the mark. I'm not a mechanical guy, I'm an operations guy. I don't have the faintest idea how to manage or perform the mechanical restoration of a steam locomotive. I marvel at the skills of the mechanical crew we have on the 765. They return the favor by politely telling me not to touch the tools. 
Again I repeat, it is not "...negativity..." to provide a realistic assessment of their situation. They have a locomotive that has already been badly botched by two former failed "restoration" attempts. They have no money. They have no plan to get any money. And many of the "historical fabric" folks are still in management positions within that organization. I'm sorry, but that's not a recipe for success.
I've seen about a dozen attempts like this come and go in my life. Very few of them ever amount to anything. If someone can put together the plans (financial, business and mechanical) to get this locomotive running again, more power to them.
That K4 embodies a tremendous amount of PRR history. If I'm not mistaken, there were more of those K4's built than any other type of steam locomotive. There was a reason why the PRR was known as the "Standard Railroad of the World."
I wonder how much it would cost to build one from scratch?.........
Anywho, here she is in 1988, posted on James McCann's youtube channel. Hope this isn't the last time we get to see her run 
(in color)
If I am not mistaken I don't think many K4s were saved which would make 1361 more valuable.
jim pastorius posted:If I am not mistaken I don't think many K4s were saved which would make 1361 more valuable.
The "other" K4s, #3750, is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, right across the street from the Strasburg Rail Road. Plus, that "other" K4s was reportedly to be in far better condition than the 1361 when it was removed from the curve.
Out of the thousands made, there is one complete K4 in existence. The "K4" in Altoona is a pile of valuable scrap. Sad.
Here is the ash pan - The tender is now married with the locomotive boiler.
The frame and drivers are in the neighboring building being worked on. the good news is everything is back in one place. Looks like there is an inventory of parts taking place. Hope they are all there.
Yes there needs to be interest generated to infuse more cash for all this ageing equipment. All that I see on their website is the next concert schedule for a Van Halen and Ozzy Ozbuorne tribute.
If there was more of a dynamic display at this sight with this equipment, I am sure it would attract more people. (sort of like the chicken and the egg scenario right now)
The concert monies probably supports the museum.
As far as monies spent and mis-management and the poor restoration escapades of the K4's - that is water under the bridge, there needs to be interest generated again to make it happen and hopefully that will happen with new management.
The bright side is, its not sitting out on a siding rusting away...
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Thanks for the info. Yes, be grateful the parts are indoors. It scares me when something is torn down to "parts" because they have a habit of walking away. The failed past restorations are water over the dam but still part of the record of failure. they need a duplicate of "Fire up 611 or 1361". their "marketing" leaves a lot to be desired. Hope to get up there before the snow flies.
J Daddy posted:
Yes there needs to be interest generated to infuse more cash for all this ageing equipment. All that I see on their website is the next concert schedule for a Van Halen and Ozzy Ozbuorne tribute.
Their concert series has been a huge success.
John, to actually see any progress on this engine you would have to go to a Facebook page not associated with the museum. The four individuals from time to time post pictures of their progress on components they are working on. I applaud them for having continued interest in restoring this engine. Maybe instead of taking about how bad a failure past efforts have been, maybe we should be supporting their efforts with some kind words or thoughts! Anything is better than nothing!
You will have to share the links with me. All I see on Facebook is a bunch of nay-sayers.... I will agree with the post - "everything is very tight lipped"...
Some of you people don't have a clue on how tough and competitive fund raising is. For every $1 there are 100 people with their hand out. To people giving out money and grants your past successes is like a credit report so the past two FAIlURES at restoring 1361 are very important and doesn't help at all. I took a short course at Pitt on fund raising and you have to have your act together. Don't minimize the past failures-it matters. You have to have a business plan, budget, leadership and some friends help. Then you might get some money. When I was at the train club we had our own ,new building, a yearly money source, a budget that was followed and leadership and it took many years to start getting grants. A "Good job" and a pat on back is rather simplistic, I bet they would rather have tools that are needed and supplies. I wish them well, they have a long hard road ahead of them. No one wants to see 1361 run more than I do.
