So says on the trains news wire today. New policy takes hold Dec 31. This is going to cause such a political !@#$ storm.
Some of the trains effected:
Vermonter on New England central
Downeaster on Pan Am north of Haverville, Ma
Ethan Allen in Vermont
Southwest Chief
Texas Eagle,
Just to name a few. Some of these routes are Exempt from PTC rules granted by the FRA. So does Amtrak run trains anymore? Just the Northeast corridor I guess.
Replies sorted oldest to newest
PTC is post traumatic cars?
Here is a link to the story:
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...n-routes-without-ptc
I think it is worth noting that Amtrak threatened to end service in Vermont earlier this year, and backed off a short time later
https://vermontbiz.com/news/20...on-threat-apologizes
Is he looking to get someone else to pay for it? Like the Federal government instead of the State, local, and Amtrak?
SWC AND the Cardinal........kills ALL my train riding if it happens. Before coming here I wrote every politician I could name. If it happens and I will not fly.....no more trips coast to coast for me. sad......
CZ was on the list too.......no LD west coast trains to CA......
From Associated Press: Feb. 15, 2018
FILE - In a Feb. 20, 2014 file photo, Metrolink Director of Operations, R.T. McCarthy, demonstrates Metrolink's implementation of Positive Train Control, (PTC) at the Metrolink Locomotive and Cab Car Simulators training facility in Los Angeles' Union Station. Amtrak is considering suspending service on tracks that don't have sophisticated speed controls by a Dec. 31, 2018 deadline, Amtrak president and CEO Richard Anderson said Feb. 15, 2018, threatening to disrupt operations across the U.S. as it pushes to strengthen safety after a series of deadly wrecks. (AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes, File) THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
I hope they can get these issues solved, not a big fan on riding an Amtrak Bus for part of my travels.
Gary: Rail-fan
A note I got from email: “The policy means the Amtrak Board would insist the following trains on FRA-exempted routes be discontinued:
Gardner’s message prefaced the meeting in Raton last week hosted by Colfax County, N.M., for more than 40 officials whose cities and states have already invested millions of dollars in matching funds to three approved federal grants designed to shore up the Southwest Chief’s route.”
Source unknown
Congress has a mandate that they must operate. We shall see what happens
So happy this new CEO is all about safety.
/sarcasm off
Odd. I thought a CASCADES train derailed on the first day of service because the train went too fast on a new line where the PTC was not on. Odd.
It may not be of any help....but my senators offices called me this morning. Neither had heard anything about this. I gave them all the info and informed them of the article. It my do nothing...but I did something.
AMCDave posted:It may not be of any help....but my senators offices called me this morning. Neither had heard anything about this. I gave them all the info and informed them of the article. It my do nothing...but I did something.
Latest word is, Amtrak has released a statement refuting that Trains article.
Hot Water posted:AMCDave posted:It may not be of any help....but my senators offices called me this morning. Neither had heard anything about this. I gave them all the info and informed them of the article. It my do nothing...but I did something.
Latest word is, Amtrak has released a statement refuting that Trains article.
I hope that is true. Not to start a argument......but there is 'fake news' on one side or the other. Was that said at the meeting or not???
We'll see.....thx
Amtrak and Washington state transportation officials anticipate a positive train control (PTC) system will be installed on the Amtrak Cascades corridor — including the Point Defiance Bypass — prior to the federal Dec. 31 deadline.
PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington, National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials have said. Amtrak expects to return rail service to the bypass between Tacoma, Lakewood, Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM) and DuPont in spring 2019, Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) officials reported on the department's website.
The schedule allows time for crews to monitor how PTC is working on the current Amtrak Cascades route before passenger-rail service returns to the bypass, WSDOT officials said.
"Amtrak, Sound Transit and BNSF [Railway Co.] are all working together to ensure PTC is operating seamlessly in the entire Pacific Northwest andthey are confident they will meet the Dec. 31, 2018, federal deadline for implementation in our region," they wrote.
The schedule also allows time for the National Transportation Safety Board to complete its investigation and issue recommendations related to the derailment in DuPont, WSDOT officials said.
On Dec. 18, 2017, an Amtrak Cascades train derailed on a highway overpass in DuPont. Three passengers were killed and dozens of passengers and the crew members were injured. Eight people in highway vehicles below the overpass also were injured. The accident occurred on the first day of a new passenger-rail service along the bypass.
Gary: Rail-fan
PTC is not going to be the the cure all, beat all to preventing collisions or what have you. Billions being spent and !@#$ will still happen.
