An answer on the new J smoke features.

Just what you said Marty plus the price according to Lionel was adjusted to account for the lack of those features. They did say that there has been allot of blow back for the lack of some of the features but then again the price would have increased 2-$300. 

I got the same response from Lionel.

Doug

I didn't ask but I was certain that was the answer.  The J is a pretty big loco, and the GS-2 (also without it) is too, so it is not a lack of space that made Lionel leave it out of both. 

 

So it was a business decision . . .  and it makes sense to me (i.e., putting on my business hat, I would have made the same decision) for three reasons:

- Market image: At an additional $200 - $300 for the steam effect, you're pushing Legacy locos up into the $1,600 range.  The market is probably several years away from being ready to accept that price level concept for Legacy locos, and whistle steam alone will not make the J or the GS into "Vision" locos.

- Competition: a perfect head to head example is: a $1,600 GS-2 or 6 with whistle steam would be competing with MTH's GS-at $1,100.  Personally, I think the steam effect and the better sound I hear out of all recent Lionel locos, are worth the difference, but with my businessman's hat on, I realize a good portion of the market would disagree with me. 

- Risk: new tooling would add time and risk of schedule slippage to already shaky delivery schedules Lionel is trying to manage well to demonstrate to the market that its shipping schedule can be depended upon. 

 

 

All the more reason Lionel should have kept these features exclusive to vision line offerings. Whoever is in charge of product production/marketing/development over there should be fired. After giving the consumer a "false sense"that these features would become stanadard equipment, even at reasonable prices i.e. the MR s3 and the PRRk4. You "take them away" and still increase the MSRPfrom the previous release.The added bonus being "why would someone pay premuim vision line prices when they can get some of those features for less in the legacy line"?

 

The whistle steam feature is definately my favorite, though not a deal breaker for me as Lionel "gets me" with the best sound.The downside is that this whistle steam is another smoke unit that will need some type of repair or maintenance at some point.

 

Having stated my opinions of the matter on both sides of the arguement, I will now step back and let others express their outrage by how they think this is a "load of B.S." from Lionel and they see no reason to buy another product with the same old features.

 

Thanks for the update Marty.

>>>Seems it has come down to the cost of re-working the tooling to make it all fit, mount, and work.<<

 

Exactly! Pretty much my thoughts last month with the Berk as well. 

Just picked up the SF Northern with Whistle Steam effect yesterday.

What a beautiful engine.  Whistle Steam adds greatly to the visual effect. 

As someone posted yesterday, don't think I'll buy another big steam without it.

Joe

Whoever is in charge of product production/marketing/development over there should be fired. After giving the consumer a "false sense"that these features would become stanadard equipment, even at reasonable prices i.e. the MR s3 and the PRRk4. You "take them away" and still increase the MSRPfrom the previous release.The added bonus being "why would someone pay premuim vision line prices when they can get some of those features for less in the legacy line"?

 

I completely agree with RickO. Lionel's development/marketing/production process is flawed and creates uncertainty and sometimes provides misinformation to consumers.  I do not understand how they can advertise products in a catalog that may or may not have certain features which, depending on pre-orders, may or may not be produced.  It makes no sense.

 

With respect to the lack of steam whistle on the GS, J, and Mohawk being attributed to cost, how then were they able to bring the S-3 to market under a $1K and the UP 4-12-2 with Legacy and whistle steam for $100 less than it original TMCC version's MSRP?

 

Whatever success Lionel enjoys, it is not attributable to their ability to market their products.  If that side of their business was managed/guided like their service department they would crush their competitors and create an even more loyal fan base. 

 

Lionel has a Vision Line, but from my point of view the company lacks a vision of the evolution of its product line.  There is no continuity in the pricing structure or the features the engines possess in the pricing tiers.  Why did blow down effect debut on engines in the Legacy tier of engines and not in the Vision Line?  Why did whistle steam make its way into the little Polar Express set (entry tier)?  Will "premium" Vision Line features continue to trickle down to the Legacy tier of products or will they remain in the premium tier.  To provide them and then "take them away" only creates a perception of a lack of value and dissuades me from purchasing them.

 Heads its $1200 with no added effects,tails.... added effects for $999

Like a lot said why did the s3 em1 etc have these affects them.  Lets be honest they got lazy on this. What is 100 or so called 200 bucks at this point. I bet it came down to the deadline they wanted to get them out. It wouldn't bother me to much but we all know in about 2 years they will make it in vision line and you just spent 1000 for yours.

My thoughts are I rather have the engines at the price point or a little lower then they are now And for go the increased costs of the whistle steam, swinging bell, etc. The most important thing for me is the legacy operating system and the superior sounds. Not everybody can afford the $1600+ vision or non vision line engines. As long as the engines I want are in the $1000-1200 range I'm in but no more. Lionel knew that bringing out another $1600+ locomotives in this economy was suicide. Better to build to a price point that have a better chance of selling then higher. 

