Advice on ZW-L Or Staying With My Postwar ZW

I never have had an issue with my ZW running DCS with fuses.  I can't see a benefit the ZWL will provide running through the Legacy system the way you are.  If you want an upgrade, from what I have read the Lionel PH180's would work well.

Many opinions will be coming your way. I’m with Marty Fitzhenry on this one. New trains and new electronic transformers simply go together. I bought the ZWL and love it. Many safety features built in that automatically protect modern engines. The old ZW works great with added external safety features as will be coming your way from those still using them but that’s not for me. 

romiller49 posted:

New trains and new electronic transformers simply go together.

I agree.  I'll throw in another wrinkle.  I went with the ZW-C and I've been very happy with it.  If you are patient, you can get a ZW-C with two 180PH bricks for less than $300.  I've heard that the ZW-C controller unit can "brick" sometimes.  But even if that happens, you still have the PH180's so it's not a total loss.

That said, I wouldn't talk you out of the ZW-L.  Cool toy.  Buy the best and you only cry once!

Guys, the ZW was made way back in the middle of the last century.    The ZW-L  is many times more powerful.  I will not work on any modern engine that is run with a ZW.   If a guy blew a modern board with his ZW and you put in a new board, he expects you to stand behind the new board.  Not going to happen with me.  I know I offend people talking down the ZW.    I know you can change rollers and cords.    Those coils are older than most of the people who use those transformers.  I love and run MTH and Lionel the same.   What I like and respect very much are the people who use the correct transformers with modern electronics.

Some folks do protect things with proper fuses.  That is the smart thing to do.    Yes the ZW-L is not cheap.  I have one and it is worth every penny it cost and more.    I know a few postwar guys that use the ZW and they do ok with the mechanical E unit.    When I first started going to York  (1980) I was buying up items to build a layout.  I purchased two ZW transformers in the yellow hall for $50.00 each.  Over the years they went up in price and I am seeing them sell for a bit less now.   

I wish everyone good luck with whatever the desire to use for a transformer.   I run several Z4000 transformers on my layout.  I also have one ZW-L  and two ROW transformers.  

No need to upgrade from a properly protected ZW to a ZW-L unless you want to change your situation to make use of the 4 Native Legacy controlled throttles of the ZW-L and/or you need more current/power (Amps/Watts) to supply your layout.

For the really power hungry, one can purchase 4 classic ZWs and get more power than a ZW-L for much less costs with the benefit of having 16 taps instead of 4.

The technology in step down transformers basically remains changed since forever ago.

Me, I'm keeping my ZWs and using the savings towards more interesting things. I've yet to find a modern engine that does not operate satisfactory with this setup.

If your service technician cannot back their work, provide the option to install a 25¢ TVS diode to protect their work (and your equipment), or adequately explain the need for Voltage and Current protection via TVS and Breakers/Fuses respectively, it is time to find a new service technician that is competent and not egotistical.

I am not arguing Marty's point but I have been using 2 PW ZW's for over 20 years and have been running the DCS System since it was first introduce and I have never had any issues. I do use a fast blow 10 Amp fuse between each positive and each positive on the TIU and will admit I have gone thru ALOT of fuses in that 20 years. But having 2 ZW's it is hard to justfy the cost of a new transformer even the MTH Z-4000. Marty has a very good point if you use the new stuff you should consider the advantages of a properly compatible transformer or any other accessories.  Keeps everything safe and low risk of smoke checking stuff.

I would do the upgrade.  You would be replacing the legacy power master, tp300, the TVS, and your fuses. All in one neat powerful package. You will go from 275 watts to 640 watts of very protected power. Amp and voltage gauges, all channels fully controlled by the remote. Keep the zw for lights and accessories and leave the zw-l to do the main layout. That zw is close to 70 years old. I think you will be pleased with the new power.

A friend lent me his MTH Z-4000 to try out in place of my ZW.  I'm a conventional operator and noticed the Z-4000 had more power  to run my trains, but I did not like the fixed voltage posts.  The voltage is inadequate for my accessory lights.  The lights were so dim I could hardly see them.  No problem with the variable voltage from the ZW.

So I'm a ZW guy for now.  My track circuits have been protected by fuses for many years due to advice read in OGR;  I have never damaged a modern engine.  I buy 10 amp, 250 volt  fast blow fuses in bulk from DigiKey Electronics.  Yes, I go though quite a few, usually because I haven't properly railed a car or engine.

