Adventures with My New Legacy PRR S-2

Couldn't have said everything about the engine better myself~

Good review Lee, most are my thoughts exactly. Good luck.

Why road number 682, when the real thing was #6100?

Jack, it's a nod to Lionel's O-27 postwar #682 Turbine.  Sort of like Lionel's recent postwar scale series of their scale F3s and PS-1 boxcars that were painted up in postwar livery and numbers.

Lee,

Good report, I definitely agree those elephant ears are way, way too thick and the simulated coal load is definitely not first rate.  The class light housings seem a bit oversized as well, comparing them to the prototype pic.

The coal load is easy to fix, just apply some white glue or WS Scenic Cement on top and sprinkle on a thin layer of your real coal over it.

Congrats on your recent acquisition! Appearance details are appreciated! Let's face it, for the money it should be better. Don't they know customers have to show off the product to their friends? Then you have to make excuses WHY they didn't get it right. Verrry embarrassing! And for you it's no fun making it right.

Enjoy your new ride. Let's face it, we're really driving the thing!

Thanks Lee for the review. Looks like allot of the previous TMCC S-2 tooling was reused.

Your right about the elephant ears, plus the steps between them and the boiler look way too wide, giveing the locomotive a wider "catch all" as it progresses though sharp curves.

I like the driver modification as well, the bright ones just look odd.

BTW I hope you don't paint this one in UP colors!

 I tried to tell you Lee. 

As with most, if not all, of Lionel's Pennsy engines, I am not a fan of their oversized hinges on the smokebox front.  

I commented on a different thread that the S2 is nowhere near being in the same class as the recent H7.  I bought the H7 and I could not be more impressed with its level of detail.  I planned on purchasing the S2, but after seeing it I am not buying it, I was utterly disappointed.

I have also commented numerous times that there is no continuity in Lionel's pricing scheme.  While I accept that as a reality I still compare prices in my head.  The H7's MSRP of $1350.00 (granted an insane amount of money to pay for a toy) is high but the engine offers a superior level of detail.  The S2's MSRP of $1300.00 does not deliver the same level of detail.  Somehow I can rationalize the expenditure of $1200.00 (what I paid for the H7) but I just can't make that same leap with the S2. 

This is a featureless re-hash of an old TMCC engine with no visible improvments.  To me the S2 is too cool of an engine to be given such a lackluster treatment.  While I will pass on it and hope for better product in 2014, I hope those that bought this engine enjoy it tremendously.

I think the H7 is an outstanding loco - one of the best recent locos.  

In fact, while at my LHS today to get the S-2, I picked up my second Legacy H7, too (the annual train budget is in intensive care right now). 

I have never double headed any steam locos but was inspired by Eliot Scher's discussions of double-heading his 3751 and 3759 Northerns.  I decided to try it with H7s because two of them look like they could pull the world of its axis. 

My new one is on my workbench where I plan to change its number from 3595 to number if 3591 (a 1 being the easiest number to paint in place of the 5, I think).

I'm not really bummed out about buying the S-2.  I wanted a scale S-2, to match with my scale T-1 and the (hopefully soon) forthcoming MTH S-1 I have on order.

I hope Lionel is following this. Thanks Lee.

I was bummed Lee.  For two reasons, I really enjoy the extra smoke features and I started to expect them and secondly because the real S2 was such a unique engine providing Lionel with so much potential to deliver unique toy with a ton of play value.  This engine seemed perfect for a third speaker in the boiler dedicated to turbine sounds.  For me, you can never go wrong with a smoking whistle.  I know many could care less about a smoking whistle, cylinders and dynamos, but I like them, and those that do not could always leave them off.

Maybe my expectations were too high.  I feel MSRPs of $1k and higher merit high expectations.  For me to part with my money the purchase has to at least meet my expecations.  In this case, this fool and his money will not be soon parted.  This S2 fell considerably short...and that is a bummer.

Lionel Pricing:

First off as can be seen by the photo of the real S2 that Lee posted there really is not much to detail.  The S2 had a fairly clean boiler.

Also most probably the tooling used is Mike Wofe's tooling from the 1991 S2 he made for Lionel under contract between him and Richard Kughn.  And later used by Lionel to make the illegal units in 2002. So 22-year old tooling.

