Another LC Beep Upgrade

What board did you use Pete?

I recall John's mini-commader upgrade and he found the coupler upgrade to be too much. How did you do it?

I left them off my BEEP upgrade too.

I'd like to have a standard powered unit that I could swap shells on. Since ERR mini-commanders are gone, LC boards make the most sense.

Bob

Bob, I am using a Flyerchief board, LCM2. The couplers had to be modified. They are 1.5” C mount types but the T bar mount had to be cutoff flat to fit under the Beep mount. Still fine tuning.

Essentially the same length as the stock couplers. I will try and post pics later.

Pete

@RSJB18 posted:

I recall John's mini-commader upgrade and he found the coupler upgrade to be too much. How did you do it?

I left them off my BEEP upgrade too.

Bob

Bob, here is how I did the couplers. First photo shows the stock coupler compared to the electro coupler before modification and then with the T bar mount ground off. I just used a Dremel with a cutoff wheel as the diecast was soft and easy to cut through.

O

I made a bushing to better control the height and just installed it with a M3 screw and locknut. Existing centering spring was bent to reach the new coupler.

Pete

Pete, can you share the dimensions of the spacer, that looks like a fairly easy way to have couplers.

John, If you are referring to the brass bushing its not essential but better controls the sag. I started out using a nylon bushing like you would find in a transistor insulator.

Its not an off the shelf part but I made them on my lathe.

The brass bushing was made to fit the coupler. Major OD is about .375”, minor OD that fits the coupler hole is about .187”. Center was drilled and tapped for a M3 .5mm thread. Common 3 mm screw.

BTW there may be better coupler choices. I just used what I had on hand. lionel makes a flyer coupler just as short but they don’t mate with the common O gauge claws. Lionel has made what they refer to as  D mount but only has one of those in stock and its slightly longer.

Pete

Thanks Pete. I'll file this way for a future BEEP upgrade.

Bob

@Norton posted:

John, If you are referring to the brass bushing its not essential but better controls the sag. I started out using a nylon bushing like you would find in a transistor insulator.

Its not an off the shelf part but I made them on my lathe.

The brass bushing was made to fit the coupler. Major OD is about .375”, minor OD that fits the coupler hole is about .187”. Center was drilled and tapped for a M3 .5mm thread. Common 3 mm screw.

BTW there may be better coupler choices. I just used what I had on hand. lionel makes a flyer coupler just as short but they don’t mate with the common O gauge claws. Lionel has made what they refer to as  D mount but only has one of those in stock and its slightly longer.

Pete

I was thinking of maybe 3D printing, but that may not be strong enough.

3D printing would work too. It acts as a washer to spread the support. The advantage of threading it is it can be adjusted to allow easy swing with the nut just locking it in place. If you only use a nut then it should have an insert to resist turning or use locktite.

Pete

I guess I can thread the plastic...

This is the only D mount coupler I could find. It would save having to modify other types.

Pete

I have a few of these RMT Beeps, I've been thinking of putting my diy bluetooth LionChief controller into them. Great to see that there is an off the shelf electrocoupler that is such a close match. I have a pack of Nylon washers I found on Amazon that I bet would be a good fit. I had also picked up a set of 3mm screws with nylock nuts off there for adding power pickups trucks to boxcars (needed power for my LionChief bluetooth range extender and diy Sensor Car so far).  I wonder if the original centering spring would work with that d-mount coupler.

@Ryaninspiron posted:

I have a few of these RMT Beeps, I've been thinking of putting my diy bluetooth LionChief controller into them. Great to see that there is an off the shelf electrocoupler that is such a close match. I have a pack of Nylon washers I found on Amazon that I bet would be a good fit. I had also picked up a set of 3mm screws with nylock nuts off there for adding power pickups trucks to boxcars (needed power for my LionChief bluetooth range extender and diy Sensor Car so far).  I wonder if the original centering spring would work with that d-mount coupler.

I thought I was going to have find another centering spring but was able to bend the existing spring to work. The main reason I made that bushing was because the hole in the coupler is larger than the one in the Beep mount. The Beep mount is plastic and already small so I didn’t want to drill a larger hole in it, rather install a bushing in the coupler hole. The brass piece acts as both the bushing and a washer but two piece would work too. The issues will be more obvious when you remove the stock coupler.

Pete

FWIW, I've repaired a broken BEEP coupler mount as follows:

I received the leftmost chassis in the top photo from a seller on the auction site. I used 4mm square ABS bar to make the "biscuit" shown and drilled out the hole in the biscuit before cementing it in. Everything was cemented using CA which just about "welds" ABS. This gives quite a bit more flexibility in drilling out the hole in the coupler mount. I liked the technique so much that I've reinforced the coupler mounts on all my BEEPs/BEEFs this way. I'll have to file a notch in the front of the biscuit to pass the EC wires through.