John

I have been thinking the same thing about what to do when powering a new layout, and the ZW-l seems like a pretty neat unit (expensive as heck..). Outside of the safety protection (which I suspect someone like Marty and some of the other more savvy guys would know if the ZW-L didn't deliver), the only other question I have is if the ZW-L has any incompatibilities. I recall some transformers using clipped sign wave could cause problems with some engines, I likely will be running conventional when the layout is initially built but will likely convert everything I can over to command (probably order the ERR boards), just want to see if anyone knows of anything that won't run on the ZW-L. Given my stuff I currently have is a mix of old PW with open frame motors and mechanical e-units, with some more modern conventional Lionel and MTH conventional, I don't think I will have problems, just curious if it has that problem. 

DWP425. There you have it. The decision is solely up to you. This thread will go on and on supporting both systems. Good luck and most importantly, have fun.

People on this post using the proper fuses are doing it right.    Many do not.  It is a matter of choice.    People choose transformers based on different needs.   You do not need a ZW-L for a 4X8 layout but if you have a good size layout it helps.   I am basically an MTH guy but do have a good collection of Legacy locomotives.   I know several DCS guys that run the Lionel 180 bricks into a TIU.  Great set up.   We live in the best of times ever in the hobby.  Many choices from the big companies.  

I grew up with the Lionel ZW.  If you are using them today, have someone go through them and make sure they are safe.  Remember, they are old.  I like seeing guys state they are using fuses with the ZW they run trains with.

I'm one of the guys that still uses Postwar ZW's.  I use fuses, TVS modules and have Legacy Powermasters in between the transformers and the track.  I've never had an issue.  However, that's likely because I have things robustly protected.  Marty is correct in his assessment that you need to protect the electronics in todays trains.  Easiest way to do that is a newer transformer.  I'm just a weirdo though that has a soft spot for old Lionel transformers...

Charlie, I am glad to see what guys like yourself do.

Marty, good advice, as always.  I had Allan Moore go through my ZW a few years ago, so I'm confident it's safe to use.

Charlie, understand your soft spot for old transformers.  There's something about grabbing the throttle and running the train that you can't duplicate with a handheld remote.  Maybe it makes us feel like kids again, if only for a moment?

John

The ZWL is a fantastic Transformer! Over the years I have used Z, ZW, ZWC & now I have a New ZWL. It will run Conventional, TMCC & Legacy. 

The nice thing is the Power Units & Power Masters are built into the Case!!! All 4  outputs can be controlled by a Cab1 or Cab 2. And all 4 outputs are controlled by "Fast operating circut breakers " to protect all the electronics on the new  Engines!!!

I was faced w/ exactly the same thing-  I have three ZW's,  and they all need the diode changeover, plus I outfitted them w/ external circuit breakers.  They worked OK-  but- I just decided to bite the bullet and bought a ZW-L,  I am delighted with it.  Yes- it is pricey, but  about the same price as 2 Lion Chief locos.  I now have plenty of power, and the safety features of the new transformer, gauges etc.   

I run the lights and 2 small 2 X 4' sections of the layout using ZWs.  

Running modern electronics on old transformers is a risk.  When that ZW was made the power coming into your house was 110-117 volts. Put a meter on yours now and see what it reads. But even with modern transformers, I run a huge , expensive filter ahead of everything and I put in PTCs because the ratings on the circuit breakers even in modern transformers are too generous. Protect your legacy system the way you protect your PC or MAC. After all, it is a computer--just one designed tor a single purpose.

Don

I run mostly conventional, but have recently added DCS. Owning 5 ZWs that have all been fully reconditioned, I resisted going to a modern transformer for a long time. After adding DCS, I added the external fuses and TVS, but in the end, after listening to Marty and a few others, I decided to upgrade to an MTH Z4000. The price of a ZWL was simply more than I wanted to pay for a transformer, so the Z4000 was a good compromise. If you shop around, you can find one brand-new for under $400.00. Seeing how my old trains run with the Z4000, my only regret is not buying one sooner. 