What Jim has said in the post above this one is right on the mark. The failures of the past two restoration attempts are not just "water under the bridge." They will continue to plague the current effort to raise money. From a donor's point of view, the thought process is, "I already gave you money once (or maybe twice) and you've got nothing to show for it. Not again."
This organization has the deck stacked against them. They have to overcome the mistakes of the past and convince new donors that this is truly a new beginning with new people in charge and a clear path to success. That is a TOUGH assignment!
You rarely get a second chance to make a first impression, but that's exactly what these folks have to do. I don't envy them on this struggle.
It is what it is. I am not taking sides on the stigma of failure. The 1361 will not fire up without a group that is engaged in the project.... until that happens it will sit in pieces.
Raising money for a cause indeed has to be regimented but you just don't raise your hands and give up...
J Daddy posted:It is what it is. I am not taking sides on the stigma of failure. The 1361 will not fire up without a group that is engaged in the project.... until that happens it will sit in pieces.
Raising money for a cause indeed has to be regimented but you just don't raise your hands and give up...
Just my opinion but, the major problem is STILL; what direction the "1361 group" desires to take.
1) Cosmetic restoration.
2) Make the current boiler FRA compliant at a reduced boiler pressure
3) Make the current boiler FRA compliant by expensive up-grades/repairs.
4) Make a new boiler, manufactured to current FRA regulations.
The real problem still seems to be the museum "management" desires "everything to be remain original", vs. the reality of have a functional steam locomotive in the 21st Century!
Hot Water posted:The real problem still seems to be the museum "management" desires "everything to be remain original", vs. the reality of have a functional steam locomotive in the 21st Century!
Bingo.
The two philosophies are diametrically opposed. You cannot have both.
Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:It is what it is. I am not taking sides on the stigma of failure. The 1361 will not fire up without a group that is engaged in the project.... until that happens it will sit in pieces.
Raising money for a cause indeed has to be regimented but you just don't raise your hands and give up...
Just my opinion but, the major problem is STILL; what direction the "1361 group" desires to take.
1) Cosmetic restoration.
2) Make the current boiler FRA compliant at a reduced boiler pressure
3) Make the current boiler FRA compliant by expensive up-grades/repairs.
4) Make a new boiler, manufactured to current FRA regulations.
The real problem still seems to be the museum "management" desires "everything to be remain original", vs. the reality of have a functional steam locomotive in the 21st Century!
The direction and I am sure everyone will correct me if I am wrong on this, is to get it fired up and running again...
And if it was going to be done right than there is only one direction.
J Daddy posted:Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:It is what it is. I am not taking sides on the stigma of failure. The 1361 will not fire up without a group that is engaged in the project.... until that happens it will sit in pieces.
Raising money for a cause indeed has to be regimented but you just don't raise your hands and give up...
Just my opinion but, the major problem is STILL; what direction the "1361 group" desires to take.
1) Cosmetic restoration.
2) Make the current boiler FRA compliant at a reduced boiler pressure
3) Make the current boiler FRA compliant by expensive up-grades/repairs.
4) Make a new boiler, manufactured to current FRA regulations.
The real problem still seems to be the museum "management" desires "everything to be remain original", vs. the reality of have a functional steam locomotive in the 21st Century!
The direction and I am sure everyone will correct me if I am wrong on this, is to get it fired up and running again...
You have oversimplified "direction". In order to comply with FRA regulations, including calculating a new Form 4, they can NOT "just fire it up"!
And if it was going to be done right than there is only one direction.
NO, not really! As I posted above, there is more than one "right way" to fire it up. It all depends on how much money they can raise as well as what "direction" the museum management wants, vs. what the volunteer workers, who may be dealing with reality, want.
"dealing with reality,"
Like I said there is only one direction.
Panther97 posted:J Daddy posted:
Yes there needs to be interest generated to infuse more cash for all this ageing equipment. All that I see on their website is the next concert schedule for a Van Halen and Ozzy Ozbuorne tribute.
