There were several steam locomotive restorations that converted the driver axles to roller bearings. Several of then failed fairly quickly. Timken got involved and studied the applications and the failures. They concluded that existing steam locomotives should not be converted to roller bearings, at least not Timken AP roller bearings, because it reduced that section of the axle too much, the change in section was too abrupt, and it was not possible to get the precision in the lateral direction required to get the bearings to properly share the lateral load. Steam locomotives built with driver axle roller bearings are not built anything like locomotives with plain bronze bearings. A Timken VP of engineering presented the the results of their investigation and conclusions at the ARM conference in St Louis several years ago.
MarkStrittmatter posted:Good evening Mr Harner,
No I don't believe the drive axles were converted to roller style bearings.
I believe it was discussed but never ever done due to the amount of reengineering and design costs to basically replace the current Pennsy design.
I could be wrong though.
I never said drivers. Tender trucks, trailing truck I know have.
OGR Webmaster posted:Rule292 posted:Without going political or partisan political, the Commonwealth of PA is in debt for millions of public debt and unlikely to fund any restoration any time soon.
There is nothing "political or partisan" about this. The state of PA is not involved in this at all.
The two failed restoration attempts were privately funded. However, the people involved were more concerned about preserving the "historical fabric" of the locomotive than complying with the FRA boiler regs in place today. That led to hand-wringing over the construction of a new firebox because that would "...destroy the historical fabric..." of the locomotive. New steel, you see. We can't do that!
Install a modern air brake system? Oh the horror! We can't do that, either! It will "...destroy the historical..."
You get the picture.
If the Fort Wayne RR Historical Society had taken the same approach with the restoration of the 765, it would still be sitting under the pigeons in Lawton Park in downtown Fort Wayne having never turned a wheel.
I certainly wasn't implying that the state or federal government was involved with either of the 1361 restoration attempts, Rich.
Simply stating that the fact that those who hold the purse strings have a massive amount of debt that may play into any possible plan to seek public funding.
But then again this is an election year and it's pretty common to hand out from the public till in recompense for a vote.
With the economic sag in middle Pennsylvania that just might be the only hope for 1361 short of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet becoming a Pennsy fan.
This is a subject I have long since given up trying to understand. With all the conflicting info and mud slinging (this was the assured thread-locking subject in RR circles before the UP steam program problems came around), I long ago gave up even trying to figure out what was accurate.
But no matter how you sit on the issue, 1361 is a good case study on how NOT to handle a steam locomotive. It ran for what, about a year, right? I remember at the time that some fans didn't even find out it was running until it wasn't anymore.
Dare I say, if people had known what was going to became of this K4, some would have demanded they'd left it where it was behind the fence at Horseshoe Curve.
I've never been a big PRR (or any other Northeast RR, for that matter) fan, but I do wish I could have seen this under steam. I now wonder if I'll ever live long enough to just see it looking as complete as it does in the above photo!
As I recall, most of the funding for the restoration of 1361 came from the State of Pennsylvania. Following I'd from Wikipedia.
"1361 was dismantled in 1996 and moved to Steamtown in Scranton. It was to be restored through a partnership between Steamtown, the University of Scranton and the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona.[4] After an initial grant of $420,000, Governor of Pennsylvania Tom Ridge released an additional $600,000 in March 2000.[4] The restoration was forced to slow exponentially because "every broken pin and bolt had to be replaced with handmade duplicates."[4] Scheduled completion dates kept being pushed back and, after 13 years, the restoration had cost $1.7 million.[2][6] Most of the smaller components of 1361 were inventoried and returned to Altoona in 2007, when the museum stopped paying out funding until the rest of the locomotive, consisting mostly of the boiler, was returned to the museum.[7]"
Funny, when you get any government agency into funding almost any historical preservation effort, it always will cost more than the initial amount.
A steam locomotive, much more so. Most of us know that a million bucks can vanish very quickly when you're talking about getting a steam loco up and running!
Meanwhile, the EBT rusts into eternity. Very sad.
