Here are the videos from Dave Olson, Lionel's CTO.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Those videos just really drove home the limitations and possible issues of trying to map Lionchief and BT engines to the limited number of TMCC ID space allowed. It just seems to be a huge complication in the larger club setting, especially with needing access to the switches on the face of it, the fact when adding or deleting a mapped ID you need everyone else to stop running any Lionchief or BT. Again, you basically want to leave clear for specific usage 2-29 ID space. Not the worst thing in the world, but one more rule to remember. But again, the real kicker was how to clear one of those used IDs to reprogram for another engine- nothing else can be transmitting BT or RF lionchief at the moment. Fine at home, at a club just one more rule.
I get it, for some of you this may be your dream of a "one remote utopia". I see other situations where this just adds a layer of complication and makes me glad for the orange universal remote.
Must be a sign of impending delivery if Lionel is posting instruction videos! 
@hokie71 posted:Must be a sign of impending delivery if Lionel is posting instruction videos!
Dave said spring to early summer on the Legacy Users Meeting. This is just one sign.
@MartyE posted:Here are the videos from Dave Olson, Lionel's CTO.
Thanks for posting the videos. I appreciate your effort.
Here are some observations that I hope you'll share with Dave Olson.
1) Good that the videos are brief and to the point.
2) The background music was too loud and distracting, especially considering that part of the process involves hearing chirps and engine sounds. Annoying and very difficult for those who have trouble distinguishing sounds - and that's a large portion of the target market. For a 2-minute video, background silence would work just fine.
3) The similar but different procedures for programming can be confusing - distinguishing LionChief+ from LionChief+ 2.0, choosing the correct run/prog switch, using IDs 2-9 or 2-29, etc. Would be nice if Lionel could include a cheat sheet / small chart that can be copied, laminated, and kept near the base for easy reference.
@Mallard4468 posted:Here are some observations that I hope you'll share with Dave Olson.
1) Good that the videos are brief and to the point.
2) The background music was too loud and distracting, especially considering that part of the process involves hearing chirps and engine sounds. Annoying and very difficult for those who have trouble distinguishing sounds - and that's a large portion of the target market. For a 2-minute video, background silence would work just fine.
3) The similar but different procedures for programming can be confusing - distinguishing LionChief+ from LionChief+ 2.0, choosing the correct run/prog switch, using IDs 2-9 or 2-29, etc. Would be nice if Lionel could include a cheat sheet / small chart that can be copied, laminated, and kept near the base for easy reference.
I'm sure Dave will see the suggestions here or you can post to their YouTube channel.
There are lists floating around that have all the RF engines on. I think if in doubt, if it doesn't have a Bluetooth logo on the engine it's probably RF.
Those were nice simple instructions. Should be easy to program.
A little disappointed that I would be restricted to those ID's, for the Lionchief especially, as I have Legacy engines using those ID's. I could always reassign my Legacy engines to a higher number, but I always like to use the first 2 or last 2 digits of the road number so I don't have to try and remember them.
I also wasn't expecting to have to clear the Base3 if I just wanted to pick up the Lionchief remote or Universal Remote. That is kind of a cumbersome process if kids just want to run a train and pick up a Lionchief remote. I wonder if you just turn off the Base3 so there is no signal, you could then just use the Lionchief remote. I would think that would work so we wouldn't have to clear the base. Of course, then you can't run other types of engines at the same time.
I like that Lionel is putting out all this information ahead of the release of the Base3. I hope they do it for their other products in the future. It's really nice having these videos out there.
I think when you are trying to please everyone some trade offs will need to be made. It maybe seen as cheerleading but Lionel has done what everyone has been asking for by making all of their engines run under 1 platform and still make sure the path to backwards compatibility is still there. They'll never make everyone happy but I feel that they have done a pretty good job trying to accommodate the hobby best as they can with Base3. I just don't know what else they could do.
Incidentally you can select locomotives by road number now using the Legacy remote. ENG-Select-punch in the road number.
@MartyE posted:I think when you are trying to please everyone some trade offs will need to be made. It maybe seen as cheerleading but Lionel has done what everyone has been asking for by making all of their engines run under 1 platform and still make sure the path to backwards compatibility is still there. They'll never make everyone happy but I feel that they have done a pretty good job trying to accommodate the hobby best as they can with Base3. I just don't know what else they could do.
Incidentally you can select locomotives by road number now using the Legacy remote. ENG-Select-punch in the road number.
Thank you Marty for all your effort with the Base 3. Having just Legacy and LC+2.0 locomotives, this should work out fine for me.