Their concert series has been a huge success.
Yes I found that out when I opened one of the closet doors in the above pictured caboose and a bunch of empty beer cans came rolling out...
Wouldn't 3750 be a better candidate for restoration back to steam? Does 3750 have less complications regarding how the work could be done? Is it a better option than 1361?
If 3750 was restored then would it be so important if 1361 was restored as well or just preserved instead?
Ukaflyer posted:Wouldn't 3750 be a better candidate for restoration back to steam? Does 3750 have less complications regarding how the work could be done? Is it a better option than 1361?
PRR 3750 would have been a better candidate in the very beginning. However, 3750 would STILL have to be brought into compliance with CURRENT FRA regulations, i.e. the firebox would have be redesigned/replaced, or simply operate it at reduced boiler pressure.
If 3750 was restored then would it be so important if 1361 was restored as well or just preserved instead?
Too big of a "what if" scenario, in my opinion.
Ukaflyer posted:Wouldn't 3750 be a better candidate for restoration back to steam? Does 3750 have less complications regarding how the work could be done? Is it a better option than 1361?
If 3750 was restored then would it be so important if 1361 was restored as well or just preserved instead?
I don't see 3750 ever leaving its comfortable indoor display. It has been saved twice by the scrapers torch and its static restoration looks outstanding at the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.
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J Daddy posted:Ukaflyer posted:Wouldn't 3750 be a better candidate for restoration back to steam? Does 3750 have less complications regarding how the work could be done? Is it a better option than 1361?
If 3750 was restored then would it be so important if 1361 was restored as well or just preserved instead?
I don't see 3750 ever leaving its comfortable indoor display. It has been saved twice by the scrapers torch and its static restoration looks outstanding at the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.
Apparently you missed it when they moved her outside a number of years ago. She's still sitting outside, you can even see her on Google Street View in front of the museum.
Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:It is what it is. I am not taking sides on the stigma of failure. The 1361 will not fire up without a group that is engaged in the project.... until that happens it will sit in pieces.
Raising money for a cause indeed has to be regimented but you just don't raise your hands and give up...
Just my opinion but, the major problem is STILL; what direction the "1361 group" desires to take.
1) Cosmetic restoration.
2) Make the current boiler FRA compliant at a reduced boiler pressure
3) Make the current boiler FRA compliant by expensive up-grades/repairs.
4) Make a new boiler, manufactured to current FRA regulations.
The real problem still seems to be the museum "management" desires "everything to be remain original", vs. the reality of have a functional steam locomotive in the 21st Century!
The direction and I am sure everyone will correct me if I am wrong on this, is to get it fired up and running again...
You have oversimplified "direction". In order to comply with FRA regulations, including calculating a new Form 4, they can NOT "just fire it up"!
And if it was going to be done right than there is only one direction.
NO, not really! As I posted above, there is more than one "right way" to fire it up. It all depends on how much money they can raise as well as what "direction" the museum management wants, vs. what the volunteer workers, who may be dealing with reality, want.
According to the people working on the restoration the decision is to restore the current boiler. The reason given, has to do with the shape of the belpaire firebox and the steel that connects it to the barrel of the boiler. That section happens to be a stamped piece that would require a heavy die to be made. The cost to reproduce that particular section would be quite high. This leaves the only option to replace the crown sheet and weld in the remaining sections. Not to mention they have all new tubes / flues for this boiler sitting in storage.
Yes, I think a number of the Pennsy locomotives underwent the removal of their asbestos boiler jackets. They are sitting outside, rusting, waiting for the roundhouse to be built. 
George
cta4391 posted:J Daddy posted:Ukaflyer posted:Wouldn't 3750 be a better candidate for restoration back to steam? Does 3750 have less complications regarding how the work could be done? Is it a better option than 1361?
If 3750 was restored then would it be so important if 1361 was restored as well or just preserved instead?
