My grandson's LC tender has a fake back up light. I was wondering if I can add it behind the fake lens and get the power from the pickup shown in the photo.
Corrected original title. It is a LionChief and NOT an LC+
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@Craftech posted:My grandson's LC+ tender has a fake back up light. I was wondering if I can add it behind the fake lens and get the power from the pickup shown in the photo.
That's not a pickup shoe but an added "common" collector. You would need to add a roller or go inside the tender and find a hot from the engine.
Would you expect the light to stay on constantly?
@RickM46 posted:Would you expect the light to stay on constantly?
I would think that for it to only come on in reverse a tether would have to be run from the engine to the tender so on all the time would probably work better.
John
If all the time, instead of being white, you could replace the lens with a red one.
@RickM46 posted:If all the time, instead of being white, you could replace the lens with a red one.
I have an Evans designs Red LED actually.
I am not sure about tapping into that pickup though. I guess it drives the speaker amp?
John
First off, there is nothing in the tender with power, so you'll have to run a tether from the locomotive. Next, you have to find the output pin for the reverse light on the LC+ board. If you just want it on all the time, a resistor and a diode in series with the backup light LED will do the trick.
Here's one LC+ light wiring diagram that was recently posted here.
https://ogrforum.com/...87#83931444132198187
@gunrunnerjohn posted:First off, there is nothing in the tender with power, so you'll have to run a tether from the locomotive. Next, you have to find the output pin for the reverse light on the LC+ board. If you just want it on all the time, a resistor and a diode in series with the backup light LED will do the trick.
Here's one LC+ light wiring diagram that was recently posted here.
https://ogrforum.com/...87#83931444132198187
Thanks John, but what is that pickup for on the bottom of the tender that my red arrow is pointing to? A ground? It goes to the existing 4-prong tether.
John
As already stated in a previous reply, that's just another outside track common connection. In order to get power in the tender, you'd have to have pickup rollers.
That probably does make a difference, the LC board doesn't have a reverse light output from what I've seen.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:That probably does make a difference, the LC board doesn't have a reverse light output from what I've seen.
OK. I guess he has a LionChief. I think it is probably not worth trying to add a pickup roller. So I'll tell him I can't add a light.
Thanks for all the help.
John
So the real hindrance is adding another Tether wire?
Would it be possible to tap DC voltage off the motor when in reverse and then pass that through one of the existing speaker wires that runs through the existing 4 conductor tether? A series bi-polar capacitor could prevent the DC from going back to the audio amplifier and on the other end another series bi-polar could be used before the speaker. The tap to drive the Back-up LED in the Tender would be in between these capacitors and then connect to the resistor and diode GRJ mentioned earlier before connecting to the LED.
This plan assumes that the DC motor shares the common ground that the Tender picks up from the outside rail. If the DC motor power is completely isolated from common, then the above circuit with the two bi-polars would need to be repeated for the 2nd motor tap and pass through the 2nd speaker wire running through the tether?
@gunrunnerjohn Could this work?
The motor does NOT share any ground, you can't ground either side of it. They're typically driven by something like an H-Bridge circuit for bi-directional operation.
Also, the noise from the motor driver waveform would bury any sound, it's not plain DC there, it's PWM. Even if it were pure DC, the brush noise hash would show up in the audio.
Now, if you actually wanted to run two tiny wires back, you could use a resistor and just use the motor voltage to drive the LED. It would only light in one direction, and you wire it for the reverse polarity.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The motor does NOT share any ground, you can't ground either side of it. They're typically driven by something like an H-Bridge circuit for bi-directional operation.
Also, the noise from the motor driver waveform would bury any sound, it's not plain DC there, it's PWM. Even if it were pure DC, the brush noise hash would show up in the audio.
Now, if you actually wanted to run two tiny wires back, you could use a resistor and just use the motor voltage to drive the LED. It would only light in one direction, and you wire it for the reverse polarity.
The kid is five, but he is able to carefully hook and unhook the existing tether without wrecking anything. He doesn't let the tender hang by the wire either. But a bullet connector in addition to that will probably be a disaster waiting to happen.
I seems to be a better bet to figure out some way to pick up track voltage under the tender and send it up to an LED inside of it where it would be on all the time. My GP38 Williams rear light is on all the time as is the front.
John
@gunrunnerjohn Thank you for the notes on the H-bridge circuit producing a Pulse Width Modulated signal to drive the DC motor. I didn't realize that's how it's done, but it makes perfect sense for bi-directional speed control. I also hadn't considered the noise generated by the motor, duh.
The way some condenser microphones are supplied 48VDC phantom power from a preamp through the same 2 wires that the audio signal passes, was the principle behind my idea. But that 48VDC has to be very clean and stable to prevent adding noise to the audio signal.
