Another One Bites the Dust

As many here already know, Jimmy was a true guru of model train retailing.  We consumers can debate, lament, speculate, etc. until the cows come home, but if you really want to know the ups and downs of the toy train retailing experience, you need to spend some time talking with Jimmy (these days you can find him at or near his favorite fishing hole). 

I think electroliner and Lee raise thoughtful points.  I have a question, however:  at what price differential would you abandon the local store?  And what is the level of service that keeps you loyal?

You see, my perspective is a little different here only because, in my experience, the LHS that offers decent pricing and good service (take Nicholas Smith as an example) has been fine.  The LHS that overprices the market by a considerable margin, and offers indifferent service, seems to have gone by the wayside.  I personally think the average O gauge hobbyist will pay for service in other words so I see the differentiation in the train market as beneficial, where my personal view is that what Lee and electroliner mention has more relevance in the general retail sector -- take Home Depot or Lowe's as an example.  Great warehouses, good luck getting any intelligent help or service. 

My lhs is about 200 miles from me and yes it is a brick and motor shop and I buy from their web site, fast easy and great service. I don't buy from the shop that is 35 mins. From me because of their attitude and they are one of the largest on the east coast. 

The days of buying local and from mom and pop stores are over.  most of my shopping except food shopping is online, it is fast and easy and it shows up at my door. Heck I am even buying a new car online without going to the dealer And they will deliver to my house if asked. 

Its 2013, get used to it. 

Jim, once you had us on the phone you were a master at selling us more than what we orginally called for. I hope you are having as much success getting fish on the hook.

Jimmy was fun to buy from.  I don't know how he knew what my birthday was because he used to call my wife and suggest certain presents  LOL

Overwhelming , ammounts of overhead, will bring anything down, in these times. ( I mean the majority of you are or have been in business).  From the moral support

this forum has for these folks as ya'll know them and bought, their products I would think he would be able to sustain a new style biz, operations, dry storage,(products) , computer, internet, this forum usage,  IF THEY wanted to !

I wish it wasn't but this is the way of the world, and it is my generation that is doing it. I am 42. Let me give you another example, non-train related. I am in the funeral business and work at a large, family run funeral home in Westchester. It used to be, when a family member died you call the funeral home your family used and the funeral director made the arrangements etc, etc. Now, first people dont buy our caskets, they but them on-line or Costco and have them sent to the funeral home. They also shop around, they will make a appt to meet with us and say now I am going to the "other" funeral home..This is the reality of America. I want it now and cheap!

A critical, and very value add service the LHS has historically provided is advice... replaced easily, and very effectively, by this forum. 

The "You'll be sorry when your LHS closes" crowd is beating a dead horse.  I'd guess the number of people that benefit directly from an LHS, but don't buy from it, is very minimal.  Even within this small subset of consumers, I'm sure most understand the consequences of their choices... & presumably are okay with them.  I'm probably giving consumers too much credit, but I can't imagine there are many out there that get upset when a store that they never bought from closes? 

Now, I can see some merit in the argument that as more LHSs close, the hobby (& therefore the industry) is adversely impacted.  Not necessarily from the standpoint of the current hobbyist in the short term  (they'll know where to get everything they need), but from the standpoint of pulling new consumers into the hobby... which of course ensures the longer term viability of the hobby / industry (for all of us).   This assumes LHSs are responsible for introducing at least some new people to the hobby on an ongoing basis.

Given the above is a reasonable assumption, the only realistic "fix" is on the supply side.  Lionel, as the "big dog" needs to take the lead and protect the LHS channel (via fair / level wholesale pricing, retail price controls (think Bose, Apple, etc.), etc.).  It might be tough in the short term... they could lose some market share (to lower priced MTH, Williams, etc.), but if anyone can do it, it's Lionel (brand loyalty, price elasticity v. other brands, etc.).  The move could be worth it in the long run - healthy / fair margins for both you & your dealer network, actually having a network (other than a few large e-tailers), having what might be a dedicated / exclusive retail channel (if I'm a mom & pop shop & I have the choice of selling a Lionel at a decent margin, at the same price as a big internet outfit v. trying to sell an MTH item, at a low margin, competing with wholesaleblowout.com... which am I going to carry?).   If it works, companies like MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, etc. might be forced to fall in line (or risk getting dropped by all their retailers... and going the "direct" route (like RMT recently did)). 

Option B... which is probably more likely (based on what we see today), is that Lionel, MTH, etc. simply don't see much value in the LHS.  i.e., The hobby / industry doesn't need them anymore.  They see the future as either direct to customer over the net, or maybe utilizing a few big distributors to go direct to the customer.   If your supplier doesn't buy into the value you bring to the table, you don't have much of a chance to succeed.   

So Lee is that a shop on the North Side of Raleigh or Toms in Cary? Both are quite a ways from me but I do enjoy heading to Toms. If it was not for two things. Low funds and lack of focus. Although, there are a lot of things the forum here actually provide to new guys. The forum in a way is LHS competition for those looking for entry level stuff or the other end (good collectibles). Then again, just about everything is represented here. Oh BTW Lee, isn't there an expo coming around soon? I went to the last one at the Scott Bldg and purchased my first proto 2.

Gentlemen,

   I do not know if Jim Sutter's trains store used the net much, it was a great place he did thing right, I am not sure how much business he did over the internet however.  Today if you want your business to grow and flurish its a must, that you use the Net. In my case I am down sizing my gun dog training business I stay away from the net, if I did not want to fully retire in a few years, I would definitely have a Web sight.  Today its just part of doing business.