I don't see 3750 ever leaving its comfortable indoor display. It has been saved twice by the scrapers torch and its static restoration looks outstanding at the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.
Apparently you missed it when they moved her outside a number of years ago. She's still sitting outside, you can even see her on Google Street View in front of the museum.
Good Lord! your right! How in the heck did she end up out there?... I even took photos of here sitting in the yard and it did not dawn on me...
I think the BB-1 Rats and the 6755 had my attention that day...
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G3750 posted:Yes, I think a number of the Pennsy locomotives underwent the removal of their asbestos boiler jackets. They are sitting outside, rusting, waiting for the roundhouse to be built.
George
George - This made them safe for viewing indoors... note that there is ongoing work to preserve these locomotives in their new shop. There is talk that a round house will be built to house the outdoor locomotives in the future...
I was impressed with their new paint shop and repair facility...
Not too soon either, because old rivets is looking long in the tooth....
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Fortunately during the 1361's brief rebirth in the late 1980s, it was well-documented by the faithful, fellow rail photog John Floyd caught the 1361 on a excursion out of York,PA. in August 1988.
It is passing SW9 #84 of the Maryland & PA. RR.
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Yes, and I bought a video of it running and like an idiot I donated it to my train club at the time. I thought it would keep running -silly me!!
OGR Webmaster postedThat K4 embodies a tremendous amount of PRR history. If I'm not mistaken, there were more of those K4's built than any other type of steam locomotive. There was a reason why the PRR was known as the "Standard Railroad of the World."
Minor correction. The K4 class comprised 425 locomotives.
Both the L1 (574 engines) and I1 (598 engines) classes eclipsed the K4 class size.
PS: As a fellow fuddy duddy, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Thanks loads for the photos of old 1361 !! Appreciate them. Gives one hope, at least all those loose parts are cleaned and primed. I read that some past repair work was really bad. Hope that will not occur again. Now, if only that beautiful boiler were in a repair shop !!
We are all ware of the boile problems but what is the condition of the frame, cylinders, running gear etc ?? Has any work been done on them ?? I read that Strasberg is enlarging their shop, they do boiler work-maybe they will take an IOU ??
jim pastorius posted:, they do boiler work-maybe they will take an IOU ??
I would SERIOUSLY doubt it.
Would you take an I.O.U. from a mismanaged project?
Rusty
Good evening Jim,
The frame, front pilot truck with axles and wheels, trailing truck with axle and wheels, drive wheels,axles and bearing boxes, connecting rods and valve linkages, cylinders, and I believe the cab are finished and ready to be installed.
The items are in storage close by the museum.
MarkStrittmatter posted:Good evening Jim,
The frame, front pilot truck with axles and wheels, trailing truck with axle and wheels, drive wheels,axles and bearing boxes, connecting rods and valve linkages, cylinders, and I believe the cab are finished and ready to be installed.
The items are in storage close by the museum.
I am glad, to see people talking about what is finished on this locomotive. This engine has a more things finished for it than what most people think! Even the journals are converted to roller bearings.
The only thing it lacks is finishing the boiler. It is not an impossible task but will take some effort and money to make it right! I applaud the efforts of the guys trying to get it together!
RLHarner posted:MarkStrittmatter posted:Good evening Jim,
The frame, front pilot truck with axles and wheels, trailing truck with axle and wheels, drive wheels,axles and bearing boxes, connecting rods and valve linkages, cylinders, and I believe the cab are finished and ready to be installed.
The items are in storage close by the museum.
I am glad, to see people talking about what is finished on this locomotive. This engine has a more things finished for it than what most people think! Even the journals are converted to roller bearings.
The driver axles have been converted to roller bearings? How was THAT accomplished?
The only thing it lacks is finishing the boiler. It is not an impossible task but will take some effort and money to make it right! I applaud the efforts of the guys trying to get it together!
Good evening Mr Harner,
No I don't believe the drive axles were converted to roller style bearings.
I believe it was discussed but never ever done due to the amount of reengineering and design costs to basically replace the current Pennsy design.
I could be wrong though.