@Norton posted:

Bob, I am using a Flyerchief board, LCM2. The couplers had to be modified. They are 1.5” C mount types but the T bar mount had to be cutoff flat to fit under the Beep mount. Still fine tuning.

Essentially the same length as the stock couplers. I will try and post pics later.

Pete

I was thinking of using a flyerchief board for a project. Do you happen to have the pinout documented and handy?

Thanks

@christie posted:

I was thinking of using a flyerchief board for a project. Do you happen to have the pinout documented and handy?

Thanks

I don’t have any documentation. The board I used was for a Flyerchief GP7. All the connectors are marked on the underside of the board. The two pin connector on the daughter board is for the motor. The rest are on the main board. You will need three sizes of JST connectors. 2.54mm for power in. 2mm for the motor. I believe the rest are 1.5mm.

Pete

The connectors are marked???!!! This is beyond exciting!

@Norton posted:

I don’t have any documentation. The board I used was for a Flyerchief GP7. All the connectors are marked on the underside of the board. The two pin connector on the daughter board is for the motor. The rest are on the main board. You will need three sizes of JST connectors. 2.54mm for power in. 2mm for the motor. I believe the rest are 1.5mm.

Pete

Here's a good general reference on Japan Solderless Terminal or JST connectors that are used on boards these days:

https://www.mattmillman.com/in...jst-connector-types/

For 1.5 mm, you'll need JST ZH 2,3,4, and 5-pin, for motor out 2.0 mm JST PH 2-pin, and for track power in 2.5 mm (not 2.54 mm, found out the hard way) JST EH 2-pin. For track power in, be sure to connect the lead from the center rail to the "INHI" input terminal. For the motor out, the front motor, front terminal (+) should be connected to the left terminal (farthest from the green capacitor) of the PH connector on the motor "daughter" board. This will ensure that locomotive direction is coordinated with lighting direction. Thanks to @RSJB18 for this guidance.

These connectors are almost all from China, so they take awhile (a couple of weeks) to arrive but at least they're not expensive. They are available on several auction sites.

@christie posted:

The connectors are marked???!!! This is beyond exciting!

This is a FC GP 7 board.

Some process of deduction but lights are on one plug, front and rear couplers are separate 2-pin. Sound output - spkr + -, etc.

Fun fun fun....

Bill and “Doc” thanks for the amazingly informative replies.

Pete, did you need to add the mini chokes to the motor leads for the RF to function well?

@christie posted:

Bill and “Doc” thanks for the amazingly informative replies.

Pete, did you need to add the mini chokes to the motor leads for the RF to function well?

Never thought about possible RF interference from the motors in the small BEEP enclosure. Are there placement considerations for the "antenna" end of the board to get proper "reception?"

@Bill Swatos posted:

Never thought about possible RF interference from the motors in the small BEEP enclosure. Are there placement considerations for the "antenna" end of the board to get proper "reception?"

Most all my LC installs are in plastic shell diesels. I did install boards in a pair of diecast Williams F3s but haven’t checked those for range yet. I do get at least 30 feet in the Beeps though which is supposed to be typical range for this version of Bluetooth.

No additional antenna added as there is no place for it and no chokes on the motors either.

LC doesn’t lend itself to steam upgrades as chuff appears to be generated by the motor tach and swapping motors or gears is not worth the hassle. Plus the board has to be programed for a particular gear ratio.

Pete

Pete, Doc, and Bill....Vary timely topic. I recently picked up several of the flyerchief boards to tinker with. I took a quick look at them and noted the underside markings. some of these are new to me and not used on Tmcc or Legacy. Pointing out power center rail and meter daughter saved me some head scratching. I crimp my own connectors except for the 1.5mm ZH. GRJ mentioned that those are available from asian  sources. Doc, your input on keeping direction and lights correct is also a time saver.

Many thanks

Richard

Richard, our buddy Jeff Bezos also has most of the JST connectors, at least the smaller pitches. JST EH are hit and miss but for all the LC boards you only need a two pin and pretty sure Jeff has those too.

Pete

Thanks Pete Jeff and I are good friends. I also talk to Digi@@@ from time to time.

Richard

@Norton posted:

Richard, our buddy Jeff Bezos also has most of the JST connectors, at least the smaller pitches. JST EH are hit and miss but for all the LC boards you only need a two pin and pretty sure Jeff has those too.