Gene
@MartyE posted:Lionel has done what everyone has been asking for by making all of their engines run under 1 platform and still make sure the path to backwards compatibility is still there.
Lionel already did that in the early 2000s with tmcc and a few years later Legacy in both scale and semi scale engines🤔
Folks then asked for a "simpler" control system and Lionchief was created. Now here we are and folks want to run all of their trains from the Legacy remote again.😐
But now....its a bit more involved( and expensive) than just picking up your cab, or 2 and punching in an id#.
Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
@RickO posted:Lionel already did that in the early 2000s with tmcc and a few years later Legacy in both scale and semi scale engines🤔
Folks then asked for a "simpler" control system and Lionchief was created. Now here we are and folks want to run all of their trains from the Legacy remote again.😐
But now....its a bit more involved( and expensive) than just picking up your cab, or 2 and punching in an id#.
Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
If you remember I was one of the ones that was kinda dumb struck that folks wanted simpler and then wanted to add back in what they considered the complications. Oh well. I personally am looking forward to the Base3 and all it has to offer.
Although it's great that the BASE3 supports virtually all the engines that Lionel makes, having to access the base to program them is, as others have said, cumbersome. It would be really cumbersome for me unless I relocate my base, mine is in the middle of the layout on a control panel currently.
I can only hope there's some way, perhaps in the future, to access those switch functions from the remote to eliminate the issue of having to physically switch them on the base.
Failing a way to access them from the remote, I'd be tempted to add a remote control relay module to have distant control of the switches.
This probably won't be a big deal for me as I don't intend to acquire and/or run original Lionchief or Lionchief Plus locomotives, certainly not in any quantity. I run any Lionchief Plus 2.0 locomotives as TMCC locomotives, so no physical access to the base is required.
@MartyE posted:If you remember I was one of the ones that was kinda dumb struck that folks wanted simpler and then wanted to add back in what they considered the complications. Oh well. I personally am looking forward to the Base3 and all it has to offer.
Well, I was one of the first to suggest that Lionel follow the MTH roadmap and simply offer at least a basic TMCC command functionality in all the engines, and I wish they had done that from the start. That way we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I agree that Lionel probably should've at least made all LionChief locomotives with a basic TMCC address receiver that they started doing by the time the Plus 2.0 system came along. I think LionChief was a good idea, but its execution should've been a little more thought out overall.
But I do very much appreciate that Lionel focused on making its new Base 3 as backwards compatible as possible in trying to ensure no locomotive gets shafted.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Although it's great that the BASE3 supports virtually all the engines that Lionel makes, having to access the base to program them is, as others have said, cumbersome. It would be really cumbersome for me unless I relocate my base, mine is in the middle of the layout on a control panel currently.
I can only hope there's some way, perhaps in the future, to access those switch functions from the remote to eliminate the issue of having to physically switch them on the base.
If you read the control website thread and go to the site, the new version of LSU allows remote programming of the LC engines both RF and BT. So your wish is their command. Literally. I think Dave mentioned this on the Live LUG meeting as well.
To put a positive back on this, Dave did do a great and thorough job explaining the processes for both engine types. The videos are helpful and nicely produced with on screen details and info. Definitely a nice video production and nice addition to the new control website.
Again, nice job Dave!
@MartyE posted:If you read the control website thread and go to the site, the new version of LSU allows remote programming of the LC engines both RF and BT. So your wish is their command. Literally. I think Dave mentioned this on the Live LUG meeting as well.
I hadn't seen that, but it certainly solves that problem. 
Where is this new site with the BASE3 info?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I hadn't seen that, but it certainly solves that problem.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:I wonder if you just turn off the Base3 so there is no signal, you could then just use the Lionchief remote.
Once you pair a Bluetooth engine with its own remote or with the universal remote, the BASE3 can't take control of it, you can then turn the BASE3 on and run everything else the way you want. Try it home now, connect your phone to a Bluetooth engine, and then try to connect the universal remote, whichever device connects first wins and the other can try but won't succeed until the first device disconnects. The BASE3 won't have any special power to override another device that connects first.
@MartyE posted:
It was in the heading, I didn't think to look there! I read the whole thread, just didn't register that the site was in the heading. 
I think they need more work on their site. On multiple links I get this...
Attachments
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think they need more work on their site. On multiple links I get this...
I just don't know what to say. There is so much information on Base3 and the App and this is what gets focused on?
@MartyE posted:I just don't know what to say. There is so much information on Base3 and the App and this is what gets focused on?
