Additional layouts that should participate at York

Add SGMA to the list.

@NIKHIL posted:

..River City 3-Railers (@Putnam Division, @Gilly@N&W, etc.) - They can either set up their large modular layout or smaller portable layouts depending on what is most convenient for them. They can also choose to either set up the modular layout by themselves or combine it with the National Capital Trackers as seen on this thread....

Since the River City 3-railers demonstrated a successful pairing with the NCT, I would like to see a mega joint layout.

There's plenty of room in the purple hall for more.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Add SGMA to the list.

Their layout was AWESOME and I was disappointed that they were not at the Spring 2022 meet.

@Mallard4468 and @Frank Mulligan, I completely get your point. I had said in my initial post that they can indeed pair with the NCT to create a mega joint layout OR they can operate as a standalone exhibit (whichever one they prefer depending on which York).

As for SGMA, you are right that the SGMA layout is awesome - I just didn't see a point in adding that to the list since they already have a breakfast and show & tell at the Verandah Room restaurant at the Fairgrounds.

I also remember that the Yadkin & Catawba Model Railroad Club (Two of its members are forum members - @Dennis S and @JerryB) were set to participate at York. Any updates regarding that? Latest update I had seen was that they plan to "expand the modular layout to include turnouts, a yard, bridges, and other animated features." Those would be good features to debut at York and that club would therefore be a good participant! And when they do, they should participate at the same frequency as some of the other clubs, including:

1. Eagle Line Railroad
2. National Capital Trackers
3. Washington & Old Dominion S Gauge Club
4. Lionel FasTrack Modular Railroad (includes layouts such as Kid's Creek Railroad Sponsored by METCA & TCA and Kids Run Trains)
5. Lower Susquehanna Valley Modular Railroaders
6. Lebanon Valley Railroad Club

@Mallard4468 posted:

Add SGMA to the list.

Since the River City 3-railers demonstrated a successful pairing with the NCT, I would like to see a mega joint layout.

There's plenty of room in the purple hall for more.

The RC3R thing only happened because theres a couple of joint members of both clubs who put some brain power together and there weren't that many issues to reconcile. Special modules had to be built to mate one club spec to the other.

A lack of any standard whatsoever with regard to 3 rail modular construction, track spacing and wiring makes this nothing more than a pipe dream. There is nothing like Ntrak which would allow for simple plug and go construction.

Insofar as clubs showing up, unless you understand what it takes to do it, I'm not sure the expectation should be put on any club to show up. Unless its local, you're looking at Wednesday to Saturday in hotels/restaurants, times all the participating members, not withstanding the months of prep time to put on some of these York layouts.  And yes, I know what I'm talking about. That triple deck Tracker layout from a few years ago? The modules that made all that happen were built in my garage. Design and planning probably took 6 months. That three level module took weeks to build so it all lined up right. That layout took 24 hours to set up on site. It was still tempermental to operate it all week.

If clubs want to do it, they'll do it. But you need to understand what it takes to do York with a layout before volunteering these folks to come. If you want to see these clubs, look up their schedules, get in the car and go see them.  I think River City is semi-permanently set up in a store front south of Richmond at the moment.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

The RC3R thing only happened because theres a couple of joint members of both clubs who put some brain power together and there weren't that many issues to reconcile. Special modules had to be built to mate one club spec to the other.

A lack of any standard whatsoever with regard to 3 rail modular construction, track spacing and wiring makes this nothing more than a pipe dream. There is nothing like Ntrak which would allow for simple plug and go construction.

Insofar as clubs showing up, unless you understand what it takes to do it, I'm not sure the expectation should be put on any club to show up. Unless its local, you're looking at Wednesday to Saturday in hotels/restaurants, times all the participating members, not withstanding the months of prep time to put on some of these York layouts.  And yes, I know what I'm talking about. That triple deck Tracker layout from a few years ago? The modules that made all that happen were built in my garage. Design and planning probably took 6 months. That three level module took weeks to build so it all lined up right. That layout took 24 hours to set up on site. It was still tempermental to operate it all week.