Pete

Don't forget our "Ali's" too. They have a full assortment of the necessary connectors.

I've done enough -EH pins to know that the smaller ones should be purchased ready made..🤪🤪🤪

After spending hours spelunking in the parts site, I see that for flyerchief GP-7 there are two perhaps “generations” of boards, basically a $75 one and a $100 one. Are the sounds different or improved in the later more expensive board?

thanks again

@christie posted:

After spending hours spelunking in the parts site, I see that for flyerchief GP-7 there are two perhaps “generations” of boards, basically a $75 one and a $100 one. Are the sounds different or improved in the later more expensive board?

thanks again

Can’t help with the high dollar version. Might have better sound or just used in a later engine. For what I put them the older board works fine.

Pete

@christie posted:

After spending hours spelunking in the parts site, I see that for flyerchief GP-7 there are two perhaps “generations” of boards, basically a $75 one and a $100 one. Are the sounds different or improved in the later more expensive board?

thanks again

I believe some of the Flyer LC boards have back-EMF cruise.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe some of the Flyer LC boards have back-EMF cruise.

There are two boards which appear to be the same but with different list prices. The lower dollar one seems to have cruise, at least all engines I put them in behave that way. Start one up running light then hitting a half dozen cars the speed stays constant.

Pete

OK, gents, here's the "maiden voyage" of my first BEEP upgrade to Lionchief/Flyerchief control:

This PRR BEEP is the first one I ever got so it's only right that she got the first upgrade. I've christened her "rjship1" in honor of the guidance from @RSJB18 that allowed me to do this in the first place. I've yet to get the speaker in and tame the "rats nest" of wires under the hood, but I thought you all might like to see that the upgrade process is possible, even for me.

She's running under "transformer" control here, but she runs well on the Lionchief app, as well. Per @Norton & @gunrunnerjohn the $75 GP7 board does seem to have back EMF motor speed control. It seems the absence of flywheels and small armature diameter of the BEEP motors slightly "confuses" the back EMF algorithm in the motor control daughter board, so there's a bit of "jerkiness" at lower speed.

One down, three to go...

Bill, a couple of suggestions regarding speed control. You may be near the limit of what the Beep can pull so its stalling. Also both GRJ and I found there is some sort of issue with the axle material and bearings. We both tried an earlier LC board without Bluetooth and many false sounds were being triggered possibly by some sort of electrical noise. Try applying some contact cleaner to the axles at the bearings.

That board has sound. Do you plan to add a speaker? There should be room.

Pete

I put my speaker in the ceiling of the cab.  I also removed the plastic window insert so the sound could escape.

@Bill Swatos

WOW! I'm honored! And it's a PRR shell to boot! What...no LIRR's.......

I wish I could say I'm close to finishing mine but I'm not. Train time has been slim lately.

Like John said, a 2" speaker fits perfectly up under the cab roof. I left the window insert in and just cut out the rear windows on the cab. Lighting is in, except for the cab light.

I also installed the first of the elecro-couplers. I need to fiddle around with the centering spring a little but it worked out well using Pete's mod.

Hopefully I can get some more done on it over the weekend. Once the second coupler is in, there's not much left except for stuffing all the wiring in under the shell.

Bob

@Norton posted:

Bill, a couple of suggestions regarding speed control. You may be near the limit of what the Beep can pull so its stalling. Also both GRJ and I found there is some sort of issue with the axle material and bearings. We both tried an earlier LC board without Bluetooth and many false sounds were being triggered possibly by some sort of electrical noise. Try applying some contact cleaner to the axles at the bearings.

That board has sound. Do you plan to add a speaker? There should be room.

Pete

Pete, I think you and GRJ may be onto something with the sleeve bearings in that they are not bronze. Further, I had trouble with good continuity between the plate and bearings with this BEEP when I got her. To resolve the problem, I had to add narrow strips of thin metal cut from battery contacts to the area where the plate contacts the flat face of the bearing:

You have to be very careful with the strip thickness, however, because binding of the bearings will result if the strip is just fractions of a millimeter too thick. I really wish the BEEP frames had been diecast, even if just the gearbox enclosure.

Regarding the loading, however, she's pulling the consist shown in my previous post at absolute minimum throttle position in "transformer" mode and runs exactly the same way unloaded at the same throttle position. Under LionChief control, she runs somewhat more smoothly and at much lower minimum speed.

I've got 8-ohm Railmaster Hobbies DS1440 speakers in enclosures on order for this and the other 3 BEEPs I'll be doing. I hope I don't get the false sound triggering you mention above! If I don't, I'll assume the plate-to-bearing continuity is good.