John

good discussion and one more consideration.  I run conventional and a mix of legacy, Ps-2 and Ps-3 locos. I have fuses, transient voltage suppressors and all the good stuff the forum gurus recommend.  I also like smoke and here is the issue 

So...one day  I decided to eliminate my Z-1000s for a Z-4000.  bad idea, the legacy locos quit smoking with a pure sine wave transformer. They like chopped sine wave. I have since sold my 4000 and gone back to the 1000s.  Not sure about the ZWL and the shape of its output wave  but make sure you consider this.

Your statement is not true.  All Legacy locomotives smoke well with a Z4000.  The smoke comes on a bit slower than a chopped sine wave transformer.  I run 70 plus Legacy locomotives and they all smoke very well with the Z4000.  I do Legacy repairs and see several hundred locomotives each year and have never seen one Legacy locomotive that will not smoke with a Z4000.

Many members have watched the video Mike Reagan did on this exact subject.

As an aside how do you guys derail your trains so much? I run a Postwar ZW  with external breakers and TVS diodes. I've tripped a breaker once in the last 5 years, maybe.

I have a lot of experience running trains (67 years out of 70) and I will say the following:

1) More time having fun and less time worrying and correcting issues is very important.

2) Running modern trains with modern electronics is expensive.

3) A ZW-L is expensive, BUT, there is a reason. It is the best transformer available.

4) Why take a chance installing and replacing fuses?

5) I have derailments on a large layout frequently. The ZW-L kicks in immediately and shuts power to that line.

6) LISTEN to Marty Fitzhenry. NO ONE knows more about this.

Scrappy

I use a postwar ZW dedicated to train control and another separately for accessories. There is a toggle switch on my layout which gives me two choices:

1. Pure sine wave power straight to track with additional fuse and TVS diode protection (used mostly for postwar locos with Pullmors that perform better on a sine wave).

2. Flipping the toggle switch the other way, a command base, Legacy 360 Powermaster, TIU, WIU all come online for either conventional, TMCC/Legacy or DCS operation. I have installed  fuses, TVS diodes, and the Powermaster provides fold back current protection. 

I like the  ZW-L, but with my setup above, the only benefit is fancy lights and additional wattage that I don’t really need. Plus, I really don’t like the E-unit chatter and Pullmor grinding that I get from a chopped wave power supply (which is why I have toggle option 1, above)

Marty for sure is one of our forum experts but I must beg to differ on one small point. For my five legacy locos, running conventional typically at 9-12 volts, smoke output was much less on the 4000 compared to the 1000 in my case. Just sayin...

I follow Marty F's advice.  A guy that has repaired that many trains has more experience with these types of failure than most here on the forum. 

Those using the other methods of protection are at least thinking about it.  Using Legacy Powermasters is definitely another good option.  Bottom line, using a PW transformer without any type of protection beyond the PW circuit breakers is taking a chance of an engine being damaged.  I think that is a point we can take from this.  Whether it's incorporated into a modern transformer or added to an existing PW, modern and quick acting protection against shorts and spikes is worth the extra work and $$$.

A repair on a damaged locomotive could cost you the same amount or more than some basic steps to prevent the damaged.

Wow!  Lots of great information (and opinions) since I originally posed the question.

For my situation, my TPC300 and Legacy Powermaster seem to do a great job on my two loops, and I don't really need any extra power.  So ... purchasing a ZW-L would primarily be for circuit protection purposes.  If I do the math, I'd have to "fry" two Legacy diesels before I came out ahead based on the price of a ZW-L (I haven't fried any yet).  Since I do use in-line 10-amp fast blow fuses on track supply wiring, and have the TVS's bridging the A-U and D-U terminals on the ZW, how much value does the additional protection of a ZW-L provide?  What are the odds?

dwp425 posted:

Wow!  Lots of great information (and opinions) since I originally posed the question.

For my situation, my TPC300 and Legacy Powermaster seem to do a great job on my two loops, and I don't really need any extra power.  So ... purchasing a ZW-L would primarily be for circuit protection purposes.  If I do the math, I'd have to "fry" two Legacy diesels before I came out ahead based on the price of a ZW-L (I haven't fried any yet).  Since I do use in-line 10-amp fast blow fuses on track supply wiring, and have the TVS's bridging the A-U and D-U terminals on the ZW, how much value does the additional protection of a ZW-L provide?  What are the odds?