We bought our K4 here on the Forum for $500 and it has 'whistle steam'....

I mostly disagree. No company is perfect, but I see a very rational and rather focused strategy behind what Lionel seems to be doing, if one that really is not focused on all the issues discussed here.  In its setting aside Lionmaster, focusing on scale Legacy, doing revisions to conventional running capability in both Legacy and otherwise, and in offering conventional only and the remote Thomi, etc., I think they have a plan (and I like it).  Their focus though, seems to be as much on those product line content issues but more on shipping schedules, customer response, and quality (I'm not claiming they are winning the war on foreign-made qulaity issues, but I'm saying it's central to their thoughts). 

 

I like what they're doing, alot.  As to Vision: Vision is to Lionel what Corvette is to GM.  It builds image and people talk about it alot - mostly always talking about features but mostly complaining about its flaws; but it's not really critical to the company's business success.  (And yes, I've bought a lot of both anyway).

>>>I like what they're doing, alot<<

 

I like their plan too. 

Lets see now... Small featureless $550.00 conventional steamers should be a winner.. Dealers will stock up...  And those high end models delivered without heavily advertised new features should be a crowd favorite...

Marketing should be in line for a year end bonus..

Joe

   

I am just the opposite... I would prefer to pay a few hundred more for whistle steam, and definitely the moving bell... really blows the engines into an entirely new realm of realism.

Did anyone ask about the tender and pilot truck wheel differences in the catalog photos?

Anyone interested in buying a Milwaukee Road S3 without steam chest and whistle smoke features? Cab #267. I'm thinking about buying the 611 and transferring all of the guts from the S3 to the J and vise versa. If the J has sequencing and blow down on start up then this might be a good swap. Once Chuck gets his 612, I'll have to see before starting my project. Any thoughts?

I doubt that will work. Remember these are not your generic Lionel Traditional line of locomotives.

I heard a lot more this year than I ever heard before about tooling costs vs. sales. Both Lionel and MTH said  they had features or new products the wanted to add/market but the tooling costs could not be supported by current sales.

 

We are not out of the woods  yet

Among other problems with that, I don't think the S-3 has the smoking whistle.

Can't help you there but hear this Lionel...

 

Based on the lack of the smoke feature that we have come to expect on your higher end steamers such as whistle or steam chest smoke, I am passing on this engine.  I know that your folks spent a good deal of time explaining why it lacks it to many a person.  While I understand this, and you certainly owe me nothing, I just cannot over look this important missing element.

 

But you'll be happy to know that I will most likely purchase the Santa Fe 3751 Northern that does have the features I want.

 

I am sorry that the J couldn't be all it could be.

The MTH Gauge ONE Triplex had whistle steam if I remember correctly. Did it also have a swinging bell?

Vision Line ??? What vision line? There has not been an item branded with the term vision line in either of the two 2012 catalogs.     I think the vision line is behind Lionel now.

Vision Line ??? What vision line? There has not been an item branded with the term vision line in either of the two 2012 catalogs.     I think the vision line is behind Lionel now.

With Lionels prices on conv stuff going up, I have a vision:  WBB!

I have one word to say regarding the Mohawk, J and GS-class locomotives from Lionel.  BLOWOUT.  

 

OK... Maybe three more words... Price Adjustment Looming.

 

Lionel sales folks are doing what any good salesperson should do.  Spin a story to sell what they've got to sell. And smart buyers should do their homework... let these locomotives sit on dealer shelves (or in the warehouse) for awhile.  And the rest is history.  Economics 101 at its best.

 

David

 

P.S. At what price point would you reach for your wallet if the locomotives are produced with the features as catalog'd?  Be honest... You know there's a price at which you'll buy these.  

David

 

That is the conclusion I came to as well. And yes there is a price I would pay for a smokeless whistle J unfortunately it's not the current one.

I doubt it.

 

In my humble doubting opinion.

I would buy a smokeless GS-6 that had an MSRP of  1199.99 (The cost of the TMCC Versions) with a street price of $975-1000.  I spent $1135 on the UP 4-12-2, that was a fair price for a Legacy Updated engine with a smoke feature.  Keep in mind the MSRP for that engine was actually 100 bucks less than its TMCC predecessor.  I will not spend that much ($1100) on an engine without a smoke feature.  That is just my opinion.

 

I am in no hurry, I am sure I will buy one for that price some day, maybe a used one.  I just paid $1000 for a used Legacy GS-4.  It is a beautiful engine, with engine specific crew talk, great detail and sounds...certainly worth $1000.00 to me.

 

To address another point.....I hope the Vision Line is not history. That would be a real step backwards.  I can't believe Lionel would let that line die.  Time will tell.