If clubs want to do it, they'll do it. But you need to understand what it takes to do York with a layout before volunteering these folks to come. If you want to see these clubs, look up their schedules, get in the car and go see them.  I think River City is semi-permanently set up in a store front south of Richmond at the moment.

All it takes to mate the 3-railers and NCT together is two transition modules; they already exist.

I'm a member of a modular club too - I have extensive firsthand knowledge of what it takes to attend a show.  It's a lot of work, and those who undertake the process deserve a lot of credit.

And I resent your implication that I'm unaware of the work involved - IMO, such snark is totally unnecessary in this forum.

The Midwest Hi Railers actually created a standard over twenty years ago. Some clubs followed it and many others did their own thing. FCTT Hirailers and Central New York Group followed that standard and have run a few times together. I believe Liberty uses it as well and has run with us twice at York.

And yes indeed, it takes a ton of time and money to setup at any show in particular those more than an hour or two away from home base.

Pete

@Mallard4468 posted:

All it takes to mate the 3-railers and NCT together is two transition modules; they already exist.

I'm a member of a modular club too - I have extensive firsthand knowledge of what it takes to attend a show.  It's a lot of work, and those who undertake the process deserve a lot of credit.

And I resent your implication that I'm unaware of the work involved - IMO, such snark is totally unnecessary in this forum.

@Norton posted:

The Midwest Hi Railers actually created a standard over twenty years ago. Some clubs followed it and many others did their own thing. FCTT Hirailers and Central New York Group followed that standard and have run a few times together. I believe Liberty uses it as well and has run with us twice at York.

And yes indeed, it takes a ton of time and money to setup at any show in particular those more than an hour or two away from home base.

Pete

This proves my point. Standard A, Standard B, Standard C.... Its not standard. Everyone plays to their own rulebook. You cant put that together somewhere like York for the first time. If every 3rd module is a transition module, whats the point? Its far more complicated than just 2 transition modules. And who would want to troubleshoot the varying wiring?  A black hall filling layout challenges the track length limits of the DCS signal with one club and a single wiring standard. Doing York in room filling fashion is not the same as a normal modular layout. RC3R/NCT worked because the wiring was basically the same save the plugs and sockets. But some sort of "come one, come all" layout akin to an Ntrak or FreeMo setup just isnt feasible.

Some folks see the glass half full other half empty. Sounds like you are a half empty type of guy.
This is not rocket science.
Besides there are a few clubs that could fill a hall by themselves.

Pete

Not half empty, just been there, done that a couple times and don’t feel the need to do it again.

If you think some sort of multi-club, multi-standard setup can be done at York, by all means, best of luck. 

I applaud that River City 3-railers and National Capital Trackers working to display together.   There are many reasons that this is an uncommon occurrence.

1.  Lack of universal module standards:  Physical size of modules,  number of tracks, spacing of tracks, wiring scheme and connectors, module height.

2. Control scheme:  Conventional, TMCC/Legacy, DCS or some combination.  We are equipped to run all 3 system concurrently.  Since DCS does not work well with buss wiring (which modular layouts use) it required considerable time and effort with appropriately placed insulators, power feeds, and Deets filters to get reliable DCS operation.  In order to accommodate conventional operation, we created a block wiring system to allow entry and exit to the yard.  And TMCC/Legacy has its own challenges since it is dependent on the ground wiring of the building, and a properly grounded power outlet.  Joining with another group and doubling the size of the layout is likely to produce unreliable operation.  Or perhaps a group only runs one control system

3.  Sharing 3 tracks across 2 or more modular clubs reduces the opportunity for club members to run their trains

4.  Setup is already complex and time consuming, and would be more so when combining groups.  For example our teardown of our 2 modular layouts (O and HO) took 100 man hours.  Setup took even longer.

Our group is in York Pa, so fortunately we don't need to struggle with the logistics and expense of travel.  We did however come off a 10 day display at the York Fair in July and a 3 days display in Strasburg in August.  As a result, we did decline to display at October TCA, but we have offered to do so in April 2023.

