A general question

Ed, Thank you for this question.  It gladdens my heart to hear about when people such as you are willing to give a little of their time to help spread happiness to others.  One simple solution to answer your question is for more people to follow your kind example.

I always worked a side job to pay for my trains. I suggest you get a can or a cup and start to put your extra money in it. Build it up. Then when you see something you want you will have the money to make the purchase. You can also apply for you own credit card, but then you have to pay a lot of interest if you don't pay it off in full.

Jim D

Good on you for that!

I guarantee you that he will get just as much (or more) enjoyment out of that 1666 as those who can spend big get out of their stables of $2000 locos.

I have a friend who has a very large collection and has been selling items for half or less at shows for several years to move it along to the next generation.

I recall being much much much younger and my neighbor had a GG1 with the passenger cars. I had a 2046 with few freight cars.

The costs back then were still to high. Today, buying a $2000 engine is still a stretch. Nothings changed but the prices. Oh and the engines are more electronic than mechanical.

A way around the high prices is to enjoy running good, simple, old postwar trains.  Good runners can be found for reasonable prices, as the electronic versions have pushed the postwar stuff out of favor.  Pristine postwar brings crazy money these days, but there are a lot of VG condition runners out there.

Ed,  My first purchase on Lay Away was a Ted Williams bat.  $1.75 with fifty cents down and a quarter a week for five weeks.  At a train show several years ago my then 14 year old son found a 2025(?) he liked.  He bundled it with an R transformer and made an offer contingent upon a Lay Away plan.  The seller at this train show asked my son to bring me to the table.  When I got there, he asked me how long I thought it would take my son to pay the balance.  I said six weeks and with that the seller shook my son's hand and said, "Sold."  Obviously no two sellers are alike.  I have no qualms about accepting a non-refundable deposit for a package of items on Lay Away.  And like many of us, we've discounted items for a good buyer and given away items to youngsters.    John

I too am retired on a small fixed income. At one time in life or another, I've been through all the male hobbies. This 3-rail trains one is the most expensive of them all--by far.  When I determined to build a layout, due to advancing age, 0 scale was the only viable choice. I can't hardly see the grab irons on an HO boxcar, much less glue them in place!

As I looked over the 0 scale landscape, I eventually figured out that I just could not afford Legacy--a $1500 locomotive? Who's kidding who? Luckily there was the TMCC option (used) and lord bless Mike Wolf, the PS-2/3 option. Yes, I also had conventional block operation as a choice. But I just couldn't see spending money on 0 scale and not getting command control.

I bought almost 100% of everything used--even track and turnouts. And most of it on credit, which I am gradually paying down. My two most expensive locos cost $750 each, used. I see lots of items advertised that I just can't afford. A $500 loco would be a BIG decision, and if purchased, would wipe out my train budget for 2 months.

But the layout is up and I am enjoying the hobby A LOT. Yes, I have debt. But it's under control--and dropping. So I think this hobby has worked out about as anyone would expect for someone in my financial position.

Don Merz

You go Don

Glad you are getting a  " LOT  " of enjoyment from the hobby.    Stay tuned to the FORUM for any help you might need.

I learned a few things over the years probably the best two are:

* Don't worry what the next guy has, be proud of what you have. No need to keep up with anyone.

* When going to train shows, forget about what is on the table, take alook under the table. Prices start to drop down there.

I can say over the years that I have met only one seller that was a jerk at a train show. Overall folks are really good and if they can work with you they usually will. Now about the folks in some of the other hobbies I have had over the years... that's another story.

Model trains and many items are discretionary expenditures.  To afford model trains as a hobby, for those with limited resources or income, requires forgetting the words, New and Want.  As others have pointed out, the hobby can be enjoyed buy choosing and wanting less pricey trains.

Ironically many people think all post war trains are scarce and valuable.  That does not have to be true.  I enjoy getting a good used train at a fair price and even making homemade cars and accessories like $10 working turntable.   Most post war trains will keep more of their cost than used trains purchase new, after 10 or 20 years.

Charlie

frugal but not cheap

Well Im still working but paying 2-3g's for a loco is still tough. I mostly buy used from auctions and da bay if the price is right or fair. My preorders have to be really good items that will be tough to find on the secondary market. GGD and 3rd rail items seem to fit that mantra.