AMCDave posted:Hot Water posted:AMCDave posted:It may not be of any help....but my senators offices called me this morning. Neither had heard anything about this. I gave them all the info and informed them of the article. It my do nothing...but I did something.
Latest word is, Amtrak has released a statement refuting that Trains article.
I hope that is true. Not to start a argument......but there is 'fake news' on one side or the other. Was that said at the meeting or not???
We'll see.....thx
Boy if true, another thing Trains has gotten wrong. Not good.
Hot Water posted:Latest word is, Amtrak has released a statement refuting that Trains article.
This is on the Amtrak media center page. It is not dated, that I can see:
PTC Statement from Richard Anderson, President & Chief Executive Officer
To be clear, Amtrak has not made any decisions to cease train operations across our network or on any specific routes at this time. Instead, we are going to thoroughly analyze each route on a case-by-case basis and consider the appropriate strategies for enhancing safety on such routes after the December 2018 deadline. In particular, as we assess these routes, we know that some of them are shared with our commuter partners who face their own challenges to reach the deadline. We will assist our commuter partners, where we can, to reach the deadline or to find viable alternatives to bridge the gap. It would not be prudent to force more commuters onto our highways in already congested urban regions; rail remains the best and safer solution.
While we work to meet this deadline, I think it’s also important to acknowledge the role that Federal funds have and will play in the implementation of these systems for passenger and commuter rail. Amtrak has certainly been the recipient of some of these funds and acknowledge their critical role in allowing us to meet our deadlines. We are also aware of the additional funding likely needed by our commuter partners to help fully implement PTC as quickly as possible. In addition, there will be an ongoing maintenance cost associated with PTC systems, which for some may be a financial hardship in future years and could require further Federal investment. We appreciate and acknowledge the important role federal funding has in improving rail safety.
superwarp1 posted:PTC is not going to be the the cure all, beat all to preventing collisions or what have you. Billions being spent and !@#$ will still happen.
Shhhh! 
Be wery, wery qwiet! We're hunting dawwers!
Maaaybe considered riding a steam excursion from Amtrak before, but now those are out, and so is passenger service in much of the US except the Northeast Corridor. Pretty sure no one likes Amtrak anymore because of the new CEO.
Still love Amtrak.....may not like those in control....but the crews are still good folks.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Odd. I thought a CASCADES train derailed on the first day of service because the train went too fast on a new line where the PTC was not on. Odd.
Among many other reasons, the lack of PTC did play a role in that incident. The new route away from Point Defiance (avoiding the bottleneck of the single-track Nelson Bennett tunnel) ran the train along I-5 from Tacoma to Nisqually. It derailed at a very tight left-hand cure at Dupont, WA (I went under that bridge in the opposite direction about 3 minutes before the crash, I was asleep in the van on the way to work otherwise I might have seen the train approaching through the yard just north of there). I know the engineer and two gentlemen who were all badly hurt in the accident.
PTC, I've been told, is in place but I haven't seen even a test train come through the area since the incident. They were supposed to have been running again before now.
palallin posted:superwarp1 posted:PTC is not going to be the the cure all, beat all to preventing collisions or what have you. Billions being spent and !@#$ will still happen.
Shhhh!
.....and wabbits?
AMCDave posted:Still love Amtrak.....may not like those in control....but the crews are still good folks.
totally understand, I really don't like Rich Anderson. And Amtrak isn't really exciting anymore for me. No more steam excursions, no more private cars, and the loss of all those trains. It's like the CEO is trying to make Amtrak a commuter line.
The non-1309 trip. Now this. Is TRAINS using raw eggs for makeup?
trainroomgary posted:...PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington...
No, what would have prevented this accident would have been a properly trained and QUALIFIED crew and company officers running the train. The railroad industry has been dumbing down the work force for decades. You get what you pay for.
Those of you who think PTC is going to prevent all railroad accidents are going to be severely disappointed.
I'm with you Rich. We already have the technology to stall engines if signals are ignored. The decision on what and where to place signals are firmly placed with management. The two biggest, recent Amtrak accidents could have been prevented with fixed approach signals. PTC is not a cure-all, but make good press and helps politicians look like they are doing something.
OGR Webmaster posted:trainroomgary posted:...PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington...No, what would have prevented this accident would have been a properly trained and QUALIFIED crew and company officers running the train. The railroad industry has been dumbing down the work force for decades. You get what you pay for.