Bob Glorioso

President, Stillmeadow Crossing Modular Train Group

Standards aside, i bet it takes a lot of work to set these up.  Add travel, hotel, food, time away from home, its a big ask.  Other than getting to set up and run the layout given the logistics what do these clubs gain?

@RRDOC posted:

I applaud that River City 3-railers and National Capital Trackers working to display together.   There are many reasons that this is an uncommon occurrence.

1.  Lack of universal module standards:  Physical size of modules,  number of tracks, spacing of tracks, wiring scheme and connectors, module height.

2. Control scheme:  Conventional, TMCC/Legacy, DCS or some combination.  We are equipped to run all 3 system concurrently.  Since DCS does not work well with buss wiring (which modular layouts use) it required considerable time and effort with appropriately placed insulators, power feeds, and Deets filters to get reliable DCS operation.  In order to accommodate conventional operation, we created a block wiring system to allow entry and exit to the yard.  And TMCC/Legacy has its own challenges since it is dependent on the ground wiring of the building, and a properly grounded power outlet.  Joining with another group and doubling the size of the layout is likely to produce unreliable operation.  Or perhaps a group only runs one control system

3.  Sharing 3 tracks across 2 or more modular clubs reduces the opportunity for club members to run their trains

4.  Setup is already complex and time consuming, and would be more so when combining groups.  For example our teardown of our 2 modular layouts (O and HO) took 100 man hours.  Setup took even longer.

Our group is in York Pa, so fortunately we don't need to struggle with the logistics and expense of travel.  We did however come off a 10 day display at the York Fair in July and a 3 days display in Strasburg in August.  As a result, we did decline to display at October TCA, but we have offered to do so in April 2023.

Bob Glorioso

President, Stillmeadow Crossing Modular Train Group

@RRDOC That is awesome. I highly encourage you to keep participating at the York TCA meets more often - I've seen the pictures of your modular exhibits and you gentlemen have done outstanding work.

@Boilermaker1 posted:

That triple deck Tracker layout from a few years ago? The modules that made all that happen were built in my garage. Design and planning probably took 6 months. That three level module took weeks to build so it all lined up right. That layout took 24 hours to set up on site. It was still temperamental to operate it all week.

Boilermaker's memory is failing in his old age (he's younger than me), that layout was a year in planning. Setting up a layout outside of club's normal base of operation is extremely involved. Add to that things like those participating want to disappear and shop when the show opens.

@Mallard4468 posted:

All it takes to mate the 3-railers and NCT together is two transition modules; they already exist.

I'm a member of a modular club too - I have extensive firsthand knowledge of what it takes to attend a show.  It's a lot of work, and those who undertake the process deserve a lot of credit.

And I resent your implication that I'm unaware of the work involved - IMO, such snark is totally unnecessary in this forum.

Those transition modules were about 9-10 months in the making. None of these things are done by decree, especially if the club membership is asked to participate. Those modules are only good for NCT RC3R, the chances of those modules of being able to work with another club other those 2 is probably nil.

@Norton posted:

Some folks see the glass half full other half empty. Sounds like you are a half empty type of guy.
This is not rocket science.
Besides there are a few clubs that could fill a hall by themselves.

Pete

Yes, the Trackers have done so 3 times. As the membership gets older, slower, and grayer (myself included), it becomes increasingly more difficult to do.

@RRDOC posted:

I applaud that River City 3-railers and National Capital Trackers working to display together.   There are many reasons that this is an uncommon occurrence.

1.  Lack of universal module standards:  Physical size of modules,  number of tracks, spacing of tracks, wiring scheme and connectors, module height.

