Anyone have 3rd Rail or MTH P5a Boxcab?

I have both the 3rd Rail P5a boxcab and P5a modified. I'll send pictures tomorrow. They both are beautiful models. We're talking early 2000's, perhaps earlier?  I've always wondered how conversions would work in brass models.

Jan

I have the MTH P5a, had to take it off the shelf and dust it off.   Still runs great and has the operating pans and steam release as well.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the MTH P5a, had to take it off the shelf and dust it off.   Still runs great and has the operating pans and steam release as well.

GRJ - I was hoping you might chime in as you are the master of ERR!

Do you run this with DCS or have you done a ERR conversion? If you haven't done the conversion, do you think it would be possible?

An ERR conversion is certainly possible, but I'm not sure how close you can come.  Certainly, the operating pans would be history, ERR doesn't offer anything like that.  The steam release could probably be simulated with a timer on the smoke control if you wanted it.  Movement and lights aren't a big issue, those are certainly doable.

The biggest issue I see is the sounds, you would be limited to the GG-1/EP5 sound set.  Close, but probably not ideal.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

An ERR conversion is certainly possible, but I'm not sure how close you can come.  Certainly, the operating pans would be history, ERR doesn't offer anything like that.  The steam release could probably be simulated with a timer on the smoke control if you wanted it.  Movement and lights aren't a big issue, those are certainly doable.

The biggest issue I see is the sounds, you would be limited to the GG-1/EP5 sound set.  Close, but probably not ideal.

I appreciate the input! I figured I would have to use a GG1 sound set on it if I go with the conversion. Not too concerned about loosing the steam release - I'll be using these on freights anyways .

As you mentioned, the big loss would be the operating pans. I don't think the 3rd Rail P5 has operating pans so it might make more sense to do the conversion on that model of it. (I could be wrong, but I don't think that they come with TMCC from the factory as they are older models).

The MTH pans work fine manually, you would just take off the motor assembly inside and all would be well and they'd be like the 3rd rail, manual.

I've never thought about making them work with a TMCC upgrade, obviously something might be possible, just keyed off the direction, but that would have to be researched.  My sense is it would be a simple custom board that watched the directional lights and did the pan operation, it's pretty simple logic.  If you didn't use the smoke for steam release, you could use that output to disable the pans and pull them both down by command control as well.

I've done 2 - 3 dozen ERR (actually a couple of Train America at first) conversions over the last 20 years. Not an expert, and I don't get fancy, but I'm familiar. Go/Stop/Sound (usually)/E'coupler(s). Done. Smoke, if track powered.

But - TMCC antennas on a brass or die-cast electric....it's not like you have or can make a plastic coal load/oil bunker, or have a plastic tender or diesel body, or have a metal tender body to insulate. I converted an MTH NYC all die-cast P-2 electric to ERR some time back. I wound up insulating the entire body shell, which was tedious, as I recall.

Heck, for a while, a whip antenna was looking pretty good.

How do you experts do it on these brass/die-cast full-metal-jacket electrics?

Well, with pantographs, as long as they're not going to be actively employed for power, I use those as the antenna.  Otherwise, at least for the P5a, it would probably be floating the shell.  I've floated the shell on a couple of GG1's, and many tenders, so I'm sure that could be arranged.

Here are some more pics of the P5a from 3rd Rail. Sorry, I've never mounted the pantographs on the box cab. Both run fine in conventional, but I've not converted them to TNCC so they are wonderful shelf queens...

The box cab has operating pans.

Ron

MTH P5a Box Cab - Gorgeous Model!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The MTH pans work fine manually, you would just take off the motor assembly inside and all would be well and they'd be like the 3rd rail, manual.

I've never thought about making them work with a TMCC upgrade, obviously something might be possible, just keyed off the direction, but that would have to be researched.  My sense is it would be a simple custom board that watched the directional lights and did the pan operation, it's pretty simple logic.  If you didn't use the smoke for steam release, you could use that output to disable the pans and pull them both down by command control as well.

Not sure if you have this answer handy, but how do MTH pans stop at full extension? Limit switch?

If it is a limit switch, then it easily could be controlled off the directional lighting as you said.

The pans do stop at their limits, they're actually quite reliable.  The only issue with them is the belt is the weak point, that's the most common repair I do on the pans for MTH, simple replace it with the correct sized O-ring.

As John says but after they are released they ride spring (lightly) load so they will follow the contour of the catenary wire.

Ron

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The pans do stop at their limits, they're actually quite reliable.  The only issue with them is the belt is the weak point, that's the most common repair I do on the pans for MTH, simple replace it with the correct sized O-ring.

Sorry, I should've phrased my question better... how exactly does the motor raising the pans know when to stop?

I could see them using one of these but unsure.

Lionel mechanisms on scale electrics deploy into a fixed position that cannot follow catenary height variances.  MTH remains spring loaded when deployed so that the option to power from pants is possible. 

I have the MTH P5 boxcab with late PS2.  Zinc pest exists on numerous examples of this batch.  In fact, I see it also exists on the roof of VThokie's.  Mine has deteriorated worse, a condition that didn't exist when I purchased it second hand.  I hope whoever gets back to building these can provide us with replacement shells.

Bruce

@brwebster posted:

I have the MTH P5 boxcab with late PS2.  Zinc pest exists on numerous examples of this batch.  In fact, I see it also exists on the roof of VThokie's.  Mine has deteriorated worse, a condition that didn't exist when I purchased it second hand.  I hope whoever gets back to building these can provide us with replacement shells.

MTH had them in the 2020 Catalog, delivery in June 2021.  I suspect it'll be a long while before they're run again!

https://mthtrains.com/search/P...field_catalog%3A7715