I have a MTH RK S2....would love a scale version someday......but $1300 is more than twice what I paid for my 66 Mustang 2+2 in 1975 (worth a LOT more today than the $500 I paid....will the S2?) and can't bring myself to spend that kind of cash for a train. Lee....thanks for the tour anyway....I do enjoy reading about our cool toys!

I got my #6200 with elephant ears last week and love it.  I have wanted one for a long time and am completely satisfied!  And mine was bone dry!

but $1300 is more than twice what I paid for my 66 Mustang 2+2 in 1975 (worth a LOT more today than the $500 I paid....will the S2? 

 

I can answer that. and it's NO! I have the 1990 scale version with the rollerbase and it's so dishartening to see how much of a price drop it is. This new S2 loco has come from this tooling only to have upgraded electronics. eventually this new loco will loose it's value just like the 1991 and 2002 versions. Stick with the 'stang!

The Lionel PRR S2 is undersized in the boiler dept.  No where near fat enough.  A common problem with die cast steamers, as .....The shrink rate calculation for cast zinc is never what it should be, and worse, Many manufactures use the blueprint dimension when calculating O/A boiler diameter.  This results in a tiny chooch because the you lose the thickness of the boiler material, on both sides, plus any extra for lagging and jacketing.  Since these items are not a super tight fit to the boiler, there is even more space that needs to be allowed.  Want a good example? Check the Sunset 3rd Rail AT&SF 5011 against any die cast model of this loco.  Same is also true of the PRR J1 done by both Lionel and Sunset.  Scott got it right !

Marty, methinks when Mountain said his was 'bone dry' he was referring to another members S2 that arrived in very damp packaging, to include rust forming on the owners manual staples.  Not lube.  I could be wrong though.

Comparing the pictures to the two previous scale S2's it does appear Lionel used the same tooling, to include the cast in coal load on the second version.  The first version has a really nice real coal load.

I posted the below on a previous S2 thread, but I feel it's appropriate here also.

I was considering ordering the "Builder's Scheme".  I held out.  I wanted it to be different enough to be, well, different.  It seems Lionel's version is not the 'different' it could have been, or that I would have opened my wallet for, so I'm glad I passed. 

I'm glad, but not happy.  I'd have rather dropped the dough on a nice, new Legacy S2 that captured the "Builders" look.  The only really differrent one of the four just released and the one from 2002.  To come close, and have the ability to make it right, and fall a bit short. 

It seems to be Lionel's mantra lately?

For instance I received the 37940 PRR Hobo Hotel.  The PRR boxcar is advertised as being weathered, as it should be, as a minimum.  But instead it's perfect, new and unblemished.  So close.  The Neil Young PRR F3B.   The added casting material on the trucks looks terrible, and is so unnecessary.  Why?

Other threads on this forum, discussing so close errors, and not just from "rivet counters", but from mostly 'Lionel people', like myself, wondering what is going on.

Lionel was not built on 'good enough', but for some reason it has fallen to that.  I hope there are some positive changes in the wind.  The new Kids stuff is great but someone needs to seriously look at the product for the 'big guys' with the well used platic in our wallets, those of us at the "bottom of the funnel".

Jack, it's a nod to Lionel's O-27 postwar #682 Turbine. <<<<

Because its green, I think its more like a scale sized version of MPC's 1985 O-27 turbine.

That aside, it always amazes me to read how folks can blindly spend the serious big bucks on trains they know won't totally meet their expectations.  They then post their frustration later.

It's as if because its their beloved Lionel, they expected more then what was advertised. 

Joe

I know after I purchase a locomotive unseen and unheard there is that risk of what am I going to get after dropping a grand on a toy.

There are some dissapointments from lack of improvements that could have been made over time.

I believe I am seeing a "cash strapped" Lionel? The recent catalog shows no new improvements or no new tooling with passenger car sets being canceled.

Looks to me that Lionel needs to empty out the warehouse before they start investing in new product.

Wow.  Catalog time!  Lionel is on the ropes again.  LOL!