2. Control scheme:  Conventional, TMCC/Legacy, DCS or some combination.  We are equipped to run all 3 system concurrently.  Since DCS does not work well with buss wiring (which modular layouts use) it required considerable time and effort with appropriately placed insulators, power feeds, and Deets filters to get reliable DCS operation.  In order to accommodate conventional operation, we created a block wiring system to allow entry and exit to the yard.  And TMCC/Legacy has its own challenges since it is dependent on the ground wiring of the building, and a properly grounded power outlet.  Joining with another group and doubling the size of the layout is likely to produce unreliable operation.  Or perhaps a group only runs one control system

3.  Sharing 3 tracks across 2 or more modular clubs reduces the opportunity for club members to run their trains

4.  Setup is already complex and time consuming, and would be more so when combining groups.  For example our teardown of our 2 modular layouts (O and HO) took 100 man hours.  Setup took even longer.

Our group is in York Pa, so fortunately we don't need to struggle with the logistics and expense of travel.  We did however come off a 10 day display at the York Fair in July and a 3 days display in Strasburg in August.  As a result, we did decline to display at October TCA, but we have offered to do so in April 2023.

Bob Glorioso

President, Stillmeadow Crossing Modular Train Group

Well said!  I can't imagine the manhours in setup of some of the Tracker layouts, the one referenced above was 24 hours of setup time , but there were many people involved over that timespan.

@RRDOC posted:

2. And TMCC/Legacy has its own challenges since it is dependent on the ground wiring of the building, and a properly grounded power outlet.  Joining with another group and doubling the size of the layout is likely to produce unreliable operation.  Or perhaps a group only runs one control system

Bob Glorioso

President, Stillmeadow Crossing Modular Train Group

Case and point, the NCT RC3R layout had TMCC/Legacy issues. Fortunately one of our members is  an electrician and was able to diagnose and fix the problem.

@L & N posted:

Yes, the Trackers have done so 3 times. As the membership gets older, slower, and grayer (myself included), it becomes increasingly more difficult to do.

We have done York four times including twice by ourselves, twice combined with another club not that we needed the modules. Its all about the man power and having enough members willing to give their time and charity to attend. Not only do we not get paid to setup and operate a layout but still have to pay ourselves to attend.

When is the last time you attended a concert or athletic event and the headliner paid you to show up?

Pete

@necrails posted:

Standards aside, i bet it takes a lot of work to set these up.  Add travel, hotel, food, time away from home, its a big ask.  Other than getting to set up and run the layout given the logistics what do these clubs gain?

Your question is a good one. It does take a lot of work to set these up, and if you add the other factors you listed, it is a big task. So, I may have a slightly harder time explaining why the Eastern Carolina Railroaders or Modular Railroad Partners should participate (other than the fact that they have the same standard and they have had a good relationship with the other participating FasTrack modular clubs), but some of the others on my list can participate. For instance, the Baltimore Area American Flyer Club is in Baltimore, which is less than a 2-hour drive from York, so they may be able to participate. And the Stillmeadow Group is IN York, which is why they are the easiest layout to have participate more frequently.

With regard to the other clubs, the the Silver Rail Club, based in Richmond (same city as River City 3-Railers), can participate because it has a layout that can assembled in about an hour. Plus, not only is the layout wheelchair accessible, but it is also the right height for kids. So this may help encourage more people to bring their grandkids to foster the next generation of hobbyists. They provide the trains, track, accessories, tables, along with books, video and music too!

@RRDOC posted:

I applaud that River City 3-railers and National Capital Trackers working to display together.   There are many reasons that this is an uncommon occurrence.

1.  Lack of universal module standards:  Physical size of modules,  number of tracks, spacing of tracks, wiring scheme and connectors, module height.

2. Control scheme:  Conventional, TMCC/Legacy, DCS or some combination.  We are equipped to run all 3 system concurrently.  Since DCS does not work well with buss wiring (which modular layouts use) it required considerable time and effort with appropriately placed insulators, power feeds, and Deets filters to get reliable DCS operation.  In order to accommodate conventional operation, we created a block wiring system to allow entry and exit to the yard.  And TMCC/Legacy has its own challenges since it is dependent on the ground wiring of the building, and a properly grounded power outlet.  Joining with another group and doubling the size of the layout is likely to produce unreliable operation.  Or perhaps a group only runs one control system

3.  Sharing 3 tracks across 2 or more modular clubs reduces the opportunity for club members to run their trains

4.  Setup is already complex and time consuming, and would be more so when combining groups.  For example our teardown of our 2 modular layouts (O and HO) took 100 man hours.  Setup took even longer.