Please forgive me if these are dumb questions. I just spent an hour Googling. How was Conrail involved in removing 1361 from Horseshoe Curve? Only as the railroad who moved it, or was there a Conrail steam program in the works? Was the 1986 restoration done on Conrail's dime? From Wikipedia "A year later, the main bearing and the drive axle suffered a catastrophic failure." How did the 1986 restoration only take a year (or year and a half by another source)? Was the whole project rushed, and this lead to other problems in time? How did Conrail not catch whatever the problem was with the axle and bearing during the 1986 restoration?
Sam Jumper posted:Please forgive me if these are dumb questions. I just spent an hour Googling. How was Conrail involved in removing 1361 from Horseshoe Curve? Only as the railroad who moved it, or was there a Conrail steam program in the works? Was the 1986 restoration done on Conrail's dime? From Wikipedia "A year later, the main bearing and the drive axle suffered a catastrophic failure." How did the 1986 restoration only take a year (or year and a half by another source)? Was the whole project rushed, and this lead to other problems in time? How did Conrail not catch whatever the problem was with the axle and bearing during the 1986 restoration?
These aren't dumb questions at all. That said, good luck finding answers to them. There was so much back-and-forth finger pointing and blame gaming going on, I wouldn't rely on ANY single person to give you a correct answer.
Seriously, you think there's a lot of back-and-forth online over the current UP steam program? That's nothing compared to the bandwidth expended on 1361 at the height of the annoyance with the entire situation. I think you don't hear as much about it as nothing's gone on with 1361 of any substance in so long, people simply gave up thinking they'll ever even see the locomotive back in one piece again, and forget seeing her run under her own power...
At least, that's what it seemed like to me, anyway. I personally gave up trying to understand any of it ages ago.
NOTE: I am referring to what has already elapsed with 1361, not any current efforts.
According to the one recent post over 1 1/2 million dollars of Pa. tax dollars were spent on this in a failed attempt to get it on the rails running. the total lack of info and truth to all this is so annoying, frustrating and has people disgusted and angry about the whole thing. Spending over a million dollars with no real accomplishment to show for it would not impress people who give out grant money. There has never been an audit or accounting o dollars spent but this is typical of Pa. govt. BTW- two of the bombers came in today and another bomber and a P51C is due tomorrow. If 1361 looked as good, I would cry !!
If the original restoration crew would have came to the internet for advice we'd have had 1361 finished and running so fine she'd be the protect engine for Amtrak in Harrisburg by now. 
OGR Webmaster posted:Rule292 posted:Without going political or partisan political, the Commonwealth of PA is in debt for millions of public debt and unlikely to fund any restoration any time soon.
There is nothing "political or partisan" about this. The state of PA is not involved in this at all.
The two failed restoration attempts were privately funded. However, the people involved were more concerned about preserving the "historical fabric" of the locomotive than complying with the FRA boiler regs in place today. That led to hand-wringing over the construction of a new firebox because that would "...destroy the historical fabric..." of the locomotive. New steel, you see. We can't do that!
Install a modern air brake system? Oh the horror! We can't do that, either! It will "...destroy the historical..."
You get the picture.
If the Fort Wayne RR Historical Society had taken the same approach with the restoration of the 765, it would still be sitting under the pigeons in Lawton Park in downtown Fort Wayne having never turned a wheel.
Totally agree. I recall an article in The Keystone (quarterly publication of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society) that chronicles the restoration of an Australian steam locomotive. It too had to meet updated steam boiler regulations. They did the right thing, same as the Fort Wayne RR Historical Society - met the regulations but preserved the cosmetic appearance. It's running. K4 #1361 is not. Hand-wringing doesn't get the job done.
George
With the economic sag in middle Pennsylvania that just might be the only hope for 1361 short of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet becoming a Pennsy fan.
On the bright side, the Altoona/central PA region is home to the newest steam tourist operation in the U.S.: the Everett.
Nice scenery, pretty 2-6-0 and a great staff make this line a must-see.
Rob
