AC regulator board

I can't imagine why you can't install this yourself, probably the hardest part is getting the shell off and on and avoiding pinching wires and the like.

 

What's the exact model of this locomotive?

John it is 6-11202 lionel legacy cp ten wheeler. I looked up exspoded diagram on lionel parts site and it looks like a part maybe i could install. What does this part do and why does it affect the turning off of the smoke unit from the cab 2 and not the cab 1? Would you know john?

I  have it's sister the C&O 10 wheeler. It's been back to lionel and they know these little guys have smoke issues. I can set the smoke to high and nothing happens but if I ring the bell it smokes like a ur uh freight train LOL .

I 've seen several on here post about the 10 wheelers that came out just prior to this release and they had AC regulator board issues . But M.R. told me that wasn't the case with this little guy. You can do as you'd like but if it was me I'd just turn the switch off and save a couple bucks.

David

Of course, this only works if you don't want the smoke to be command controlled.

Thanks john, would using the smoke unit untill i can get the part or have lionel fix this be further damaging to the engine electronics? Were these just bad parts or is there another cause as to the reg. failure? Would it be best to have mike and his team check it out and test run it to be sure it is working right or would me replacing it be good enough? What would you guys do? I like to have smoke feature if equiped. Why buy a car with a.c. And if it breaks never fix it just say oh well and roll down the windows and run 260!

I can't imagine it damaging anything else, though anything's possible.

 

Just curious, how did you identify that the regulator was the bad part? 

 

It's possible that something else caused the failure, though if everything else functions correctly, that it probably not likely.  This is something of a guessing game unless we actually had our hands on the item in question.

Lionel tech told me thats what it sounded like to him was a bad ac regulator in the engine.

Also lionel tech advised me to turn it off untill I could return it for repair. I know i should not question them but just wanted a second opinion from you. Thanks for always chiming in to answer my post's.I respect your electronics exspertice in these matters! And also if I could do it my self I could save $60 labor as this engine being used is out of warranty.

Thanks chuck! In the mean time would it hurt to use the smoke unit or should it be shut off at switch on engine? Would like to play with it until i can send it back?

I don't think it will damage anything further. The regulator board is shot and will have to be replaced.

Thanks chuck! Will send back to lionel to replace as they can check the smoke unit also for new resistor and wicking. I trust mikes team more than me. Every time i try some thing i get impatiant and break something else. Btw, john now i see why cab 1 works and legacy cab does not . Cab 2 has low med high as where cab one is just on off. Hence the need for the ac regulator in legacy components. Thanks to you and chuck I realy learn a lot here!! Not the usual o well its broke and thats that! I love to get to the hart of why and how things work in our hobby so I can do what you all do. That is fix most problems yourself!

That's probably the safe avenue.

These regulators are on more than just Legacy engines.  TMCC engines use it.  It is like a MUX board to add additional controls from the serial data.  In this case, controlling the smoke unit and syncronized smoke with huff.

 

Why it works with a CAB-1 and not a CAB-2 is interesting.  I would have thought the serial data too it would be the same.  G

Certainly the data that makes it to the smoke unit should be consistent, that makes no sense.

 

There's apparently a new rule, it doesn't have to make sense, it's Lionel.

Maybe i will ask tech when i get ready to send back to them. ( got to wait on $$) I will let you all know what they day if they say anything.

I shudder to think what it will cost.

Somewhere around $120. $60 labor $30 ac reg part Maybe$20 shipping You would think if these ac reg units were a bad batch put in unknowingly by lionel they would waive the labor. I know one they would never issue such a recall to the original owners. 2 since i purchased used no way in **** would they buy that argument! At least compared to list price I still saved $200! Not bad other than that I figure. Seller never use smoke feature and just turned it off. I don't blame him. sounds like lionel new there was a bad batch of ac regs installed in this batch of locos but out of warranty stuff is SOL I would assume.this engine is from 2009 cat. So is getting hard to find anyway. Other than issue stated I love this little engine glad I found one!

Do what John said and do the job yourself.  It is very easy to do.  Just get the right part. 

Here is what one looks like with the shrink wrap removed.  This was from a TMCC GP with Odyssey.   5 wires.  Cut the shrink wrap off the old one and mark where each wire goes.   The brown one on this unit is serial data in.

 

I am still confused why TMCC CAB-1 works but not CAB-2 since it is a common serial line in.  I would want to be sure it is the regulator first.   G

GGG, I wonder if he did an aux reprogram on the engine. Works with  Cab 1 but not Cab 2??   Your thought was mine also if the serial works.  I would want to meter each wire for continuity from the reg to where it goes.   If it is bad, he should do just what John stated, wire for wire.  In Legacy, the serial wire is usually brown also. 

Marty,  Does Lionel go into detail how the ACREG works?  Seems like it can have different functions depending on the unit it is in.  G 

Can you turn on the smoke unit with the cab2, can you adjust the smoke output?

Bill, no you cant! Buttons on cab2 seem to have no effect! Just seems to be on high output all the time. Yes I did a rest with cab one and cab2 I got the proper whistle blast also! Tried johns suggestion of new tmcc address that did not work! If this is definetly the ac reg board I think I can do it. I just would like to be 100% sure that is the problem!

BTW thanks GGG for the pics of the part.