Our group is in York Pa, so fortunately we don't need to struggle with the logistics and expense of travel.  We did however come off a 10 day display at the York Fair in July and a 3 days display in Strasburg in August.  As a result, we did decline to display at October TCA, but we have offered to do so in April 2023.

Bob Glorioso

President, Stillmeadow Crossing Modular Train Group

Bob.....I concur fully......lack of uniform standards is a big issue......there was at least 80 man-hours of work (probably more)  to build two new modules so we could connect....planning, carpentry, wiring , scenery and detailing. The planning started a year ago. We started building in late June and finished last Tuesday! The time was worth it and the integration was seamless.

Let me say, that working with the Trackers was fantastic. They are wonderful and great to run trains with. In fact, Tom and I officially joined the Trackers last year and have run with them at non-TCA events over the last 15 months.

The control system issues are also huge, as Bob said. My DCS engines worked fine this time. My Legacy/TMCC engines did not. However, some members had success with Legacy/TMCC......go figure......we were having ground issues in the building.

The time and expense are also huge.....you need some young people (let's face it, there is a lot of heavy lifting!). However, they are more likely to have jobs and family responsibilities.....and, less discretionary income for food and lodging, etc. So, a lot of time, you are left with a core of "healthy" older guys who are mostly retired. Time impacts set up....and, take down. Tom and I left Richmond 4AM on Wednesday and got home 10:30 PM Satuday night. Between the two of us, we easily spent $8-900 on lodging, gas, tolls and food. When I had a young family, saving for college, that would be off the table.

In addition, the logistics of getting everything together in the right place, at the right time, etc, takes weeks of planning......and, as with every club, there is a core that does most of the work.

So, though it would be great to have loads of groups at York every time.....it is more likely that we will see a lot of groups rotating over the years, with about 3 or 4 every show (hopefully). Personally, I can't wait to come back! I had a blast!

Bob, another observation that gave me a chuckle.......you retired and are now President of your group....less than a month after I retired, I became President of RC3R.

As an aside, Bob and I have a connection from way back.  Bob and my future wife were classmates at the University of Maryland Medical School when I was an Internal Medicine Resident.....we hadn't seen each other in nearly 40 years and we put two and two together about 5 years ago when the Stillmeadow group was running trains at York.

Peter Condro

President, River City 3 Railers

@NIKHIL posted

1. @O-gauge Eastern Carolina Railroaders and Modular Railroad Partners should participate more often with their modules to lash up with Kids Creek Railroad, METCA, and Kids Run Trains.

Let me know your opinion

Hey there.
It would have been nice to see all of our friends at Fall York. However, we had a massive showing at the 2022 LCCA Convention in Nashville and it was just too much to get all of the FasTrack Modular Railroaders together again.

David and Tony from ECRR were there everyday. I am surprised you missed them.

I am always happy to lash up with Modular Railroad Partners. They are amazing modelers.

The concept behind FasTrack Modular Railroading allows for any module owner to lash up at York. All you need to do is bring your modules and we will flex to bring it all together.

~Kevin

The one missing from the list is really the first modular group that started it all over 30 plus years ago, The Raritan Valley Hi-Railers.  They are always at the Greenberg shows in NJ.  They have been featured on NYC news stations.  Those clubs listed above are very nice, but Raritan Valley is second to none. You can probably find them on YouTube.

One more point, Eastern Division of TCA should provide a stipend to help offset the cost the clubs incur. I would be open to increasing the cost of of York ticket by 50 cents to go directly to those clubs who display.  

@O-gauge posted:

Hey there.
It would have been nice to see all of our friends at Fall York. However, we had a massive showing at the 2022 LCCA Convention in Nashville and it was just too much to get all of the FasTrack Modular Railroaders together again.

