Adding LEDs MTH 20-80005A

Here's the stock powered car. 

If you're replacing 6V bulbs driven by a PS2 board, then you are correct to place a resistor before the LED(s).  470 Ohms is a good starting point; in general there is a fairly broad range of acceptable resistor value depending on number and configuration of the LEDs (in series, in parallel, whatever.  Some guys like to use those 5V or 12V LED light strips as they are so easy to work with; those would involve a different resistor calculation.  

What LEDs/circuit did you use for the un-powered cars?

Are you operating command-control or strictly conventional?  It always amuses me how the powered unit's interior lights are controllable for startup/shutdown or during operation, but the un-powered cars are always lit no matter what.  Is this really acceptable?  That is, if going thru the trouble of tricking-out your subway set, why not something more aspirational like slaving the unpowered car lights to the powered car's interior light.  Or having the trailing car's lights slaved to the backup light on the powered car? 

The sparking LED circuit could be powered by the motor voltage in the powered unit.  So the sparking would only occur when the powered unit is moving.

You might comment on your comfort level working at the component level...soldering tiny resistors, using a digital multimeter, understanding polarity of LEDs, capacitors, and so on.

stan2004 posted:

If you're replacing 6V bulbs driven by a PS2 board, then you are correct to place a resistor before the LED(s).  470 Ohms is a good starting point; in general there is a fairly broad range of acceptable resistor value depending on number and configuration of the LEDs (in series, in parallel, whatever.  Some guys like to use those 5V or 12V LED light strips as they are so easy to work with; those would involve a different resistor calculation.  

What LEDs/circuit did you use for the un-powered cars?

Are you operating command-control or strictly conventional?  It always amuses me how the powered unit's interior lights are controllable for startup/shutdown or during operation, but the un-powered cars are always lit no matter what.  Is this really acceptable?  That is, if going thru the trouble of tricking-out your subway set, why not something more aspirational like slaving the unpowered car lights to the powered car's interior light.  Or having the trailing car's lights slaved to the backup light on the powered car? 

The sparking LED circuit could be powered by the motor voltage in the powered unit.  So the sparking would only occur when the powered unit is moving.

You might comment on your comfort level working at the component level...soldering tiny resistors, using a digital multimeter, understanding polarity of LEDs, capacitors, and so on.

Lots of good info here thanks. I run my MTH stuff in command mode but I can run conventional if need be. The powered units interior lights are controlled by track power, the end lights (headlights/tail lights, route sign/letter ect) are controlled by the board and can be turned off via the remote which is stupid. For the non powered cars I just used a 12v LED strip (see video), and for the rear car lights I used 3mm white LEDs and a 330 ohm resistor on each LED. I'm fine with the lights the way they are in terms of operation. I would like to have the end cars headlights and tail lights (and for that matter, the destination board lights too) be directionally controlled but its not the end of the world if I can't. For now, I'd just like the powered car to look like the end car, the sparking shoe effect can come later. As far as soldering goes, I haven't soldered SMD components yet, I understand the polarity of LEDs and capacitors. I can't find the photo, but I found an interior of a powered PS1 subway car and it uses the Christmas tree style bulbs, If I could, I'd just replace them with the LED strips but I don't think the clearances of the powered car would allow for the strip to be used, I remember reading about that somewhere that converting the powered subway cars isn't as easy as the non powered cars.  

Tinkering around in most powered units is a bit more work than inside an empty shell of an unpowered unit.   With that said, I can't imagine that it's all that difficult to put LED strips in place of the push-in bulbs.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Tinkering around in most powered units is a bit more work than inside an empty shell of an unpowered unit.   With that said, I can't imagine that it's all that difficult to put LED strips in place of the push-in bulbs.

I suppose I could see if it would work. I'll crack it open and see if it would work and report back. 

Yes, post photos of the powered car from as many angles as you have the time/patience.  Somehow I don't think we're on the same page (or at least I'm not on the same page as you and GRJ).  That is, my understanding of the reason the powered unit does NOT use the "native" built-in Interior Light circuit of the PS2 is it can only drive 2 or 3 bulbs.  Interior light is typically just the cab light in a steam/diesel or similar small space...whereas in a subway you're trying to light up an entire car.  BUT, if you're converting to LED operation which is typically 5-10 times more efficient, then you can indeed use the PS2's "native" Interior-Light circuit and have the benefit of command-control of the lights.

Here's some interior shots. I can post more if need be. This looks to be a job no matter what I do. 

