Are we partially to blame for manufacturers' inferior products and quality control issues?

I get very frustrated with my trains sometimes. One of my steamers, a little over a year old and out of warranty, now refuses to puff smoke. It just pours out.

It seems that when I have an issue with a new engine, I get a gruff voice at the LHS that wants to blame me for doing something wrong. Phone calls to the manufacturers can be equally as cold.

In my other hobby, watch collecting, I spend similiar dollars. Sometimes much, much, more. I once had an issue with a high-end timepiece. The local store I bought it from was falling all over themselves to keep my happy. They even gave me a loaner while mine was being repaired. Much of the train budget has been re-allocated to other projects and interests.

My answer to the OP is that we are not to blame, nor will we be to blame when these folks close their doors.

My two cents....for whatever they're worth: 

1) Most sensible individuals who are NOT involved in the hobby would find the notion of pre-ordering trains (especially the expensive items that most of us really like) absolutely nuts.  "You just gave someone $1,100 for an item that you haven't seen yet, will probably differ from the catalog picture and description, have no idea when it will arrive or if it will work...and you probably can't return it?  Are you nuts?"  Think about it - would you buy a car that way? 

1.1)  On the flip side, the model train companies have passed almost all of the risk/exposure on to the dealers who probably make the least amount of money on the whole transaction.  Is there any other hobby where the dealers can't afford to display an entire catalogue because it's not financially feasible?  Why tie up $900-to $1,000 on an item only to have it sell (possibly) for $1,200 in 6-12 months...or more? 

2)  I've never really been a fan of outsourcing.  That said, the current distribution channel and manufacturing process of this hobby is, again, nuts.  How can Lionel or MTH or whoever market their products when they don't know when the products will arrive or how many of them will arrive or what condition they'll arrive in, etc?  If any of the above issues can not be fixed, how can quality control be improved?  Is there really a communication channel available where a consumer or hobby store owner can provide feedback to Lionel or MTH....and MTH or Lionel can then, in turn, discuss this with the manufacturer in an attempt to fix the problem?  

Most items are made in China or Korea as cheaply as possible.  They are then packaged, put on a boat, and floated over to the U.S. at the manufacturer's behest.  If any issues arise, the manufacturer has already moved on to the next model/catalogue.  

As an aside (and I hope I'm not being naive here), I do wonder if the current attempt by Lionel to manufacture some cars in the U.S. again is an attempt to begin bringing the manufacturing of our hobby's products back to the States.  For a moment, think about it:  other than trying to sell their products for as much as possible while making said products for as little as possible, how can Lionel or MTH run their business with the current Chinese/Korean model?  How much control do they really have...over anything?  How do you run a business when you don't know when your product will arrive, how many will arrive, and in what condition they will arrive in?  A lot of control has been lost in the name of low cost.

Just my opinion.  And it's just a hobby, after all.

The most I might pay for a pre-order is a deposit that can be used towards another order if the item is cancelled, not the full amount.

Andrew

The problem(s) I see with the statement that person made is that if we were really disgusted with the hobby, we would switch.  There's a thousand things to do with my time, I wouldn't waste it if I didn't feel I was satisfied.

And also, we do tend to combat these issues.  We all like the scratch build, but how many of us are willing to spend a few bucks on a pile of junk that doesn't work in any way such as the product described?

As for 'sub-par' products that have minor inconveniences such as poor sound, we either complain or upgrade.  If this is the mod that person was talking about, then yes, we do contribute to the problem.

But when it all comes down to it, I think it's a bit much to condemn the whole hobby because of one product.  It's also a bit much to accuse the buyer, instead of the seller, for a faulty product.  We didn't design it, it's not our fault something doesn't run.

Finally, I would need to know what product they were talking about in order to understand fully.  If it was some walmart piece of $20 dollar plastic, they got what they paid for.  But if it's some MTH or Lionel, High end engine with a minor defect, then this person is just letting of steam in words; or if said product was high end with a major defect, then there is a serious issue to address.

All in all, I do love this hobby because of how far we've come with realism and quality, and where it looks like we're going to.

Brakeman brings up a point that is valid in my experience. I think there are periods where everyone gets frustrated  or bored with the hobby for one reason or another, and learning how to take a break from the hobby instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and using that opportunity to try something else that's new. I began trying my hand at restoring Marx Trucks from the 1940's and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I built a covered bridge for the G gauge outside. After a time I walked back into the train room and saw it with "new eyes" and thought to myself, "well, this is very cool." Too much of anything as they say can get a bit obsessive where mountains are really molehills. At least that is my perspective from experience. 

I'm not sure exactly how this expands on the original question but here is my take...

From the standpoint that we continue to buy the inferior products and not choose to either go without or spend our dollars with a focus on quality, yes, we are responsible. I would also say though that when presented with the choice between "inferior product"  or no product, it can be hard not to go with "something is better than nothing".  I know the economy is tough but I think there is an opportunity here for someone to come in and "do it better" whether that is an existing manufacturer or someone new.