David and Tony from ECRR were there everyday. I am surprised you missed them.

I am always happy to lash up with Modular Railroad Partners. They are amazing modelers.

The concept behind FasTrack Modular Railroading allows for any module owner to lash up at York. All you need to do is bring your modules and we will flex to bring it all together.

~Kevin

The wh—LOL! Sorry if I missed anything- the East Carolina Railroaders banner just wasn’t there in the photos from Oct 2022 York.

@CNJBill posted:

The one missing from the list is really the first modular group that started it all over 30 plus years ago, The Raritan Valley Hi-Railers.  They are always at the Greenberg shows in NJ.  They have been featured on NYC news stations.  Those clubs listed above are very nice, but Raritan Valley is second to none. You can probably find them on YouTube.

One more point, Eastern Division of TCA should provide a stipend to help offset the cost the clubs incur. I would be open to increasing the cost of of York ticket by 50 cents to go directly to those clubs who display.  

RV High railers have exceptional modules.  Lots of detail that endures despite the potential for damage when traveling.

The suggestion for a stipend is reasonable.  As noted above two participants spent 8 or 9 hundred dollars to display, had to pay an entry fee, likely saw little of the show, and put in lots of effort with little return other than some personal satisfaction. Sure it would be great if others displayed but the question remains, and it may sound selfish but what do they gain by showing up.  Here's a thought, let them charge a nominal fee over and above the admission fee for the event.  It could serve as a fund raiser for the club.  If you use up your volunteers at some point the volunteers wear out.  Extra monies could be used by the club's or donated to a worthy cause but asking a club to travel hours, incur the costs of staying there and time away from family is an awfully big ask.

@Putnam Division posted:

As an aside, Bob and I have a connection from way back.  Bob and my future wife were classmates at the University of Maryland Medical School when I was an Internal Medicine Resident.....we hadn't seen each other in nearly 40 years and we put two and two together about 5 years ago when the Stillmeadow group was running trains at York.

Peter Condro

President, River City 3 Railers

I'm still running into guys at train shows that I know from my practice or church or wherever and I had no idea that they were model train hobbyists.  It is always a pleasant surprise.

Bob

@necrails posted:

RV High railers have exceptional modules.  Lots of detail that endures despite the potential for damage when traveling.

The suggestion for a stipend is reasonable.  As noted above two participants spent 8 or 9 hundred dollars to display, had to pay an entry fee, likely saw little of the show, and put in lots of effort with little return other than some personal satisfaction. Sure it would be great if others displayed but the question remains, and it may sound selfish but what do they gain by showing up.  Here's a thought, let them charge a nominal fee over and above the admission fee for the event.  It could serve as a fund raiser for the club.  If you use up your volunteers at some point the volunteers wear out.  Extra monies could be used by the club's or donated to a worthy cause but asking a club to travel hours, incur the costs of staying there and time away from family is an awfully big ask.

I thank you for your suggestion, but there is no way I want the ED to take on the burden of covering costs. We are volunteers. We do it because we love it. Putting the cost on the ED in financial times like these with dwindling membership and attendance  puts an undue strain on them…..we are a registered non-profit……I saw that the donation boxes were full. That’s part of how we defer fixed costs. In Richmond, we have a very successful raffle….we raffle off two sets, one on a completed layout and give a gift certificate to a local shop. Small honoraria help.

However, there is another aspect that money cannot buy……Time and effort. All the money in the world cannot motivate people who don’t want to put in the time and effort. For us, from the 3rd weekend in November to the 3rd weekend in January, we’re committed for Fri/Sat/Sun.

You’ve got to give your people a break……that’s why lots of groups rotating is a good idea.

Peter

I am familiar with some of the clubs mentioned, I’m certain that all of them have something to share with the rest of us. I would venture that some of the clubs mentioned have probably had an offer extended to them but realize that it is beyond their club’s ability to participate.  The reasons can be few or many but those clubs  might have decided that those obstacles can’t be overcome. Most of the reasons have been listed here. Another thing added to the mix is that that the majority of train club members are not TCA members.