It's my understanding that John (Craftech) is thinking that additional wires between the Locomotive and tender may be problematic for his young grandson. I too have some similar tenders with the "fake tender back up light" that I've also contemplated the same thing as John. It would be great if there was a way to do this, simply and inexpensively as you suggest.
I did come across this older Topic about tethers: OGRForum Good source for tethers? posted by Gary @superwarp1
In that topic, there was was a reply from Memorialized Member Boxcar Bill saying that he had some of these:
Does anyone know what these are called and/or where they can be purchased?
@SteveH posted:@gunrunnerjohn Thank you for the notes on the H-bridge circuit producing a Pulse Width Modulated signal to drive the DC motor. I didn't realize that's how it's done, but it makes perfect sense for bi-directional speed control. I also hadn't considered the noise generated by the motor, duh.
The way some condenser microphones are supplied 48VDC phantom power from a preamp through the same 2 wires that the audio signal passes, was the principle behind my idea. But that 48VDC has to be very clean and stable to prevent adding noise to the audio signal.
It's my understanding that John (Craftech) is thinking that additional wires between the Locomotive and tender may be problematic for his young grandson. I too have some similar tenders with the "fake tender back up light" that I've also contemplated the same thing as John. It would be great if there was a way to do this, simply and inexpensively as you suggest.
I did come across this older Topic about tethers: OGRForum Good source for tethers? posted by Gary @superwarp1
In that topic, there was was a reply from Memorialized Member Boxcar Bill saying that he had some of these:
Does anyone know what these are called and/or where they can be purchased?
Maybe these?
https://www.amazon.com/Upgrade...B07NWD5NTN&psc=1
John
@Craftech Those might be a good choice. I like that they have the soft silicone insulation for good flexibility. I would think that 22 gauge should be strong enough not to break easily and has more than enough current capacity to drive an LED. The only questions about these I don't know the answer to is how well the connector holds together and how easy it is to disconnect? I suspect GRJ can provide some insight on that.
Do you think they would for for Connor?
@SteveH posted:The only questions about these I don't know the answer to is how well the connector holds together and how easy it is to disconnect?
Do you think they would for for Connor?
I don't think so. They are relatively large, but still he would have to "hook on" the main connector and then press those together without unhooking the main connector.
Light on all the time or no light seem like the best option for him.
Thanks for remembering his name Steve. That's awesome.
John
Dear OGR overlords, please forgive me. I've been eyeing these for tethers. Check out this link.
10 Pairs of Micro Male Female Plug Connector With Wire JST PH 2.0 2/3/4/5/6/ PIN
Might as well go for really small if you're doing those, look for some of the JST-ZH or even the JST-SH sets.
So going back to this possibly hair brained idea in hope of a better solution for @Craftech John's grandson's desire to have the tender back-up light work prototypically without an additional tether:
@SteveH posted:[EDITED to account for new information]
Would it be possible to tap DC voltage off the motor when in reverse and then pass that through the existing speaker wires that run through the existing 4 conductor tether using a series bi-polar capacitor to prevent the DC from going back to the audio amplifier and on the other end another series bi-polar could be used before the speaker. The tap to drive the Back-up LED in the Tender would be in between these capacitors and then connect to the resistor and diode GRJ mentioned earlier before connecting to the LED.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The motor .. (is) typically driven by something like an H-Bridge circuit for bi-directional operation.
Also, the noise from the motor driver waveform would bury any sound, it's not plain DC there, it's PWM. Even if it were pure DC, the brush noise hash would show up in the audio.
Now, if you actually wanted... just use the motor voltage to drive the LED. It would only light in one direction, and you wire it for the reverse polarity.
How about this idea for a refinement to account for the motor noise? Would 2 chokes just large enough to filter the motor noise sufficiently (not completely, just enough to be masked by the audio signal), 1 each in series with the taps from the motor, before they're tied into the modified speaker circuit with the DC blocking caps mentioned above, be able to be crammed into a typical 0-8-0 LC locomotive or similar shell? If not, is there any way some other simple filter circuit could accomplish this in the available space inside the loco without degrading the PWM motor driver signal?
Could you go with a battery in the tender and mount an on-off switch in the floor? Needs no tether.
@Scotie posted:Could you go with a battery in the tender and mount an on-off switch in the floor? Needs no tether.
A definite option Scotie. Not sure how often it would have to be changed. I would think not very often.
Thanks for the idea.
John
@SteveH posted:So going back to this possibly hair brained idea in hope of a better solution for @Craftech John's grandson's desire to have the tender back-up light work prototypically without an additional tether:
How about this idea for a refinement to account for the motor noise? Would 2 chokes just large enough to filter the motor noise sufficiently (not completely, just enough to be masked by the audio signal), 1 each in series with the taps from the motor, before they're tied into the modified speaker circuit with the DC blocking caps mentioned above, be able to be crammed into a typical 0-8-0 LC locomotive or similar shell? If not, is there any way some other simple filter circuit could accomplish this in the available space inside the loco without degrading the PWM motor driver signal?