Those of you who think PTC is going to prevent all railroad accidents are going to be severely disappointed.
I beg to differ with you. Not only railroading, but industrial and transportation industries as a whole have been "dumbing down" the workforce ever since the advent of the computer. People make mistakes. Computers do not, unless they malfunction, or are given improper instructions (at this time, absent artificial intelligence, they are the world's fastest idiot). As one of my work colleagues, who used to work on technical work instructions for air force personnel used to say, the current push is to reduce the workforce to the point where the work is basically "read a task, do a task, get a banana".
PTC is going to reduce accidents, not eliminate them. One can argue that the technology and it's huge expense may not be worth it, but try telling that to the family members of those who perished in the Dupont WA accident. I for one support the deployment of PTC, but realize that the implementation is going to be anything but seamless and without issues. It is a HUGE effort to bring this system on line, and make it reliable.
Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.
What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Regards,
GNNPNUT
AMCDave posted:SWC AND the Cardinal........kills ALL my train riding if it happens. Before coming here I wrote every politician I could name. If it happens and I will not fly.....no more trips coast to coast for me. sad......
CZ was on the list too.......no LD west coast trains to CA......
The Cardinal already runs on PTC trackage on the CSX.
gnnpnut posted:OGR Webmaster posted:trainroomgary posted:...PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington...No, what would have prevented this accident would have been a properly trained and QUALIFIED crew and company officers running the train. The railroad industry has been dumbing down the work force for decades. You get what you pay for.
Those of you who think PTC is going to prevent all railroad accidents are going to be severely disappointed.
I beg to differ with you. Not only railroading, but industrial and transportation industries as a whole have been "dumbing down" the workforce ever since the advent of the computer. People make mistakes. Computers do not, unless they malfunction, or are given improper instructions (at this time, absent artificial intelligence, they are the world's fastest idiot). As one of my work colleagues, who used to work on technical work instructions for air force personnel used to say, the current push is to reduce the workforce to the point where the work is basically "read a task, do a task, get a banana".
PTC is going to reduce accidents, not eliminate them. One can argue that the technology and it's huge expense may not be worth it, but try telling that to the family members of those who perished in the Dupont WA accident. I for one support the deployment of PTC, but realize that the implementation is going to be anything but seamless and without issues. It is a HUGE effort to bring this system on line, and make it reliable.
Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.
What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Regards,GNNPNUT
Computers do make mistakes.
Have seen it first hand ,first with simply signaling, then with Auto Router now with PTC.
Nothing built by man is mistake free,or error free .Yes man made,man programmed ,but computer malfunction on their own. Look at autopilot on airliners. They have been blamed for crashes before.
I've operated PTC ,and when working the way it should, it is a helpful tool in running a train,and yes in a safer way.Faster no way.
It does mess up,and whether it be design flaw or software issues,or simply the signal is not being picked up right,it isn't fail proof and I fill the railroads were rushed into this .
It's been expensive and time consuming to iron out.
But its here,and has to be figured out by the railroads and the transportation employees.
Its main reason for being implemented is to prevent train collisions between trains and overspeeds.
gnnpnut posted:Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Apples and oranges IMO.
You can hardly compare the amount of training a locomotive engineer has to the amount of training an airline pilot has. Also, airline pilots have extensive ongoing training and are evaluated every six months. Pilot physical health is also frequently evaluated, a Class 1 medical certificate is renewed every year, and for pilots over 40, every six months. This isn't your run of the mill physical either.
Then we come to the equipment. I spent many years designing avionics products for commercial and military aircraft, and the difference between the reliability of what we built and what is used for train control has to be a pretty wide difference. The most critical flight systems have to have a computed reliability of (10)-9, that's one failure in 1,000,000,000 hours.
OTOH, I agree that PTC is probably a very good idea, but we can't count on it to solve all the problems, we still have to have competent train engineers that are paying attention. The latest generation of airliners are capable of fully automated flight from takeoff to touchdown, however it's still rarely used in real life. Very few landings are auto land controlled, and to my knowledge, takeoffs are still all manual. The airline pilot (and the train engineer) are still a vital part of the control picture for modern transportation systems.
And computers can be hacked. Or programmed wrong. Example: HAL 9000.
Radio signals can be jammed or hacked.
Dominic Mazoch posted:And computers can be hacked. Or programmed wrong. Example: HAL 9000.
I'm not sure a Hollywood fantasy is a good example. 