You already have protection using the TPC and Legacy Powermaster.

This conversation has got me to thinking it's time to replace my ZW with a ZW-L.  I might be able to buy one at a good price from a friend that acquired it as part of a collection.  Will postwar trains run well with the ZW-L?  I run mostly modern power, but I still run my postwar locos frequently.

John

If you are running through Legacy and/or DCS, then the features on the ZW-L are more icing than actual cake and aren't going to add any real benefit.  If running conventional I can see a benefit of the ZW-L although I still think it's way overpriced for an adjustable voltage power supply.  It is pretty to look at, but for me even the ZW stays hidden as I keep my control equipment out of the way to allow room for other things.

There's a lot of ways to slice an apple in this hobby so as long as your equipment is protected and does what you want, there is no need to "upgrade" if it's serving you well.

I asked many years back in the DCS forums this same type question and the best feedback I received were the two following:

1. What is it the ZW is not doing for me now that another transformer would do?

2. Protect yourself with fast blow fuses or fast trip inline breakers.

Honestly, if running DCS or Legacy and looking at new power supplies, I would take Gunrunner John's advice and go with the PH180 from Lionel.  Fast trip breakers built in and plenty of power @ 180 watts.  Plus GRJ knows a thing or three about electronics.

Some guys like to drive a Ford and some like to drive a Chevrolet.     Your choice of transformers is yours. If you do not need high power, the ZW with proper fuse protection will work.  I end up seeing the trains that were run without proper protection.    As stated before, we have many options available to us today.   BTW,  I am a huge fan of the 180 bricks.

Another vote for the Lionel 180w bricks.

You can already run conventionally via your remote through the tpc and power master so having a transformer for regulating conventional voltage is redundant.

The 180w powerhouse has the fastest breaker in the hobby, and will protect your trains as good or better than anything else.

I've read posts on here from Folks saying they had a derailment and the engine was smoking  before they got to it.

That doesn't happen with the 180w bricks.

dwp425 posted:

Wow!  Lots of great information (and opinions) since I originally posed the question.

For my situation, my TPC300 and Legacy Powermaster seem to do a great job on my two loops, and I don't really need any extra power.  So ... purchasing a ZW-L would primarily be for circuit protection purposes.  If I do the math, I'd have to "fry" two Legacy diesels before I came out ahead based on the price of a ZW-L (I haven't fried any yet).  Since I do use in-line 10-amp fast blow fuses on track supply wiring, and have the TVS's bridging the A-U and D-U terminals on the ZW, how much value does the additional protection of a ZW-L provide?  What are the odds?

You have everything covered and protected just fine.

OK folks, since I got into the hobby in 2014, I have seen pictures of 180w bricks together with a CW80.   So how do you attach one to a track or how do you control the voltage to the track?

RickO posted:

Another vote for the Lionel 180w bricks.

You can already run conventionally via your remote through the tpc and power master so having a transformer for regulating conventional voltage is redundant.

The 180w powerhouse has the fastest breaker in the hobby, and will protect your trains as good or better than anything else.

I've read posts on here from Folks saying they had a derailment and the engine was smoking  before they got to it.

That doesn't happen with the 180w bricks.

RockO has a very good point! You can purchase 2 of the 180W bricks for a couple Hundred Bucks!!  Just saying!

Fred

RickM46 posted:

OK folks, since I got into the hobby in 2014, I have seen pictures of 180w bricks together with a CW80.   So how do you attach one to a track or how do you control the voltage to the track?

You may be thinking of the GW180 : http://www.lionel.com/products...transformer-6-37947/ 

This is the same concept as Lionels ZW c powered by external 180w bricks, just less power.

If your talking solely the 180w brick you can connect it to a TPC unit or the new Legacy powermaster which enables you to vary the voltage from the Legacy remote.

Otherwise, if your only running command you can connect it directly to the track as they are designed to put out a constant 18v.

Thanks RickO, I think I get it; the brick is like a huge wall wart that is used on the Lionechief sets but a bunch more wattage and 18v and can also be tied to the GW80 or TPC or Powermaster that allows control from the Remote if you want to control the voltage.

Correct!

The old ZW and the ZW-L each have handles to mainly adjust train speed. We don't need those handles anymore with the handhelds. 

It would seem that a combination of 180w bricks is all that we need now.