Steve, you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I'd forget about trying to tie this to the motor!. If you're really hard-over on a reverse light, you could do it with a wireless link.
@Scotie posted:Could you go with a battery in the tender and mount an on-off switch in the floor? Needs no tether.
Even cooler would be a pushbutton that started a timer for an LED light, say with a runtime of an hour. That way you could turn the light on, and it would automatically go off in an hour. The timer can be a low current device that would give you years of battery life, consider the TLC555CP timer. A couple of lithium AA batteries would give you years of operation.
OK, folks, now let's get back to the world of practical reality. Understand the given parameters are: a light may be on all the time and not just while operating in reverse; also this is for Connor, a youngster with smaller hands and a less than fully developed sense of coordination. So why not go with a simple center rail roller pick up from Lionel that attaches to the tender truck. Styles that attach to the axles or the side frames are both available from parts suppliers (The Train Tender or S&W) for about $10 or less. Problem solved, or, am I missing something here? 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Steve, you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I'd forget about trying to tie this to the motor!. If you're really hard-over on a reverse light, you could do it with a wireless link.
John, Ok the filter/motor power option is forgotten.
I've searched and found several possible options for wireless tethers, but none jump out at me as being adapted to this exact application. Is there one in particular you have in mind that would be fairly easy to integrate and relatively inexpensive?
My goal is to discover if this modification is possible, simply and inexpensively and if so, how. Any help would be appreciated.
In the 50's, General Models Corporation (GMC) made lights directional. Using (I think) six volt bulbs, they connected the bulb from one motor brush to ground and the other bulb from the other motor brush to ground.
Try it and see what you think. You can use the connector that RSJB18 suggested.
Now that I see it's a Lion Chief + engine, you can make the light work with an LED, a diode, and a resistor.
In my initial response, I was thinking of a pullmore motor.
I corrected the title. It is actually a LionChief and not a LionChief plus as someone pointed out. I called my daughter to check the box and it is indeed a LionChief.
John
Be sure to check Amazon, they have some tiny ones that are polarized, about 2.54mm which translates to us traditional Americans as 3/32 of an inch.
Craftech
I have the same set (LC Pennsylvania Flyer) and thought it would be cool if that light worked. This thread got me thinking about it again. I just ordered the parts and expect them this Saturday. I'm going to use a snap in pickup roller to get power from the track , and found an led light harness which I plan to operate from a small remote. LED remotes are small and I will attach to the back of the LC remote with velcro. The reason I want to use the remote is because I want to be able to turn it on and off not only while backing up but only when there are no other cars coupled to the tender. If you think about it, if it were coupled all you would light up would be the front of the car coupled to the tender. I'm hoping to use it with the room lights off and have it appear as if it were in a night time setting and be able to turn them off when coupling is complete. Hopefully this will work as I intend it to. The light harness and the remote cost me $26 with shipping and the roller pickup should be around $5 or so from a hobby shop.
@Dan Kenny posted:..The light harness and the remote cost me $26 with shipping and the roller pickup should be around $5 or so from a hobby shop.
Dan, that sounds like a great solution! Would you please post details about the light harness and remote you ordered?
That's fantastic Dan. Ditto on the parts list. Grandson will be thrilled.
Thanks,
John
Here is what I purchased. They seem to have a lot to offer. What is good for me is they are all prewired. Just select your power source . When you are buying multiple items they check for compatibility to eliminate issues. Like I said hopefully it works as I envisioned. I'll try to upload a video after I complete the project.
@Dan Kenny posted:
Here is what I purchased. They seem to have a lot to offer. What is good for me is they are all prewired. Just select your power source . When you are buying multiple items they check for compatibility to eliminate issues. Like I said hopefully it works as I envisioned. I'll try to upload a video after I complete the project.
I have been purchasing from them over the past year and the products are convenient and work well. I am ordering now.
Did you get the 12-19v version of the remote set?
Do you know the part number for the roller pickup Dan?
Thanks,
John
Yes I ordered the 12 to 19 volt version. I don’t know the part number of the pick up roller. I bought one from a semi local hobby shop to add lights to the caboose on the same set a few years ago. I plan to go to the same place for this one. I did see some on eBay while looking for parts for this project but without knowing part # I didn’t want to go that route. Hobby shop seems easier.
@Dan Kenny posted:Yes I ordered the 12 to 19 volt version. I don’t know the part number of the pick up roller. I bought one from a semi local hobby shop to add lights to the caboose on the same set a few years ago. I plan to go to the same place for this one. I did see some on eBay while looking for parts for this project but without knowing part # I didn’t want to go that route. Hobby shop seems easier.
Thanks,
I'll contact Jeff at The Train Tender about the roller. This is great.
John
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