I'm not sure why this all comes as a surprise to some. Lionel has been on a roll recently of reusing existing tooling and simply upgrading the electronics. I think we will see this trend continue for a while. It is a low cost way for them to get more out of the existing tooling. Is it what the customers wants? Probably not. But how is this any different than MTH upgrading existing PS2 to PS3 models with no real changes other than the drawbars? At least Legacy offers increased play value.

IMHO we will see this trend continue for a while. They will eventually bring the smoke features back, but they will be in models that cost significantly more. Don't be surprised to see prices approaching and exceeding the $2k mark for high end steam.

As far as new tooling goes, I think you see this across the entire model railroad hobby right now. This isn't unique to Lionel. They probably figured that 80% of their customers would be fine with a model like this S2 just because of Legacy. The other 20% will have to just have to wait. It is a smart (if not popular) business decision.

Isn't it funny how our tastes have changed over the years as the products have improved? I remember when I saw the 1990's model for the first time sitting in a case at Kranyak's in Hermitage, PA. It was the most incredible model train I had ever seen in my life. I think the price was about the same as I recall. Now we have such high expectations because we have such recently experienced such an explosion of new tooling over the past 2 decades. If you compare this to a Vision line engine you are likely to be disappointed. If you compare it to the original model you actually are getting better sound and control for about the same money. So personally, I don't think it is nearly the failure that many seem to think.

Would I like to see some features improved and upgraded? Sure. Perhaps someday we will see an improved version. For now at least there is a Legacy S2 for anyone who wants one. If the coal load bothers you, then change it.

My 2 cents...

I think the point is as a customer of any product you do hope for more bang for your buck. If I had the current TMCC version of the S-2, I would not be looking to upgrade for improved electronics.

However, this release does serve the purpose for most people who missed it the first time can aquire one, and enjoy it.

From your lips to Gods ears. Why? Don't know, but it saved us a lot of $$$

Does it have the funky coal load to match postwar trains then?

I guess I am in the 20%

As far as new tooling goes, I think you see this across the entire model railroad hobby right now. This isn't unique to Lionel. They probably figured that 80% of their customers would be fine with a model like this S2 just because of Legacy. The other 20% will have to just have to wait. It is a smart (if not popular) business decision.

I am not buying the S2 as I had planned to do, not for the same money I just spent on the H7.  I don't have the TMCC version released 10 years ago because I was not buying toy trains then.  But even though I don't have the older version I am not going to buy an engine that looks inferior to other non-Vision engines I have such as the ATSF 3751, Big Boy, and H7.  I am a big fan of Lionel, but I will not spend a grand on toy that does not meet the standard they have established with engines I have already purchased.  That's just my opinion, and I am happy for those that buy and love this S2.  Lionel needs the sales so they can get back to producing better engines again.

We buy what we buy. I really won't complain a lot because I wanted an S-2, I didn't have one, and this fills that basic need.  But I recognize this is, perhaps, Lionel's worst recent loco.  Thinking about it: the H7 that I also picked up yesterday is maybe Lionel's best recent loco - so yesterday, I picked up two locos that average out to average quality !

To the larger issue of Lionel and its products and our buying them.  They and MTH really are the only game (mainstream full-product line manufacturers) in town: we sort of have to tolerate both.  I am reminded of my grandfather in the mid 1950s: he drove Cadillacs and bought a new one every couple of years.  I recall that around 1956 or early '57, he really didn't like the '54 or '55 he had been driving for a two years, and I recall him explaining why he then went ahead and bought a new '57 anyway, explaining to my father, "So what option do I have, buy a Lincoln instead?" as if that would be the worst thing possible. (Both he and my Dad were pure, 100% "GM" guys).

>>I am not buying the S2 as I had planned to do, not for the same money I just spent on the H7.<<

Everyone should know Lionel is simply reissuing older scale engines with their newest electronics. Easy to figure out dating the origianl S-2 (one of the oldest) and much later extremely detailed JLC H-7, the S-2 becomes a thinly detailed diecast hulk by comparison. As for detail, IMO, its been downhill at lionel since the demise of the JLC series. Electronics aside, the greatest most detailed set of Lionel scale engines ever built.

Joe 

I purchased Lionel's scale S2 version from about 10-12 years ago.  It is a pretty good running engine and the details seem to match this latest offering.  It is a favorite of mine.   The fit and finish is really nice, superior to the new one from what I am reading.