@Putnam Division posted:

I thank you for your suggestion, but there is no way I want the ED to take on the burden of covering costs. We are volunteers. We do it because we love it. Putting the cost on the ED in financial times like these with dwindling membership and attendance  puts an undue strain on them…..we are a registered non-profit……I saw that the donation boxes were full. That’s part of how we defer fixed costs. In Richmond, we have a very successful raffle….we raffle off two sets, one on a completed layout and give a gift certificate to a local shop. Small honoraria help.

However, there is another aspect that money cannot buy……Time and effort. All the money in the world cannot motivate people who don’t want to put in the time and effort. For us, from the 3rd weekend in November to the 3rd weekend in January, we’re committed for Fri/Sat/Sun.

You’ve got to give your people a break……that’s why lots of groups rotating is a good idea.

Peter

I agree Peter. It would be great to see more layouts, but not raising membership costs for any member. I know that in 2018 when I was at the Toy Train Museum's open house, a few people that I was mingling with had complained about membership costs, and even at York. It's always the weighing of options, which is better overall?

All I can add is I am very grateful for the clubs that showed up at York with their layouts, it really adds to the show experience. Very few clubs have the finances to take on the cost and manpower that going to a place like York entails on their own. As Peter pointed out, it is a totally volunteer effort and members pay for their travel, hotels and food, and getting into York.

I don't think EDTCA should be involved in helping to support the layouts, quite honestly they already do a lot, and I suspect that they would face a lot of the "what, you raised the price of going to York to X to help support the layouts! I don't go there for the layouts, so why should I pay" types, it just isn't worth it.

Having a fee to enter the purple hall might sort of work , where there is a 'suggested admission fee' that would be divvied up among the groups participating, but not sure that would work any better, too many people who would ignore it, or worse, complain about it.

Probably the best way is donation boxes, when I see them I donate to the groups, because I know it is expensive for them to attend. In a more perfect world dealers and vendors and the like would help support the layouts, because they are a means of promoting the hobby, and sales, but given the nature of our particular corner of the world, not likely going to be seen as worth it with something like York (I have seen sponsorship for where clubs set up during the holidays at various places, local businesses promoting holiday shopping in general).

One suggestion for EDTCA might be when they make an announcement for the layouts in Purple say something like "In the purple hall, we have X, Y and Z groups with their modular layouts. Folks, just a reminder, if you like the layouts, we suggest you may want to donate whatever you can afford to help support them being here"

Donation boxes for layouts would be something that sounds like a good idea. Would the EDTCA allow it(I have no idea if there have been donation boxes for layouts already, maybe I'm not looking in the right spots if there are)? I wouldn't know if this would conflict with any rules that they have in place for York. I believe(not entirely sure) that some of the other shows I have attended maybe in Edison or elsewhere there may have been a donation box. I do seem to remember raffles but I think that was the show organizers that had that.

@L & N posted:

I am familiar with some of the clubs mentioned, I’m certain that all of them have something to share with the rest of us. I would venture that some of the clubs mentioned have probably had an offer extended to them but realize that it is beyond their club’s ability to participate.  The reasons can be few or many but those clubs  might have decided that those obstacles can’t be overcome. Most of the reasons have been listed here. Another thing added to the mix is that that the majority of train club members are not TCA members.

Well, that could be one incentive to get some of these clubs to have TCA members - York participation :-)

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Donation boxes for layouts would be something that sounds like a good idea. Would the EDTCA allow it(I have no idea if there have been donation boxes for layouts already, maybe I'm not looking in the right spots if there are)?

Donation boxes are allowed at York for the layouts who set up and run.  I've seen them and used them.

-Greg

@L & N posted:

I am familiar with some of the clubs mentioned, I’m certain that all of them have something to share with the rest of us. I would venture that some of the clubs mentioned have probably had an offer extended to them but realize that it is beyond their club’s ability to participate.  The reasons can be few or many but those clubs  might have decided that those obstacles can’t be overcome. Most of the reasons have been listed here. Another thing added to the mix is that that the majority of train club members are not TCA members.