Looks like six LED's in the positions of the incandescent fixtures would do the trick.  If you point them down and use frosted LED's to disperse the light, they'd work great.  The bonus is they don't get hot, and you could power them all from a PS/2 lighting circuit if desired.  Perhaps the interior light output could be tasked to control those lights.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like six LED's in the positions of the incandescent fixtures would do the trick.  If you point them down and use frosted LED's to disperse the light, they'd work great.  The bonus is they don't get hot, and you could power them all from a PS/2 lighting circuit if desired.  Perhaps the interior light output could be tasked to control those lights.

Cool. That'll probably be the easiest way to go. I have 3mm white LEDs and 330 ohm resistors ready to go. Would 330 work or should I go higher? My object is to get the powered car looking like the non powered cars (already converted) 

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like six LED's in the positions of the incandescent fixtures would do the trick.  If you point them down and use frosted LED's to disperse the light, they'd work great.  The bonus is they don't get hot, and you could power them all from a PS/2 lighting circuit if desired.  Perhaps the interior light output could be tasked to control those lights.

Cool. That'll probably be the easiest way to go. I have 3mm white LEDs and 330 ohm resistors ready to go. Would 330 work or should I go higher? My object is to get the powered car looking like the non powered cars (already converted) 

If you use the 6 discrete LEDs for overhead lighting in the powered car, doesn't this just light up the windows.  It seems to me the door are DARK in the powered card...but nicely lit in the unpowered cars where you used the 12V LED strips.  I realize there's a lot the motors/electronics and other stuff make it difficult to uniformly light up the interior of the powered car.

But it's your call.  It just seems to me that if going thru the effort, it might be worth looking at how to light up the door area.  LEDs are just a few pennies each and use a fraction of the power of bulbs.  They come in various sizes/shapes which make it practical/economical to use more of them than bulbs.

Separately, does anyone have a wiring diagram for this subway car?  It seems there is a lighting distribution board separate from the PS2 board-set.  Presumably there's also some kind of voltage regulator circuit to power the 6 bulbs for interior lighting?

stan2004 posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like six LED's in the positions of the incandescent fixtures would do the trick.  If you point them down and use frosted LED's to disperse the light, they'd work great.  The bonus is they don't get hot, and you could power them all from a PS/2 lighting circuit if desired.  Perhaps the interior light output could be tasked to control those lights.

Cool. That'll probably be the easiest way to go. I have 3mm white LEDs and 330 ohm resistors ready to go. Would 330 work or should I go higher? My object is to get the powered car looking like the non powered cars (already converted) 

If you use the 6 discrete LEDs for overhead lighting in the powered car, doesn't this just light up the windows.  It seems to me the door are DARK in the powered card...but nicely lit in the unpowered cars where you used the 12V LED strips.  I realize there's a lot the motors/electronics and other stuff make it difficult to uniformly light up the interior of the powered car.

But it's your call.  It just seems to me that if going thru the effort, it might be worth looking at how to light up the door area.  LEDs are just a few pennies each and use a fraction of the power of bulbs.  They come in various sizes/shapes which make it practical/economical to use more of them than bulbs.

Separately, does anyone have a wiring diagram for this subway car?  It seems there is a lighting distribution board separate from the PS2 board-set.  Presumably there's also some kind of voltage regulator circuit to power the 6 bulbs for interior lighting?

 

You're probably right. I think it would just light up the windows. I could replace the bulbs with LEDs and add a 12v strip to the roof to light up the door section, or would that be too bright? Or I could just disconnect the bulbs completely and use just a strip mounted to the roof. I have some quick disconnect plugs I could use. I'm not sure what to do now.  

A little update. I'll definitely need both the LEDs on the roof and the sides. Heres just the LED strip mounted on the roof with the room lights on and off. 

Yep, all the stuff in the powered unit kinda' blocks most of the light.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, all the stuff in the powered unit kinda' blocks most of the light.

Sure does. 

Got my LEDs (for the sides) ready to go. What's the easiest way to go about this as far as pulling the bulbs out? Also, the little solder contacts on the top of the electronics shield go to hot and common, could I use that to power the LED strip that'll go on the roof? 

The bulbs come straight out, and the holders will fall off the metal gridwork easily as well.  Just put some heatshrink around the LED assemblies so you don't get sparks.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The bulbs come straight out, and the holders will fall off the metal gridwork easily as well.  Just put some heatshrink around the LED assemblies so you don't get sparks.

Will do. Should I try to keep the holders to hold the LEDs? Or use some other method to hold the LEDs on? 