In recent-past years, I bought a wonderful $2,500 Sunset 3rd rail passenger set with a Rock Island TA diesel on point. It's now on display in my train room because I wanted it (I'm a RI collector). I could afford it; not paid from monthly retirement income (which is limited -- like others posting on this thread), but with cash from a "target of opportunity" account created years ago for that purpose.  I also bought a Lionel Dinosaur Train set for my great-grandson. It's now on the layout, ready for a call to service at his command.

I consider both trains as treasures albeit in very different COST categories. In my view, most hobbyists consider the VALUE of their trains on a subjective scale; i.e., not necessarily based solely on the money. What is the value of the Dino Train? A "gee whiz" expression on the face of a seven-year-old. Priceless!  What was the reaction of that seven-year-old to my pricey TA diesel set?  "It's nice, but there are no dinosaurs inside!"

It is better to be content with what you have and expand according to what you can afford rather than invite depression about what you want but can't afford, which leads to a self-inflicted psycho-emotional injury. COST versus VALUE is still an important lesson presented at the Harvard Business School.  Postwar (and older) trains have inherent value and charm, and also the current generation of train-based electronica.

Just saying ...

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12394

Some comments about price imply that sellers set it arbitrarily.     There may be a few who do that with  used stuff, but for any new product, the price is dictated by the cost - and a profit for mfg.    but profits generally run in 5% range.     And profit is not and should not be a dirty word.    If an importer or mfg does not make a profit, they absolutely no reason to spend the money to make the product.     They generally have to borrow the money to run the business anyway, so if they can't get a decent return, ie get paid for the their time and effort at a fair market value, they just have not reason to be in business, and won't be.

For used items, price tends to float to the level of demand.       If something is rare, its price will rise because more people will want to buy it than is available.    On the other hand, if there is a lot of something showing up on the bay or at shows, the price will drop because there is more product than buyers.   However, even for  used sellers at train shows or whatever, there are significant costs.     The Cleveland show coming up costs 45 for a table, and 7 for admission.    If the seller is traveing any distance there are hotels and meals added to the cost.    Perhaps 150 per day.    And then for traveling a distance, there is travel costs.     Add to the 2-3 hours to unload and set up the table, 5-6 hours at the show, and 2-3 hours to tear down and pack  up.    Plus the travel time.     Most of the dealers working shows are not doing it entirely for fun, it is their business.    They need to make enough at the show to cover the cost of the merchandise, plus the cost of the show, plus pay them something for those hours.   

Another thing to remember is that the value of the dollar is a lot different today than it was when we were young.    When I was earning a dollar an hour, a 50 dollar loco which was a decent lionel at the time, was more than a weeks pay.    By the time I retired, a 50 dollar item was less than 2 hours work.    Can you imagine what a Lionel Scale Hudson at $75 represented during the depression years?    I  read an essay a few  years ago that compared model train prices to typical wages from the from 50s and 60s, and the trains were actually cheaper now in terms of hours worked to get them.

Hi Ed, What is the piece that sparked this conversation? Best, WRW

I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably never own a Lionel Acela set; new or old. I'll probably never own the MTH Coors Silver Bullet Set or the increasingly expensive Rudolph train.

On the the other hand, my modest budget does allow me to buy a set or two, and a bunch of Boxcars every year. Over the years I've gotten the Polar Express, Hogwarts, El Capitan, Peanuts, NASCAR, MTA, Subway set, etc.

This year's budget is covering the new NASA set and a few Boxcars and some additional Fastrack switches. And maybe one other set come Christmas.

I'm okay with that.

I sell my current stuff to buy newer stuff.  If I feel hard up, I’ll  look around the house and sell unneeded items.   I’ve sold old McDonald’s toys, tools, and other crap that I know will get pitched when I’m gone.   You can sell larger items on Facebook.   While I’m doing that, I’ll start piles to donate.  Every once in a while, my wife will even donate items to sell.  It’s a win win.  I’m fortunate enough to be able to buy what I want.  Its not a matter of economics.  I just want to size down.     We all have too much stuff.  Turn unused stuff into stuff you’ll use.  

I also only have 4 engines and maybe 30 cars.  If it doesn’t fit on my layout, I don’t keep it

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

* Don't worry what the next guy has, be proud of what you have. No need to keep up with anyone.

I dropped $195 (a crazy amount for me) on a used, conventionally-powered GP9 for my enjoyment and to support a local train store. It looks brand new, runs great, pulls everything I hook to it, and brings me a lot of joy.  It looks nowhere near as nice as my uncle’s brand spanking new GP9, but I bought it and I love it!

