Approximate year of mfg..or how to use serial # of my LIONEL AMTRAK #960 GE60

In the late 1970s Williams made a E60 body kit but you had to salvage motors, e unit and trucks from a Lionel F3 or GP unit. In the 1980s Williams started selling them ready to run with can motors etc. Williams quit making the E60 around 2000. 

The Williams E60 Amtrak engine was released in 1980.  You had to find scrounge trucks, motor or motors and e unit from a Lionel Geep.  There were 2000 produced.  The following year because of the success of the Amtrak model they released six more road names.  About 100 each were made.  They are usually found with Lionel four wheel trucks and either one or two motors.  One motor did not pull well.  Later when Lionel developed a six wheel truck for their Geeps some of those made their way to E60's.  After a run of FM's, Williams had some frames and running gear left over and mated them to some remaining E60's.

If the photo is clear enough you can see both four and six wheel trucks and one with the FM frame.  Because the width was wider the cab sits high on the FM frame.  Yours appears to have decals for the name and number.  Earliest production.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

The Williams E60 Amtrak engine was released in 1980.  You had to find scrounge trucks, motor or motors and e unit from a Lionel Geep.  There were 2000 produced.  The following year because of the success of the Amtrak model they released six more road names.  About 100 each were made.  They are usually found with Lionel four wheel trucks and either one or two motors.  One motor did not pull well.  Later when Lionel developed a six wheel truck for their Geeps some of those made their way to E60's.  After a run of FM's, Williams had some frames and running gear left over and mated them to some remaining E60's.

If the photo is clear enough you can see both four and six wheel trucks and one with the FM frame.  Because the width was wider the cab sits high on the FM frame.  Yours appears to have decals for the name and number.  Earliest production.

Thank you...it only has one motor...😀🚆so it IS a Williams..because they owned the patent rights or actually owned lionel...I'm foggy on after the 1980s caus of all the takeover..merergers ect...love the GM cereal years...but postwar RULES in my BOOK....maybe not all the electronic gizzmos...but built like brick ****t house's😜🚂😀💗

Bill DeBrooke posted:

The Williams E60 Amtrak engine was released in 1980.  You had to find scrounge trucks, motor or motors and e unit from a Lionel Geep.  There were 2000 produced.  The following year because of the success of the Amtrak model they released six more road names.  About 100 each were made.  They are usually found with Lionel four wheel trucks and either one or two motors.  One motor did not pull well.  Later when Lionel developed a six wheel truck for their Geeps some of those made their way to E60's.  After a run of FM's, Williams had some frames and running gear left over and mated them to some remaining E60's.

If the photo is clear enough you can see both four and six wheel trucks and one with the FM frame.  Because the width was wider the cab sits high on the FM frame.  Yours appears to have decals for the name and number.  Earliest production.

Ps..one of my 2 bestest favorite..my 1956/58 NH JET🚊AND MY 52 54 C& O NW2🚆

Überstationmeister posted:

Lionel was not directly involved- Williams made the body and frame as a kit. The buyer supplied his/her own motor, reverse unit, fuel tank, etc. from a pre-existing Lionel diesel. You have a very early Williams GE 60 from the 1980s.

😀🚊👍thanks again

Bill DeBrooke posted:

The Williams E60 Amtrak engine was released in 1980.  You had to find scrounge trucks, motor or motors and e unit from a Lionel Geep.  There were 2000 produced.  The following year because of the success of the Amtrak model they released six more road names.  About 100 each were made.  They are usually found with Lionel four wheel trucks and either one or two motors.  One motor did not pull well.  Later when Lionel developed a six wheel truck for their Geeps some of those made their way to E60's.  After a run of FM's, Williams had some frames and running gear left over and mated them to some remaining E60's.

If the photo is clear enough you can see both four and six wheel trucks and one with the FM frame.  Because the width was wider the cab sits high on the FM frame.  Yours appears to have decals for the name and number.  Earliest production.

Ps..one of my 2 bestest favorite..my 1956/58 NH JET🚊AND MY 52 54 C& O NW2🚆

Gene H posted:

In the late 1970s Williams made a E60 body kit but you had to salvage motors, e unit and trucks from a Lionel F3 or GP unit. In the 1980s Williams started selling them ready to run with can motors etc. Williams quit making the E60 around 2000. 

Thank you..funny how the chassis frame looks EERILIE like my B&M GP 😀

Überstationmeister posted:

Lionel was not directly involved- Williams made the body and frame as a kit. The buyer supplied his/her own motor, reverse unit, fuel tank, etc. from a pre-existing Lionel diesel. You have a very early Williams GE 60 from the 1980s.

😀🚊👍thanks again

Bill DeBrooke posted:

The Williams E60 Amtrak engine was released in 1980.  You had to find scrounge trucks, motor or motors and e unit from a Lionel Geep.  There were 2000 produced.  The following year because of the success of the Amtrak model they released six more road names.  About 100 each were made.  They are usually found with Lionel four wheel trucks and either one or two motors.  One motor did not pull well.  Later when Lionel developed a six wheel truck for their Geeps some of those made their way to E60's.  After a run of FM's, Williams had some frames and running gear left over and mated them to some remaining E60's.

If the photo is clear enough you can see both four and six wheel trucks and one with the FM frame.  Because the width was wider the cab sits high on the FM frame.  Yours appears to have decals for the name and number.  Earliest production.