I think it's a personalized combo of 'expectations' and 'pet peeves' - and to a degree, skill set.

(Ironically, the only pieces of software I have ever found that have zero defects are viruses, malware, and trojans. All the rest have bugs or "undocumented features".

Likewise, the only train that will never have a problem is the one that is never made.)

I guess the 'reaction' all depends on the person and the product, and I don't think there is a one size that fits all.

The LHS from whom I buy all of my new Lionel locomotives fully tests each and every one I purchase. My locomotive failures (out of hundreds) are nearly zero.The two dealers from which I buy MTH locomotives do the same.I visit at least 100+ train shops all over the country during my travels with my job.If I purchase a locomotive,I insist that we give it a trail run.A few years ago,I was in one shop where the owner "belly ached" about it at first.I assured him if everything checked out,I would buy the engine.When the locomotive was opened for the first time.It had severe damage from shipping.Loose train,shells broken from the frame.He was very glad he did so and from now on will open and test all the locomotives he stocks.I didn't leave empty handed.I did purchase some nice Atlas rolling stock from him.

Ricky

In my case, if it's a simple problem I can correct, I'll fix it myself.  If it's a problem with mechanicals, electronics or decoration, I take it back to my LHS, who will determine if they can repair it or send it back to the manufacturer.

And yes, I was upset regarding a decoration issue about a year ago and posted about it, but I also did the above and when it was resolved to my satisfaction, posted about that, also.

I'm still trying to understand the exact issues of the original post.

Here's the pertinent quote from the original post as I see it:

"My hobby store owner offered to do several "mods" free of charge, basically rebuilding the entire set out of pieces from other manufacturers, but I was so disgusted in my experience that I turned his offer down."

Now, it appears the person in question bought the set from Amazon and it didn't work properly somehow.  What we don't know: Was it a single problem or cascading problems?

By his own admission, he had access to a LHS that offered to correct the problem that for a product that was not bought at the LHS for NO CHARGE to him. 

He, by his own admission, refused the offer of free repair/replacement, then posted a vague, negative rant on Amazon.  And we still don't know what exactly the issue was, other than "It don't work."

He has every right to be upset and disappointed with a new purchase that doesn't work properly, but I fail to understand what his expectations of a suitable solution was.

The only conclusion I can draw from the original post is that this is a person who has little to no mechanical ability and even less patience.

Rusty

I just realized that I came in on the second page and quoted what I thought was the original poster's remarks elaborating on his subject.  I apologize for my error.

Wow. Reading this thread just made me realize how thankful I should be that I don't work in retail any more Some customers will never be happy no matter WHAT you do to solve a problem...

I found the reviews of the O gauge Polar Express.If you read though the various "Bad" reviews,many are addressing the G gauge battery powered set which IMHO is a terrible product and has done considerable damage to Lionel's reputation.

I have given several recent Lionel Starter sets (Harry Potter,Polar Express,Santa Fe 0-8-0 work train)as gifts.All sets have held up well and there have been no CW80/CW30 failures.

A cousin bought her son a G gauge Harry Potter set (against my objections).IT never worked out of the box.She called me and I instructed her to get the O gauge set and extra straight track.IT worked great!

Ricky

I don't buy any new O-gauge trains, because they are too expensive and the electronic features tend to be high maintenance. I have mostly older O-gauge trains that I buy for cheap and which I can repair myself.

A reliable train is a fun train. Complicated problematic trains are an aggravation.

Another observation, and I'm treading gently as to not come off as acerbic or mean-spirited at this benelovent time of happiness and good will, it seems some posters are making excuses for the shortcomings of model train manufacturers regarding the product complaints, albeit  however small percentage wise they are.

For those reminding us we are talking about toy trains raging in cost from a few hundred to possibly 1,000+ dollars - what about RC model airplanes, helicopters, cars and boats? Although different, they are similar in cost, and with mechanical and electronic features and components coupled to a need for uncompromising design and reliability. Visit RC car, plane, helicopter and boat forums and they're devoid of the amount of dissatisfaction and complaints you'll find on the OGR forum. Does that then signify 1.) those models have less of a failure rate,   2.) those hobbyists are less discerning, less criticial or less complaining than we folks at OGR, or both #1 and #2.

Think about it and you be the judge.

There are definitely three G set reviews mixed in and possible two as suspect. Ten percent G sets listed erroneously as O gauge sets could be described as "many".Just an observation.I thought this should be pointed out.

I have to agree with Ace. His pictures say it all. I have bought very very few new S gauge trains.