We displayed for the first time in 2005. Most were not TCA members but were allowed as first timers. If you have never been to York you can attend even if you are not a TCA member. After that to attend you have to be a member. Pretty sure that rule is still in effect.

Pete

@Greg Houser posted:

Donation boxes are allowed at York for the layouts who set up and run.  I've seen them and used them.

-Greg

Thanks Greg, I'll pay attention and ask where their donation boxes are the next York I attend.

@L & N posted:

Another thing added to the mix is that that the majority of train club members are not TCA members.

Not sure what Eastern Division's current policy is, but in the past they issued passes for all modular club members who are displaying.  We have a number of HO modelers who are not TCA members, but help out with the O scale layout.

Bob

The part that remains most challenging for me and my team are the days. Three day shows are hard. But when those three days are Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.  OUCH!!

Lets not forget that Saturdays are super slow. AND starting at noon we modelers start to see everyone else pack up. Yet, we keep the trains running until the last minute so that we don’t disappoint any kids that arrive late.

As best I can tell there is no requirement to be TCA member to be an exhibitor of a railroad.   In fact many of my crew are not members. Yet all of them are there. The value of having the railroads far exceed the revenue lost by not having handful of folks that are operating the railroads pay. This is an industry practice.

I am biased, but I think that the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters would be a great add to the TCA York operation layouts. The Trainmasters were the first kids club to win the MTH Blue Comet Award and are affiliated with METCA Division of TCA. Active members are aged 10 to 17. The club has been active for over 20 years and always attracts the requisite number of new members every year. I am sure that the members would rather run trains at York than be in school.

http://www.trainmasters.sc4-h.org/index.shtml

@Todds Architectural Models posted:

I am biased, but I think that the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters would be a great add to the TCA York operation layouts. The Trainmasters were the first kids club to win the MTH Blue Comet Award and are affiliated with METCA Division of TCA. Active members are aged 10 to 17. The club has been active for over 20 years and always attracts the requisite number of new members every year. I am sure that the members would rather run trains at York than be in school.

http://www.trainmasters.sc4-h.org/index.shtml

Even though York is a national event, it is still the Eastern Division's meet (so no other TCA divisions usually participate, unless it's a faraway division sponsoring a bus trip). So, it may feel odd for a METCA Youth Club to participate at the Eastern Division's meet.

But yes, SC4HT is a top-notch youth model railroading group! I completely get what you are saying.

Interesting thoughts regarding modular RR clubs and participating at the York, PA show.  FWIW, isnt the Raritain Valley Highrailers an offshoot of the Independent Hi-Railers who really started the modular railroading craze back in the 1980's at Communipaw Terminal in Jersey City? BTW, Steve Horvath of Atlas O was there at the show and he was a member of the Independent Highrailers.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Interesting thoughts regarding modular RR clubs and participating at the York, PA show.  FWIW, isnt the Raritain Valley Highrailers an offshoot of the Independent Hi-Railers who really started the modular railroading craze back in the 1980's at Communipaw Terminal in Jersey City? BTW, Steve Horvath of Atlas O was there at the show and he was a member of the Independent Highrailers.

Looks like it, from the pictures that I have seen. So, the best solution would be to bring back the HiRailers Unlimited meetings that used to happen at York (individual clubs don't necessarily have to participate). Speaking of that, I wonder what happened to www.hirailers.org - that group seems to be defunct.

Steve was my mentor in the early days of the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters, starting in the fall of 2000. I would call, sometimes 15 minutes before a meeting, to ask him the spacing of the three tracks, the standards for wiring colors, ballast color, sources for the connectors, how high to cut the module legs, what a t-nut was, etc. His Independent Hi-Railers were the first adult club to join the Trainmasters in their annual train meet. I did not know what TMCC was and DCS was not not around yet. ( The Trainmasters were one of the first clubs to run DCS in public- Rich Melvin's special run NPR 765). It was great to chat with Steve at York and see a backdrop come to life in 24 hours.