PCRR/Dave

Have you been to Todd's Train Depot in Wendell?  On the eastern outskirts, but definitely the best O gauge shop in the Raleigh area, IMO.  All Lionel and MTH, with good prices and service. 

The "advice" doesn't test run your locomotive or let you inspect the product before purchase.  Nor will the "advice" take your locomotive back for repair, see if it's repairable, do the repair or send it back(at no cost to you, the customer) to the manufacturer for warranty or other repair work.

Rusty

Don:

I have been meaning to at some point maybe once the loop is completed between there and Garner.

Jace 333 and GTW Don - "My" LHS is Tom's Train Station in South Hills Mall off Buck Jones Road in Cary.  Its about 3 miles from home, and right on the way to and from work and so convenient just to zip in for supplies, etc., on to ask their repair guru (Len2 of this forum) questions, and talk to Tom or Jean or any of the others.    They  are all just really nice people, and have both O gauge (for me) and Thomas and Friends (for the grandkids) in one place.  I've been that other store in Raleigh - can't think of the name now, up north off US70, but much much, prefer Tom's. 

I have also been to Todd's in Wendell.  Wow!  My first reaction was, Charles Kuralt would have loved to do a piece on this place!  It is pure O gauge inventory heaven, and that lady behind the counter knows more about Lionel and MTH that anyone I have ever talked to: been there, done that, has the stories to prove it!.  But Todd's is a 30+ minute drive at least, open strange hours (1 PM to I think 8 PM) and has only a bit of "the small stuff" like scratch building supplies, etc.  On the other hand, I've never seen an inventory of rolling stock like they carry anywhere else.

Lee:

My son lived in Cary for a while before getting married, now he is in Durham.  I've been to Tom's a few times when visiting him.  Lot's of inventory.  Does he still have the layout in the mall aisle?

On a seperate topic, Crossroads Ford has a great museum of early Ford vehicles.

There will always be reason or two why one might support a "local" LHS... but they're getting fewer and fewer.  Being able to touch & test something has some value to some people (assuming the LHS is good at promoting this service... which some certainly aren't), but if that's our best pitch, we're in trouble. 

As far as warranty service, there are "non local" LHS that offer great service.  In fact, they can send a return label straight to you & you can send it to the factory.... saves you time, gas money, etc.  Sure, not all "non local" LHSs are good at this... but not all "local" LHSs are good at taking care of warranty issues either. 

Repair?  Some value here, but how many LHSs have someone that can fix a high end electronic issue? I know some do, but many don't.  The number of items that can't be fixed by your average Joe, but can be fixed by the local repair guy, is decreasing.   

Little stuff?  Michaels, AC Moore, the internet. It's very easy to get. 

Point is, we shouldn't blame the internet for an LHS failing.  All the internet is doing is removing physical contraints.  It allows consumers to find businesses that cater to their needs, regardless of location.  For some, price is key.  For others, service &/or selection is important.  For many, it's a combination. 

The culprit, I think, is more so the supply side, as I noted above.  If the suppliers are going to give certain retailers price breaks, allow predatory pricing, etc... those on the short end of the stick can't survive, especially with everything else stacked against them.  The "I'm down the street, you can look at it before you buy it" value proposition is woefully lacking.   

I live in Durham, so it's a hike for me as well.  That & I haven't needed to buy anything in a while... its probably been about two years since I've been there, but I agree, it's a good, "old timey" O Gauge experience!   The funniest part is she smokes in the store!  Pretty sure it's not legal, but I can't imagine anyone giving her a hard time about it... sweet ol' gal.  Stepping into the shop, you wonder if you've stepped through some kind of portal & went back to 1965 (until you see the Legacy & PS3 stuff).      

My guess is there will always be more than just a handful of super dealers, although those so-called super dealers will also likely be around as well.  If they start to drop off, then there will be something to worry about.

Folks who aren't fortunate enough to have a somewhat local dealer--especially those folks who did have one at some point in the past--are probably best aware of what is missed when the experience is no longer available.

The Internet is great, but there is no substitute for face-to-face interaction and the opportunity to share experiences with others you know or meet who are involved in the hobby.  Many great and lasting friendships have been formed in local hobby shops.  This hobby IS, or should be, about more than just the things we buy.

Only 3 or 4 years ago, you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a train store in my area. Every town had one, if not two. Now, hobby shops of any kind are few and far between. If I want Lionel products, my closest dealer is Charles Ro, some 20 miles away.

I understand the necessity of an internet presence. I have two local hobby shops one within 12 miles and another 75 miles up the road. The closer one rarely has what I’m looking for and no internet presence. Still I do give them a shot whenever I’m looking for something. The place is run by an elderly gentlemen and his son. Sometimes I think it’s more a hobby for them than anything else. The Roundhouse South is 75 miles up the road and has more of my interests. Plus it has an internet presence so if I’m on the road I can e-mail Tony and he’ll get back to me pretty quickly with the information. I have no qualms about spending extra to support either of these shops. I usually save on shipping in the long run and gain extra knowledge and friendships with the face to face transaction. I try to support local businesses in all my purchases. I’ve even made a pretty good effort in removing Walmart as an option over the past year.

I’m wondering if the internet will continue to gain in its share of the market. A side from the increasing costs of shipping. I’m beginning to think an increasing number of people believe “They can’t put it on the internet if it’s not true”. I notice more disrespect from young people when they interact with others face to face. Some can’t even look another person straight in the eye and are actually uncomfortable when you show them this respect.

Maybe I’m wrong but I’d like to believe there will come a time when people will recognize the damage a complete digital existence can do to the socializing of man and begin to dial it back at some point.

I think I remember hearing somewhere Man can not live a solitary existence and needs the benefits of interacting with others to achieve a sense of his existence.