I buy older American Flyer including basket cases (very cheap) that I can either fix or use for parts. Usually if the train, or accessory, is working when I buy it all it needs is routine maintenance to keep it running. In my opinion it's less of a risk buying older trains, rather than buying new trains with more expensive and complex features I don't need or want, so why pay for them?

Out of the one new set of trains and two new locomotives I have purchased, one locomotive had to be exchanged for one that worked; and one of the cars of the set had a minor problem I was able fix after the owner (manufacturer) explained the cause of the problem (from a QA perspective--two problems out of three purchases--horrible, but great customer service!). Luckily both companies were known for their excellent support.

Rich

P.S. The December 2012 issue of Atlantic Magazine has two interesting articles about the future of American industry.

Well said Ace!

I know what I read.I'm done with this thread.

I wonder if reps from Lionel and MTH are reading these blogs and taking our comments seriously.  bertiejoa

david1

you are so right.

I think the "atypical" forum members are a group to be taken seriously. They are the folks that stick with it and provide feedback because they care. The non-forum folks who buy toy trains that don't work right out of the box probably discard the idea forever and go on to DS, Wii, Xbox, and PS3 for the family entertainment which work right out of the box and never come back to Lionel, MTH, etc.

As for that G scale battery operated plastic train, I had to buy three of them to keep one running for several years around the tree at Christmas for my one grandson. That can't be good for the brand for those that aren't willing or able to do that.

a customers best protection against an inferior product is to purchase it with american express. they have the best consumer protection policy, bar non!

I fully agree!  It's the card I prefer to use, although some very fine dealers do not accept American Express (the fee to merchants is a bit higher than other cards).  Still, I use it whenever I possibly can, and most of the folks I deal with most often do, indeed, take AMEX.

When you have a problem with anything you buy with your American Express card, the folks at AMEX are pretty darn good at getting things straightened out for you--and quickly.  I have used that service a couple of times (not train related) and likely will be using them again very soon if an expensive piece of furniture I ordered doesn't arrive this week.  It was due to arrive "on or before" Dec. 14.

According to the news media, poor quality in our trains is due to global warming, the NRA and Tea Party, and Bush.

I would like to add our 2 "O" gauge magazines to the list. I've read more than a few reviews of new products containing "oops, this did'nt work, had trouble with that, so and so broken/missing" followed by "A wonderful addition to your fleet". I guess some of you will comment "that is better than no review at all", or "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all".

Those aren't flaws!  Those are features!!!!  These toy trains are just like some of the Corvettes I bought back in the 70s and 80s - they come from the factory sort of halfway between a kit that you have to work on and a completely assembled car!

Okay, I just now figured out a decent statement.  Are we at fault for this particular product?  No, because this item was meant for a child, not some experienced modeler looking for something to modify.  Therefore, there is no excuse for a bad product when meant for a child.  This is generally true for stater sets.  The things most people rebuild, modify, or experiment with are the cheaper, secondhand items that aren't worth much.

Palallin,you hit the nail on the head! Great observation! 

I know I fit squarely in the first group!

Ricky

Palallin-What you refer to as replacing of electronic devices every year or two due to failure, consumer surveys have shown is actually replacement due to obsolescence and upgrading to computerized electronic devices having newer features rather than because of the the failure of electronic or mechanical components (that's at least true for mid quality and higher name brands (I'm not talking about people who buy a $20 - $60 no name or rebranded cheapie dvd and cd player, etc. and then unrealistically and unreasonably expect any real semblence of lasting quality at that pricepoint.)

Are we partially to blame for manufacturers' inferior products and quality control issues?

Yes WE are..We started and continue to buy this cheap imported junk that has an American price tag on it..Period! 

quote:

Any toy more complicated than a ball is going to have a high failure rate, whether immediately out of the box or some time later.  How many Christmas toys will be broken and trashed within a fortnight of Christmas morning?

I guess you must have some really bad luck purchasing toys. Very few, if any of my children's toys failed. The one noteable exception was our first Xbox 360. They were known to have problems with overheating, and over time, the open space we had around it was diminished until it eventually cooked itself.

As far as i am concerned, toys broken through inappropriate rough handling cannot be compared with toys that fail due to poor quality control.

The level of quality control employed by our toy train manufacturers must be acceptable, because they continue to sell product. If folks did not accept the current level, the manufacturers would have to either raise their level of quality control, or go out of business.

So, yes, we are to blame.

We just bought a ball (basketball) for the grandson and it wouldn't hold air after filling it up when we got home. So we returned it.

I never have a problem where electronics are involved as I only buy pre-91 Lionel products that were Made in the USA and these have proven to be of high quality. I've purchased many MPC/Kuhn era pieces, many still NIB and after a good re-oiling they always work just like the postwar trains do. As for simple rolling stock I will occasionally buy the newer stuff. To answer the question I don't see how any blame can be put on the consumers that buy $1500 engines. How can it possibly be their fault if poor quality is in the product?