Hot glue.   I wouldn't screw around with the holders if it were me.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hot glue.   I wouldn't screw around with the holders if it were me.

Alright. I'll have to get a hot glue gun as I don't have one. What about the roof mounted strip? Would the little pads shown above work for power? 

Success! I'll add in the strip to the roof next. 

Chris Lonero posted:

Just my 2 cents here but I just recently installed LED strips in my red birds and didn't bother with the interior lights on the powered unit except the front lights which I installed Evans LED's.   What I did do was use GRJ Light regulators for my LED strips. Other than them working perfectly you can adjust the brightness of the strip to possibly close enough so they would look good with the factory lights. I love LED's but I didn't think it was worth trying to make something work especially when their are no passengers in a Railking powered unit.  

https://hennings-trains.shopli...regulator-2-pcs.html

Thanks for the input. I really wanted to change the lights to the correct cool white color which is what I got in the whole train now minus the end lights of the powered unit which will come later. 

Wired in the LED strip to the roof. Here's the finished product for now. Next will be the end lights and the sparking shoes. 

Now for the end lights. Looks like the easiest thing to do is to remove the electronics shield and pull the plugs for each light and make them like seen in the photo and reconnect them? Any thoughts on this before I start pulling stuff? 

Are you going to have any issues running them off the board?  I have a similar set up on my BMT car and I'm thinking of powering off the hot and ground coming off the truck.  I replaced a screw in LED on a tinplate model and ended up blowing the board so I've been gun shy ever since.

The PS/2 lighting outputs will supply 200ma or more of 6V current.

Chris Lonero posted:

Are you going to have any issues running them off the board?  I have a similar set up on my BMT car and I'm thinking of powering off the hot and ground coming off the truck.  I replaced a screw in LED on a tinplate model and ended up blowing the board so I've been gun shy ever since.

I could do that. I really don't care about control of them on the remote. The only lights I would want hooked up to the board is the headlight and taillights so they will change when it runs it out and back mode. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The PS/2 lighting outputs will supply 200ma or more of 6V current.

So you think that won't be a problem?  John is way more versed on these things than I am!

Chris Lonero posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The PS/2 lighting outputs will supply 200ma or more of 6V current.

So you think that won't be a problem?  John is way more versed on these things than I am!

You just have to add up the loads.  Many locomotives have three incandescent bulbs on the circuit, and a couple have four.  The incandescent bulbs are 60ma bulbs, so I'm comfortable with 200ma total load on one lighting circuit.

Well if it'll be alright to do. I guess I'll get to work. I'll just leave the bulbs connected to the board (the way they are now) 

Getting started. Before I blow anything, which wire is hot? 

Neither wire can ever be grounded, they're both "hot" in that regard.  The lighting circuits have PV (roughly 20 volts DC) on one lead and a PWM signal that yields an effective voltage of around 6 volts for driving the lights.  Grounding either one will do some significant damage.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Neither wire can ever be grounded, they're both "hot" in that regard.  The lighting circuits have PV (roughly 20 volts DC) on one lead and a PWM signal that yields an effective voltage of around 6 volts for driving the lights.  Grounding either one will do some significant damage.

Cool. I just don't want to blow anything. Is there one that would connect to the positive lead of the LED? 

Yes, PV is the positive lead, when you trace it back to colored wires, it should be purple.  Of course, if that's difficult, use a meter to see which one is positive.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, PV is the positive lead, when you trace it back to colored wires, it should be purple.  Of course, if that's difficult, use a meter to see which one is positive.

Will do. Thanks. 

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, PV is the positive lead, when you trace it back to colored wires, it should be purple.  Of course, if that's difficult, use a meter to see which one is positive.

Will do. Thanks. 

I got one LED installed. I used my meter to find the positive lead but it's not lighting up. Any ideas? Btw, I don't have any tubing on the LED yet only because I want to make sure it works first before I tube it. 

Is there voltage on the light output?  Are you sure the LED is good?  Are you sure the polarity is right?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Is there voltage on the light output?  Are you sure the LED is good?  Are you sure the polarity is right?

1. There should be. It was working fine before I pulled the bulb for the LED. 

2. Yes, I checked it with a battery before installing it. 

3. I'm pretty sure, I checked it with my meter before I wired the LED. Should I try changing the wires around and see if it lights up? 

Never mind. I had it wired wrong. I got it to work. 

Well, there are only a few reasons why it wouldn't light. 

• The LED is bad.
• The polarity is reversed.
• The light output voltage is not present.

Barring those reasons, the LED should light.