Ps..one of my 2 bestest favorite..my 1956/58 NH JET🚊AND MY 52 54 C& O NW2🚆

posted:

 

THANKS..SO the chassis says lionel..and looks like the bm gp 2346..so i kinda have the early enough Williams body to just sit on the lionel chassis..thats kinda cool/unique😀

posted:

 

THANKS..SO the chassis says lionel..and looks like the bm gp 2346..so i kinda have the early enough Williams body to just sit on the lionel chassis..thats kinda cool/unique😀

Wulfe67 posted:

posted:The chassis is Williams.  The trucks are Lionel.  The fuel tank is Lionel and marked as such.  That causes the confusion.

 

 

THANKS..SO the chassis says lionel..and looks like the bm gp 2346..so i kinda have the early enough Williams body to just sit on the lionel chassis..thats kinda cool/unique😀

Bill DeBrooke posted:

Wulfe67 posted:

posted:The chassis is Williams.  The trucks are Lionel.  The fuel tank is Lionel and marked as such.  That causes the confusion.

 

 

THANKS..SO the chassis says lionel..and looks like the bm gp 2346..so i kinda have the early enough Williams body to just sit on the lionel chassis..thats kinda cool/unique😀

 

Thanks..i HAVE it now....😜so its like a Frankenstein👍lol...ABBY NORMAL😀

I have several new, old stock, unbuilt Williams E60 kits.
As has already been written, the kits came with the cab, pantographs, cab trim, and a frame.
The frame was punched out to accept two Lionel Geep motors.
Also included was an adapter plate to allow the owner to use a dummy truck to make a single motored loco.
The customer had to provide the motor truck(s), battery cover / fuel tank, and the e-unit.
Not certain about the light sockets / bulbs. I'd have to check one of the kits.

This engine was covered in the Greenberg book on Williams trains.
Some of the information in the book is a bit sketchy, but it is the only reference out there that I know of.
It can be rather hard to find.

According to the book, I think there is a variation in how the Amtrak locomotive was decorated. I will try to check the details later.

The Greenberg guide to Williams was written by John Hubbard, who worked with Williams.

According to Mr. Hubbard:
2000 Amtrak cabs, made in two groups. The first group was decorated with pressure sensitive letters and numerals. The second group was silk screened. No quantities given for the variations. 
Approximately 100 each of the following:
Penn Central (black)
New Haven (orange, white, and black)
Conrail (blue and white)
Virginian (blue and Yellow or yellow and black)
Pennsylvania (tuscan with gold lettering)

Here is an example of sketchy information:
It is unclear to be whether there were 100 of each Virginian paint scheme or 100 combined.

(This largely repeats information given above by Bill)

C W Burfle posted:

I have several new, old stock, unbuilt Williams E60 kits.
As has already been written, the kits came with the cab, pantographs, cab trim, and a frame.
The frame was punched out to accept two Lionel Geep motors.
Also included was an adapter plate to allow the owner to use a dummy truck to make a single motored loco.
The customer had to provide the motor truck(s), battery cover / fuel tank, and the e-unit.
Not certain about the light sockets / bulbs. I'd have to check one of the kits.

This engine was covered in the Greenberg book on Williams trains.
Some of the information in the book is a bit sketchy, but it is the only reference out there that I know of.
It can be rather hard to find.

According to the book, I think there is a variation in how the Amtrak locomotive was decorated. I will try to check the details later.

Thats neat..being i make model's thats actually cool you could actually mave a custom engine..and even a one of a kind...the wheel base is long so if i had the money and time ..i could make a duel motor duel magnitraction dueloperating couplers..and a old bell like in the upgrade 50s nw switchers..it could pull 50 old heavy cars easy👍😀

I remember back around 1979 Charles Ro offered single & twin motored E60s built up from Williams kits, including magnetraction.  I have a PC E60 that has the FM trucks. And an Amtrak E60 with six wheel SD trucks.

Ken

Attached is the brochure for the E60 and the boxes they came in.  Initially they came in the box with the picture and then later the 'Golden Memories' box.

Thank you for posting the photo of the brochure. I don't think I have seen it before.
Is the back blank? - I didn't notice any mention of it being a kit, or needed Lionel motor trucks.
I noticed the price tag on your box.
Any idea what the original price was?

C W Burfle posted:

Thank you for posting the photo of the brochure. I don't think I have seen it before.
Is the back blank? - I didn't notice any mention of it being a kit, or needed Lionel motor trucks.
I noticed the price tag on your box.
Any idea what the original price was?

There probably was a brochure promoting the E60.  I closest I have is a rather large brochure advertising several different Williams products.  The price indicated is $69.50 without trucks.  By the time the first brochure I posted was distributed it was probably known that there were no trucks.  The back of the brochure was blank so that dealers could make use of it for promoting other products.  I have included one of those advs.

Don't forget the E60 along with the Metroliners we're rerun again by Jerry Williams somewhere around the " Turn of the Century". These E60's had the E/ PA equidistant truck blocks along with EMD E7 side frames and the can motors with flywheels. These E60's are more sought after hence one doesn't see them too much at shows and on-line.

Thanks for the additional info. More stuff I don't recall seeing before. There doesn't seem to be much out there on Williams. I never would have guessed that the kits cost so much.

I have the Conrail version using Lionel parts from a GP9.  It is an interesting item for the collection.  I think I have 3 or 4 Amtrak ones from various times over the years.  Those are all Williams.

Who has the very rare unauthorized NJT version?  That is a collectible one.