Since l frequently cross a RR crossing, with two lines, one a surviving megamerger, the other only ballast, rails pulled of a fallen flag, it has dawned on me that Amtrak should OWN its right of way, and maybe could have, from the salvaged remains of all the vanished roads' ROW's. That might have cost little then??, but probably is not maintenance cost feasible now. It would be the only good, unaffordable, answer. I wonder how late in the merger frenzy period there would have still been track, now pulled, that could have been connected coast to coast?
gunrunnerjohn posted:gnnpnut posted:Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Apples and oranges IMO.
You can hardly compare the amount of training a locomotive engineer has to the amount of training an airline pilot has. Also, airline pilots have extensive ongoing training and are evaluated every six months. Pilot physical health is also frequently evaluated, a Class 1 medical certificate is renewed every year, and for pilots over 40, every six months. This isn't your run of the mill physical either.
Then we come to the equipment. I spent many years designing avionics products for commercial and military aircraft, and the difference between the reliability of what we built and what is used for train control has to be a pretty wide difference. The most critical flight systems have to have a computed reliability of (10)-9, that's one failure in 1,000,000,000 hours.
OTOH, I agree that PTC is probably a very good idea, but we can't count on it to solve all the problems, we still have to have competent train engineers that are paying attention. The latest generation of airliners are capable of fully automated flight from takeoff to touchdown, however it's still rarely used in real life. Very few landings are auto land controlled, and to my knowledge, takeoffs are still all manual. The airline pilot (and the train engineer) are still a vital part of the control picture for modern transportation systems.
The day IS coming when a locomotive engineer in the traditional sense will disappear. We have reduced locomotive operating crews from five people to 2 (and in a LOT of operations worldwide, 1) in my lifetime. Two heavy haul railroads, Rio Tinto and BHP are well along on their driverless train programs. Rio Tinto has already had a successful trial of their installation. BHP is not far behind. Driverless mining trucks are already in regular operation.
Read again what I stated. "PTC is going to reduce accidents, not eliminate them. One can argue that the technology and it's huge expense may not be worth it, but try telling that to the family members of those who perished in the Dupont WA accident. I for one support the deployment of PTC, but realize that the implementation is going to be anything but seamless and without issues. It is a HUGE effort to bring this system on line, and make it reliable."
Your comparison of airline pilots vs locomotive engineer training is just as much apples and oranges. Railroads do not invest the level of training for a locomotive engineer, nor spend to the levels of the airline industry on software, equipment and training for one simple reason. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO. The airline industry defies the effects of gravity for a living. Mission failure in that instance is usually catastrophic. Railroads in a general sense don't have that same issue. PTC DOES institute a level of safety into the equation that WILL reduce fatal and costly accidents. It isn't there to improve productivity AT THIS TIME. But once the bugs are worked out, how long do you think it is going to take the railroads to petition for single man crews? And in installations that are heavy haul, and for the most part, captive, how long do you think it will be before thisvideo becomes the rule, and not the exception?
https://www.smartrailworld.com...rain-safety-approval
GNNPNUT
You're way over simplifying things GPPPNUT. From my understanding the BHP automation is very limited to unpopulated areas of Australia only. Even then it is accepted like with Wind Turbines that animal casualties and some other things will not be avoided. Wildlife populations are a major factor in Australia to their transportation industry.
Computers are only as good as their programmers and then only as good as they understand their environments as much as they can be controlled. AI will have some effect on advancement but still has a difficult time accounting for the randomness in the world.
TexasSP posted:You're way over simplifying things GPPPNUT. From my understanding the BHP automation is very limited to unpopulated areas of Australia only. Even then it is accepted like with Wind Turbines that animal casualties and some other things will not be avoided. Wildlife populations are a major factor in Australia to their transportation industry.
Computers are only as good as their programmers and then only as good as they understand their environments as much as they can be controlled. AI will have some effect on advancement but still has a difficult time accounting for the randomness in the world.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/201...rless-trains/9562722
And a huge step towards single man crews, here today:
http://www.nyab.com/en/products/leader/leader_1.jsp
And lets not forget how Integrated Distributed Power as allowed North American railroads to already combine two trains into one. Experienced a Hunter Harrison inspired mega-train running on CP or CN lately?
Oversimplifying? I think not. The technology is here today in remote areas, it has already spread into transit, and it WILL eventually make its way into mainline freight operations here in North America. Maybe not in my lifetime, but definitely in my children's.
Change is inevitable.