Nothing is so easy as complaining about the job someone else is doing!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I think they need more work on their site. On multiple links I get this...
There shouldn't be any dead links like that. Where on the control website did you click to get that? If easier to email me the info, I would appreciate it.
GREAT! So now I know how to program a BASE 3 with certain engines.
Hope I don't forget this before my BASE 3 (I ordered 2) arrives!
@Dave Olson posted:There shouldn't be any dead links like that. Where on the control website did you click to get that? If easier to email me the info, I would appreciate it.
Dave, it's on the Lionel store and not the Control pages, sorry for the mix up.
You're right, if I stick to https://control.lionel.com/ I didn't find any dead links. AAMOF, I'm impressed that there are direct links to all the manuals, and they all work as well!
So...helping Dave with a bit of quality control on the new site...
The posted CSM2 manual is not the latest version. The latest is dated 3/21
The posted SER2 manual is not the latest version. The latest is dated 6/21
@Sean's Train Depot posted:I also wasn't expecting to have to clear the Base3 if I just wanted to pick up the Lionchief remote or Universal Remote. That is kind of a cumbersome process if kids just want to run a train and pick up a Lionchief remote. I wonder if you just turn off the Base3 so there is no signal, you could then just use the Lionchief remote. I would think that would work so we wouldn't have to clear the base. Of course, then you can't run other types of engines at the same time.
Maybe a future firmware update could allow the disabling of bluetooth from the Base3 without having to remove and then add back each of the engines you might to temporarily control through the dedicated remote.
@Vernon Barry posted:Those videos just really drove home the limitations and possible issues of trying to map Lionchief and BT engines to the limited number of TMCC ID space allowed. It just seems to be a huge complication in the larger club setting, especially with needing access to the switches on the face of it, the fact when adding or deleting a mapped ID you need everyone else to stop running any Lionchief or BT. Again, you basically want to leave clear for specific usage 2-29 ID space. Not the worst thing in the world, but one more rule to remember. But again, the real kicker was how to clear one of those used IDs to reprogram for another engine- nothing else can be transmitting BT or RF lionchief at the moment. Fine at home, at a club just one more rule.
I get it, for some of you this may be your dream of a "one remote utopia". I see other situations where this just adds a layer of complication and makes me glad for the orange universal remote.
The videos are intended to show the basic operation of adding and removing LionChief engines. They are in no way all encompassing.
The APP and the B3SU (Base3 System Utility) will both include Bluetooth/RF Loco configuration menus where engines can be programmed in and deleted without having to remove an engine from the track, power down the track, or even flip the RUN/PGM switches on the Base3 itself.
We've included so many ways of customizing your engine roster, and thought long and hard about usage both in personal layouts as well as in club settings. But again, the purpose of the basic videos I've been filming is to get the points across enough to get people up and running. If I dove into all the other complexities of the system in the same videos, it would get to be a pretty long and daunting video!
@Sean's Train Depot posted:Those were nice simple instructions. Should be easy to program.
A little disappointed that I would be restricted to those ID's, for the Lionchief especially, as I have Legacy engines using those ID's. I could always reassign my Legacy engines to a higher number, but I always like to use the first 2 or last 2 digits of the road number so I don't have to try and remember them.
I also wasn't expecting to have to clear the Base3 if I just wanted to pick up the Lionchief remote or Universal Remote. That is kind of a cumbersome process if kids just want to run a train and pick up a Lionchief remote. I wonder if you just turn off the Base3 so there is no signal, you could then just use the Lionchief remote. I would think that would work so we wouldn't have to clear the base. Of course, then you can't run other types of engines at the same time.
I like that Lionel is putting out all this information ahead of the release of the Base3. I hope they do it for their other products in the future. It's really nice having these videos out there.
One option for the future that I'm keeping open is setting aside 4-Digit IDs for RF/Bluetooth engines as well. Might be able to do this, but they would only be controllable via the APP.
The engines, especially Bluetooth, are one-to-one pairing. That's why it needs to disconnect from the Base3 before being able to control it with a UR or the LC APP. You can just turn off the Base3 instead of clearing the engine as that disconnects the pair. It's the same as turning the dedicated remote off.
@LionelAG posted:So...helping Dave with a bit of quality control on the new site...
The posted CSM2 manual is not the latest version. The latest is dated 3/21
The posted SER2 manual is not the latest version. The latest is dated 6/21
Noted, though the date was the only change. We update the manual's date when we do another production run.