On his Legacy locomotive reading L-R from the bottom left side of the regulator is a brown wire that is the serial/data wire that connects to pin 24 on the R4LC board.  This data tells the smoke reg to turn the smoke on/off.  Next to that is the wire that goes to AC ground Cchassis).  Next to that is the AC hot from the pickup rollers.  This wire (center wire) is interrupted by the smoke on/off switch.  Check continuity on both sides of that switch.  next to that is the smoke unit ground.  Next to that is the smoke unit hot.  This  wire gives the smoke unit 9-12 volts at the element. 

 

On top of the smoke unit PCB is a small reg that allows app 5VDC to run the fan motor. 

 

These regs come with a few inches of wire.  Like John stated, wire for wire and it will work for you.  Never put all your money in Lionel color coding.  Start with the data/serial wire with continuity checked to pin 24 and you are up and headed down the correct path.

 

I do not know the conversation that took place at Lionel but if the guys there determined it to be the reg, go with it.  I like to check continuity on all 5 wires and go from that point.

The small print on the board at the wires actually identify each too.  But you can't see that when it is under the shrink wrap.

 

 

 I am still confused why it would work with a CAB-1 but not a CAB-2.  Does the R4LC process CAB-1 signals differently and send a different code to the ACREG?  I would have thought the ACREG would be looking for the same signal to turn off.  If the ACREQ is bad, that would mean it can decifer a CAB-1 signal from the R4LC, but not a CAB-2 signal.  Seems like a lot of extra code.  G

Marty, if I do it one wire at a time can I just match the wires up by the colors? Or are they not the same colors from batch to batch? Is there enough lenth to splice and heat shrink each one? Thanks!

There will be enough length on the ACREG, I imagine you will have to trim some wire off.  I would follow Marty's directions and match color, if you think there is an issue post here.  G

If the board layout is the same, I'd also make sure the same colored wires are coming from the same connection on the board.   In other words, just use common sense, sometimes the color codes do not match exactly.

There should be plenty of wire length, some trimming will be necessary.

As I recall I wound up running one or two of them back to their connection points at the smoke switch and the smoke unit. I figured this was simpler and maybe more reliable than wire splicing.
In any case it was not difficult.

 

Rod

It's possible the wrong AC regulator was installed from the factory.

 

Bill

Good pickup Bill.  I am still at a stall with it shutting off with Cab 1. 

Interesting idea, I suppose that can happen, given some of the other things I've seen.   That would be a bummer!

 

The command set is different for Legacy; the result is the board must respond to two different serial commands - one for Cab-1, one for CAB-2 (in legacy mode).  To change the smoke level in TMCC (cab-1) you had to enter AUX1, AUX2, 9, L(M or H), AUX2.  The commands could be missed and hard to remember, so a new command was devised under Legacy to insure the decode. The command is a multi-byte sequence that has a checksum.   Anyways, it is just code, and not a lot of design energy!  It is a mystery to me why the board does not work since the serial line must be functional!

Like I said I HAVE ONE OF THESE ENGINES AND THE CAB 2 WILL NOT CONTROL THE SMOKE . No way, no how, not today or tomorrow. I've already had it back to lionel and they can't figure it out. There are icons on the touch screen for smoke ,they don't work. In conventional it will automatically set itself to medium but in command the only way to get it to high is to ring the bell. As soon as you turn off the bell ...back to medium. I haven't ever tried to load the engine manually it may help but using the memory modual  it won't respond to touch commands for smoke. All the other touch commands work fine.

You can replace the regulator board,it'll be good practice but don't be disappointed when you find out you have the same thing that you have now.

David

David, i am exsperiancing the same thing! Bell on cab 2 seems to turn on the bell. With cab 1 I can turn off and on the smoke and as john stated due the aux1aux 2. Nine then L then aux2 . As per the manual under regular tmcc control to bring it to high. I just replaced the wick and the smoke is very good white plumes! i seem to have to try the command sets a few times to get it to work properly though. John ( aka santa fe fan ) I am asking you this directly and would like an honest answer. 1 would using loco as is hurt anything further? 2 if i sent it back to mike could they get it working as it is suppose too? Mike told me via email that when I get ready I could send it in and get an RA. I hate to send it back and have acreg board replaced if it is not going to solve the problem. I love legacy and will be buying nothing but legacy locos. This is the best small steamer I own yet! Seller agreed to buy it back. But I said know! Just love to run the smoke feature on all my engines and would love to have this one working right! Thanks for your valuable time and input on this problem! This is why lionel get 100% of my money. Most manufactures could care less ,let alone respond on a open forum like this! I know things happen( bad parts ,factory errors,careless workers ect.)so I don't blame anyone! I just want it to function properly! Thanks also to david for posting also.

John, also if you care and have the time. I would let mike send it to you as a guinepig if you will to examen. If other units are having the same issuses maybe a first hand look by both you or mike could prevent subsiquent runs if marketing plans to do any of this loco, to not have this same issue. That is if there was an issue with this loco across the board. Just know of david and I having it because if this post! Thanks!just tossing this Idea out there!

Weird smoke aside,
It is the best engine I have .Pulls like a tractor has awesome sounds. I can put up with the smoke and would buy another in a heart beat.

David

Me too! Just want to help anyway I can in solving the problem!