GNNPNUT
gnnpnut posted:OGR Webmaster posted:trainroomgary posted:...PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington...No, what would have prevented this accident would have been a properly trained and QUALIFIED crew and company officers running the train. The railroad industry has been dumbing down the work force for decades. You get what you pay for.
Those of you who think PTC is going to prevent all railroad accidents are going to be severely disappointed.
I beg to differ with you. Not only railroading, but industrial and transportation industries as a whole have been "dumbing down" the workforce ever since the advent of the computer. People make mistakes. Computers do not, unless they malfunction, or are given improper instructions (at this time, absent artificial intelligence, they are the world's fastest idiot). As one of my work colleagues, who used to work on technical work instructions for air force personnel used to say, the current push is to reduce the workforce to the point where the work is basically "read a task, do a task, get a banana".
PTC is going to reduce accidents, not eliminate them. One can argue that the technology and it's huge expense may not be worth it, but try telling that to the family members of those who perished in the Dupont WA accident. I for one support the deployment of PTC, but realize that the implementation is going to be anything but seamless and without issues. It is a HUGE effort to bring this system on line, and make it reliable.
Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.
What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Regards,GNNPNUT
As a former airline pilot, I personally witnessed the autopilot make several major mistakes, including holding pattern entry errors, and, more alarmingly, a coupled Instrument Landing System approach to autoland lateral steering error. The navigation equipment was all functioning correctly. On a different aircraft, the autothrottle system suddenly retarded the throttles to idle for no reason during cruise flight over the Pacific at Mach 0.82. All required immediate crew intervention. The malfunctions could not be duplicated. Automation must be used with caution.
IC EC posted:gnnpnut posted:OGR Webmaster posted:trainroomgary posted:...PTC likely would have prevented the fatal accident that occurred last Dec. 18 on the bypass track in DuPont, Washington...No, what would have prevented this accident would have been a properly trained and QUALIFIED crew and company officers running the train. The railroad industry has been dumbing down the work force for decades. You get what you pay for.
Those of you who think PTC is going to prevent all railroad accidents are going to be severely disappointed.
I beg to differ with you. Not only railroading, but industrial and transportation industries as a whole have been "dumbing down" the workforce ever since the advent of the computer. People make mistakes. Computers do not, unless they malfunction, or are given improper instructions (at this time, absent artificial intelligence, they are the world's fastest idiot). As one of my work colleagues, who used to work on technical work instructions for air force personnel used to say, the current push is to reduce the workforce to the point where the work is basically "read a task, do a task, get a banana".
PTC is going to reduce accidents, not eliminate them. One can argue that the technology and it's huge expense may not be worth it, but try telling that to the family members of those who perished in the Dupont WA accident. I for one support the deployment of PTC, but realize that the implementation is going to be anything but seamless and without issues. It is a HUGE effort to bring this system on line, and make it reliable.
Lets look at a transportation industry that heavily embraces computer technology, the airline industry. The airline industry has an envious safety record in terms of passenger miles per fatality. It is the safest mode of transportation out there.
What have we got to lose by embracing PTC, and working towards a successful implementation?
Regards,GNNPNUT
As a former airline pilot, I personally witnessed the autopilot make several major mistakes, including holding pattern entry errors, and, more alarmingly, a coupled Instrument Landing System approach to autoland lateral steering error. The navigation equipment was all functioning correctly. On a different aircraft, the autothrottle system suddenly retarded the throttles to idle for no reason during cruise flight over the Pacific at Mach 0.82. All required immediate crew intervention. The malfunctions could not be duplicated. Automation must be used with caution.
Amen.
Already have heard complaints about Trip Opptomizer running to fast and the crew has had to intervene to slow down.
Technology is great,in certain fields of industry.
But hey,the wheel is still round,the plane still flys with wings,and the trains will still run with people.
Might be people behind a computer screen, but not without human interaction. Just dont ever see it.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:And computers can be hacked. Or programmed wrong. Example: HAL 9000.
I'm not sure a Hollywood fantasy is a good example.
Actually it HAS happened, in space. NASA sent an expensive spacecraft to Mars, and it crashed because they switched standard vs metric units. Accident?
superwarp1 posted:PTC is not going to be the the cure all, beat all to preventing collisions or what have you. Billions being spent and !@#$ will still happen.
Every time there is a railroad incident the mediots go to their favorite new buzzword, PTC, and speculate breathlessly on whether it would have prevented the incident. In most cases it would not. Still they tout it as a cure for everything from head-on-collisions to E.D., because mediots have the mindset that government intervention is always what's needed to save humans from themselves.
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