@David_NJ posted:Maybe a future firmware update could allow the disabling of bluetooth from the Base3 without having to remove and then add back each of the engines you might to temporarily control through the dedicated remote.
I like this idea, but even one step further could be a hardware revision of the BASE3 that makes the BT & RF switches with 3 positions - OFF-RUN-PRG.
It's terrific having Dave Olson posting about things Lionel. Many thanks.
Dave-
i can’t speak for the SER2 manual but there were revised diagrams and text in the CSM2 document. Have studied the CSM2 docs closely.
If anyone is interested Attached is the Base3 Users Guide. This is an early (beta) release so I'm sure it will have some revisions vs. what you get in the box.
Attachments
Files (1)
@Dave Olson posted:The videos are intended to show the basic operation of adding and removing LionChief engines. They are in no way all encompassing.
The APP and the B3SU (Base3 System Utility) will both include Bluetooth/RF Loco configuration menus where engines can be programmed in and deleted without having to remove an engine from the track, power down the track, or even flip the RUN/PGM switches on the Base3 itself.
We've included so many ways of customizing your engine roster, and thought long and hard about usage both in personal layouts as well as in club settings. But again, the purpose of the basic videos I've been filming is to get the points across enough to get people up and running. If I dove into all the other complexities of the system in the same videos, it would get to be a pretty long and daunting video!
One option for the future that I'm keeping open is setting aside 4-Digit IDs for RF/Bluetooth engines as well. Might be able to do this, but they would only be controllable via the APP.
The engines, especially Bluetooth, are one-to-one pairing. That's why it needs to disconnect from the Base3 before being able to control it with a UR or the LC APP. You can just turn off the Base3 instead of clearing the engine as that disconnects the pair. It's the same as turning the dedicated remote off.
Noted, though the date was the only change. We update the manual's date when we do another production run.
Once you turn off the Base 3 and it disconnects and then you connect the LC with the remote, I am guessing then you can turn Base back on and run other engines at same time? Is that true?
Thanks
Keep those Base-3 videos coming, Dave. Also, when is the Power/Control website coming online? You said it would be online sometime in January in your last live video. I've already ordered the Base-3 for my new layout that I'm building. These new videos are making me more excited for the new system.
@Dylan the Train Man posted:Keep those Base-3 videos coming, Dave. Also, when is the Power/Control website coming online? You said it would be online sometime in January in your last live video. I've already ordered the Base-3 for my new layout that I'm building. These new videos are making me more excited for the new system.
Thanks David for the link! I didn't know the website was already online. I'll be checking it out.
Dave, if you use the new to be available lionchief app to set whistle various tones and to ajust all idividual volume levels with locomotives equipped with Bluetooth.Then go back to using a cab2 or cab1L. Do they stay as you have set them with the app?
I Know it works like that with the lionchief app as it is now. This is a nice work around compared to just using the cab2 volumes up and down. Pressing aux1 only lowers back ground sounds. With using the app it will ajust more sound levels independent of each other. Such as the engine sound volume lower than the horn volume. Bell volume lowered or the crew talk louder and all the other volumes turned down.
This work around is great in my apartment for running locos so I dont get too loud and bother my neighbors. Especially with more than one egine running.
It's inevitable that at some point in the future, some parts will go out of stock. However, the overall construction does appear to be somewhat modular so finding replacements and integrating them could be a little easier. Depending on how much the product would have to be re-engineered to make those replacements work could mean you'll need to resubmit for FCC testing.
Think about it, there are a lot of different integrated radio RF signals coming out of this thing:
- 455KHz Track & earth ground signal
- 2.4Ghz wireless for CAB1L & CAB2
- 2.4GHz Bluetooth
- 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi
- LC RF (2.4 GHz?)
I'm thinking Lionel ordered more than enough spare parts to keep production alive and healthy for quite a while.
OK guys....first, we delete posts for certain reasons. The posts made a little while ago questioning why we deleted a post with a link in this thread were also deleted. In this case, we received a request by a very credible source (that is all I am going to share). DON'T re-post something we deleted. The manual was not requested by this source to be taken down. If we do get a request to do so, it will also be deleted.
Secondly, keep the conversation here about the purpose of the topic and leave the whining and speculation about parts availability AFTER the product is on the market. If you have concerns, contact Dave directly. He has shown that he and his team are willing to discuss concerns so long as you are civil.
Question for Dave. I know on some of my other BT gear, like speakers, it sometimes refuses to pair with my phone. I end up having to do a reset of the speaker. Would that be something i might have to do with an engine?