>>>P.S. At what price point would you reach for your wallet if the locomotives are produced with the features as catalog'd?  Be honest... You know there's a price at which you'll buy these.  <<<

 

Folks need to be reminded this is the third release of the J. The secondary collector market that previously kept values high has become saturated with used models of every discription. IMO, This expensive model produced without Lionels newest features is destined for severe depreciation.

For me since I already have the previous Lionel #611,  the question becomes why would I want it at any price??

Joe

 

In your case, perhaps you wouldn't, unless of course you'd like to double-head your #611 with the new #612.  

 

David

>>>In your case, perhaps you wouldn't, unless of course you'd like to double-head your #611 with the new #612.  

 David>>>

 

Let's not forget TMCC and Legacy motive power do not doublehead very well if at all..

Besides, I can't recall if the previous J or if this reissue has the front coupler option..

Don't think either do.

Talk about a beautiful thing, I doublehead two S-3's,  #261 & #265. 

When  they're rolling, its sight and sound to behold.

Joe 

 

The previous Js have an option to add an O gauge coupler.

I've heard mixed messages about this, and I think it largely depends on which locomotives you're trying to double-head.  Definitely worth a cautionary note... But I'd think two J's running as TMCC engines in a Legacy environment might be OK.  

 

David

Not so much if a model with the additional features doesn't exist.

 

What's depreciated now is your model, which doesn't have Legacy.

 

It's the price we all pay for progress. As has been said many times, run your engines and enjoy them. Like almost everything else, something better will come along someday.

 

(BTW, anyone want a good deal on an iPhone 4?)

Not so much if a model with the additional features doesn't exist.

What's depreciated now is your model, which doesn't have Legacy.<<

 

Have to wonder if a big part of their decision to leave out these new features was to hold something everyone wants for the next issue and get you to buy it twice...    

it could be a return of an old trick used by a famous Lionel employee in the past.

Joe

Anyone care to enlighten us on what 'trick by a famous Lionel employee' this refers to? I'm curious!

 

Seems amazing to me that RS5 still only had two chuffs and not until Legacy could a correct chuff rate be had. Hasn't PS2 had 4,6,8 or more available since 2000?  Why did it take Lionel so long to catch up?

There are a few RS 5 locos that have four chuffs the last mohawk from 2005 and the Lionmaster cab forward to name a couple, not sure if there were any others except the 0-8-0 switchers. Oddly enough the last mohawk was offered about the same time as the last scale j, but the j still had two chuffs go figure. Ultimately I think there are/were some "old school folks" at Lionel who felt 4 chuffs was too staccato or " machine gun-like" Even odder still, the scale tmcc 0-8-0' have always been 4 chuffs since the were first offered 10 or 12 years ago. Nothing could be more staccato than those little switcher drivers

I think the "famous Lionel employee" is JLC himself.

The problem is ya just can't put the genie back in the bottle... Lionel should know this. The fact that these features found their way into entry level engines, but couldn't be added to these models just makes the situation worse. Almost seems like they are counting on people buying them just because MTH has had such a hard time getting any Premiere steam made recently. Well, no thanks. Not for that price. I'll take what I might have spent and buy 2 or 3 Railking Imperial steamers for my son. They don't have whistle steam either... :-p

I spoke with all of Lionel's marketing people.

Yada, yada, yada.

The issue is simple for me.

Lionel Santa Fe Northern, $1299 list = whistle steam. I buy two.

Lionel N & W J, $1,299 list = NO whistle steam. I buy none.

 

Very simple.

 

I vote with my wallet.

Why raise the bar only to lower the bar?

 

PS: I asked the marketing "guru" why again with "611?"

He said that's what the customers want.

I asked him if he had any idea how many Legacy/Vision locos I had?

"Nope."

I said I already have a 611 without whistle steam.

I asked, why would I want another?

Ummmmmmmmm

 

To those who have posted they "understand" Lionel's strategy I would say, I am flummoxed.

 

Next issue. .  .  . The end of the orange module .

I can enter the info using my computer.

Or an infrared sensor.

Whaaaaaaaa ?

 

I use a Mac.

Oh.

 

Well you can run Windows emulation software.

On my Mac?

 

Sure

 

Noooooooooooooooooo

 

You can use the infrared sensor.

Under my ballasted track?

 

Sure.

 

Noooooooooooooooooo

 

Or use the IPad to throw switches.

Let me see.

I don't want to be tethered and . . .  

Um . .  iPad in one hand, cab 2 in the other hand.

Gotta throw a switch.

****, can't hold the IPad and touch the switch icon.

Ooooops, put the Cab 2 down to touch the icon.

**** where is that Cab 2?

 

Whoa

 

Back to the future?

 

Scrappy