I just can't see spending big bucks for new electronics and taking a chance on color and finish.  I'm really happy with my S2 #6100.

One of these days I'll do a few photos.

Norm

Posted by Johnsgg1: "Marty, methinks when Mountain said his was 'bone dry' he was referring to another members S2 that arrived in very damp packaging, to include rust forming on the owners manual staples.  Not lube.  I could be wrong though."

You are correct John.  I was not referring to the lubrication of the engine.  Mine did not have the water problem that others reported.  However, I will be checking the lubrication tonight anyway just like I do with all other engines I purchase.

Gotcha...

Of course that is your prerogative, but comparing those models with the S2 is hardly fair. They are much much newer tooling. That would be expected. The H7 was a JLC model and the pinnacle of detail at the time.

The S2 isn't new tooling. It wasn't cataloged as new tooling, so I don't know why anyone would expect it to be anything other than what it is. This isn't a Vision Line S2. It isn't a JLC S2. It isn't a newly tooled S2. I must be the only one that was expecting it to be exactly what it is... Old tooling with new electronics. Tooling is expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars can be spent to tool up a new steam engine. If you don't see "All new tooling!" in the catalog then you shouldn't be surprised.

Like I said, if you look at the price of the first or second run S2s and factor in inflation over the years you are ahead of the game with a Legacy version. If you compare old tooling to the most detailed models Lionel has recently made (new tooling) then you are bound to be disappointed.

I'm sure they will sell enough to turn a tidy profit to those people who liked the older models and want a new Legacy version. For those that were expecting something other than what was advertised you obviously can vote with your wallets.

I'm in this boat as well. 

Admired the original when I first got involved in the late 90's, but it was always still a rather expensive engine without TMCC and somewhat limited Railsounds (which I was very interested in as they came out right before I started).  That's not to say I don't have any conventional, I do, but I also found it hard to spend nearly a grand on a used (or carted around to shows for display) original.  Even the release of the TMCC one didn't seem to drag down the prices people are asking for originals back then. 

When the TMCC one came out, I forget exactly why I didn't pull the trigger to get one.  Might have been other big ticket items I had recently ordered, or maybe something else I wanted more, I don't remember.  Unless someone knows something I don't, I rarely saw this one for sale either on a regular basis, and again, people were generally asking close to original issue price for it (or maybe even more). 

I sincerely doubt I could have picked either one up for less than $800-$900 in the past if I tried to.  (for the second version, there may have been perceived availability issues contributing here due to it being one of the "lawsuit" engines)

So like Marty, this one (assuming the actual finish/deco and functional quality is there on the one I pick up) fits the bill nicely for me.  A Legacy version of the previous unit is OK with me.

-Dave

Johnnyspeed posted:

<<The S2 isn't new tooling. It wasn't cataloged as new tooling, so I don't know why anyone would expect it to be anything other than what it is. This isn't a Vision Line S2. It isn't a JLC S2. It isn't a newly tooled S2. I must be the only one that was expecting it to be exactly what it is... Old tooling with new electronics. Tooling is expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars can be spent to tool up a new steam engine. If you don't see "All new tooling!" in the catalog then you shouldn't be surprised.>>

The above is all well and good, and true.  But the one area Lionel could've excelled was in the "Builders Scheme" version.  Just a matter of matching paint and minor details with the various, available, prototype pictures of the 'as delivered' S2 would've had me buying one.

The opportunity was there but for some reason someone chose to take a cheaper way out.

The big Pennsy S2 was on my "wish list" for years. I picked up the 1991 version last year for $350.

A request for those of you that find the detail of the S2 wanting.  Please empirically quantify and qualify what detail is missing and/or incorrect.  I would like to know what I am missing.

Ron

The large pipes and tanks - whaever they are, on the right side of the loco seem to be smaller than they are in photos.  Many of the pipes, etc., that run all over the loco seem less prominent than in old photos of it.  This may be the paint - I'm considering repainting it flat or satin black, but not sure.

Again, maybe it did not have alot of external equipment and rivet detail and seams to be detailed.  But in photos the S-2 appeared to.  Anyway, alongside the H7, for example, it looks less detailed - not quite toy-like, but less like a really good model than that loco.