The irony, of course, is that I also love the 1947 Lionel 2025 that I inherited and run it 10 times as much as the GP9. Thanks to my local shop, it runs like brand new but looks like crap due to 74 years of kids playing with it. This train wouldn’t be overly expensive to replace, but it came from my grandfather and it’s one of the few things I have left.

Point of all this is that I love what I have because it’s mine: mismatched road names, floor-scarred Scout locomotives, even the old milk can car that drops 4 out of 5 milk cans between the car and the platform. My layout will never make the OGR magazine, it will never become a wonderland where one can get lost staring at the scenery for an hour, it will never cause people to become jealous at my ability and bottomless pockets. But every time my 3-year-old nephew squeals in delight as he gets the train rolling again, I realize that the important part is how I feel bringing joy using my equipment, not that it’s new and shiny!

@Ed KW posted:

I have a question for all of us who are older than dirt, on a fixed income by no fault of our own or retired. How do you go about paying for newer trains? I only ask as for the first time in a long time I found something I would really like to have but their layaway terms do not fit for a fixed retired.

... My fear is that with a good portion of us who simply cannot afford the new items will be left out in the cold or just be forced to be content with or old items. ...

... Pricing items is a way of creating another social divide of the haves and have-nots. I just thought or was hoping that our hobby would always stay at an affordable level for anyone to stay in it. Not become like so many other things in life that your hobbies or the thing that bring you enjoyment are now out of reach or you have to start to decide on happiness versus necessities. Isn't happiness a necessity to ones own mental health. ... It's not always about the bottom line.

Ed, you kind of mixed two unrelated points in your observation that started this thread: the price of certain new trains and the desire of those on fixed incomes to find happiness.

The manufacturers are producing trains based on market demands, which still favors starter sets (in terms of the higher volume sales) but also includes a more select group of longtime hobbyists who want more heavily-detailed, true-scale products that are made in much smaller production runs.

Prices of new trains reflect the cost of production, which includes research, design and development, new tooling (particularly for costly molds), manufacturing and distribution. Add to that the need for the final price to allow for profit for the manufacturer, wholesalers and dealers.

So, if a train price is set at $500 or $2,000, there is very little that can be done that hasn’t already been done to lower the cost.

As for happiness ...

Many on a post-retirement fixed income, just like someone starting a young family fresh out of college and entering the workforce, find such prices hard to afford just for “fun.” There is absolutely nothing new in that. But if such people decide they aren’t happy because they can’t afford these toys, the problem lies with each person.

I’m still working, though on a modest income. I can’t afford a $2,000 locomotive. I also can’t afford a $150,000 mortgage, a $40,000 automobile or a $10,000 luxury vacation. If I choose to let my happiness depend on those luxuries, then I’m creating my own problem.

It’s best not to dwell on what you can’t afford. And if you can’t afford even the $170 layaway payments, there is even less likelihood that you’ll find much satisfaction in this hobby if you focus on new trains.

We’re losing manufacturers, hobby shops and devoted hobbyists as the population ages. That’s a natural market reaction to the demographics. Even if younger folks fully fill the void, the same market and social forces as I described will be at work.

@Coca Cola guy posted:

I dropped $195 (a crazy amount for me) on a used, conventionally-powered GP9 for my enjoyment and to support a local train store. It looks brand new, runs great, pulls everything I hook to it, and brings me a lot of joy.  It looks nowhere near as nice as my uncle’s brand spanking new GP9, but I bought it and I love it!

The irony, of course, is that I also love the 1947 Lionel 2025 that I inherited and run it 10 times as much as the GP9. Thanks to my local shop, it runs like brand new but looks like crap due to 74 years of kids playing with it. This train wouldn’t be overly expensive to replace, but it came from my grandfather and it’s one of the few things I have left.

Point of all this is that I love what I have because it’s mine: mismatched road names, floor-scarred Scout locomotives, even the old milk can car that drops 4 out of 5 milk cans between the car and the platform. My layout will never make the OGR magazine, it will never become a wonderland where one can get lost staring at the scenery for an hour, it will never cause people to become jealous at my ability and bottomless pockets. But every time my 3-year-old nephew squeals in delight as he gets the train rolling again, I realize that the important part is how I feel bringing joy using my equipment, not that it’s new and shiny!

Salute!. We run the scrounged stuff as well. and THESE, were found on the forum in excellent condition, reasonably priced, Best packaging and shipping, Happy to pay the asking from forum friends. Thank you thank you (I even got an autograph!) salute

There is $1400.00 coming in the mail....Go for it!!!