"I am happy to report that over 12,929 registered to attend". This is official from ED.
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Many must of stayed home because it sure looked like less people there. Parking was not bad either. Got there both days a 15 min before the show opened and I parked in the second row in front of the Orange Hall.
That is, I believe, somewhat less than the last York show, which I thought was a bit less than the prior York show.
From a previous post:
April 2013 12929
April 2012 13403
October 2011 13608
April 2011 13521
October 2010 13648
April 2010 13749
It looks like a 6% decline over the past 3 years, with this April being about 3.5% less than a year ago April 2012.
Does anyone know about how many of these attendees are actually commercial sellers or other table holders?
There is no doubt in my mind--and I look for this sort of thing at each York Meet I attend--that there were significantly fewer actual participants at the meet than at any prior York Meet I have attended.
There's no way for the actual on-site attendance to be accurately determined, of course, but all one had to do was walk around the grounds and through the halls on Thursday and Friday to get a feel for the number of people and cars (and RVs) there.
Like others, I, too, have registered for the meet in the past but not actually attended for one reason or another. Some probably take similar advantage of the low registration fee just to hedge their bets in the event they change their minds at the last minute, or they may have circumstances in their lives change that permit them to attend or preclude them from attending.
I registered, but did not attend this time.
When the numbers before this meet were posted recently (what Barry pasted, less April 2013), even though there was some variation, I considered the differences almost in the noise since there was only ~ 350 person delta across 4 meets. When talking about over 13,000 people, that's not a huge delta.
Thinking a little more after this meet, I did note that at my hotel up near Harrisburg the parking lot was not as full as in previous years. On both Friday and Saturday morning, I think there was only myself and one or 2 other cars on the one side of the hotel (the other half did look pretty full). Years ago (I started in the late 90's), I recall it being pretty busy for the whole place on each day.
-Dave
The hotel parking lot was another thing I noticed. The OGR crew stayed at the Best Western, which is five minutes away from the fairgrounds and very convenient. In years past, the place was jam-packed with cars on the nights of the meet. This time around there was ample parking at all times. I particularly noticed this at around 5:30 a.m. when I was out walking. Normally the lot would have been full at that time, but not this time around.
But none of this should be unexpected. Things change over time, and the York Meet is certainly not immune to these changes as the hobby itself evolves and changes.
The prices of the rooms closer to the fairgrounds were still higher that week. We stayed at the same"Chain" hotel in Lancaster for $50 less a night than it would have cost at York.
I wnt on Friday and since my last visit in 2003 the aisles are wider and you don't have the traffic jams in the aisles anymore. The internet did take a toll on York also.
Allan, my wife and I were both registered but a family medical issue caused us both to be nonattendees.
As for not being able to diiferentiate betwewen registrants and actual attendees, I disagree since in this day of computerization it's actually quite simple and inexpensive to do just that. All that's needed to put such a system in place would be that each registant's badge be imprinted with a barcode which could be scanned when attendees enter and exit halls. That would give a very accurate count and cost of equipment would not be prohibitive at all. I've attended nontrain shows where a similar scanning system was in place that utilized barcoded wrist bands instead of badges and you could get an accurate count at any given time of who was in which hall. This was especially useful in dealing with local fire marshalls over concerns of attendance exceeding maximum allowed occupancy for the venue. Also the barcode could readily differentiate between table holders/sellers and their designees and non dealer participants
Kenn
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
There is no doubt in my mind--and I look for this sort of thing at each York Meet I attend--that there were significantly fewer actual participants at the meet than at any prior York Meet I have attended.
There's no way for the actual on-site attendance to be accurately determined, of course, but all one had to do was walk around the grounds and through the halls on Thursday and Friday to get a feel for the number of people and cars (and RVs) there.
Like others, I, too, have registered for the meet in the past but not actually attended for one reason or another. Some probably take similar advantage of the low registration fee just to hedge their bets in the event they change their minds at the last minute, or they may have circumstances in their lives change that permit them to attend or preclude them from attending.
Originally Posted by ogaugeguy:
As for not being able to diiferentiate betwewen registrants and actual attendees, I disagree since in this day of computerization it's actually quite simple and inexpensive to do just that. All that's needed to put such a system in place would be that each registant's badge be imprinted with a barcode which could be scanned when attendees enter and exit halls.
Oh, I'm sure it could be done, if one was willing to go to the expense and bother (remember that people go into and out of multiple halls many times in the same day). I must go into and out of the Orange Hall alone, via different entrances, at least a dozen times or more on any one day of the meet, and I also visit most all of the other halls.
But what's the point? Who really cares what the actual on-site attendance is? So long as paid registrations continue coming in at a reasonable level, what difference does it make to the conduct of the meet if an individual shows up or not? I can say that based on my own observations over a good many York Meets and a good span of time, attendance is down. I really don't need any actual through-the-door count to verify that for me, and I doubt the Eastern Div. folks have either the need or desire to spend money on some/many sophisticated electronic gizmos to count heads and to sort out the many thousands of repeat entry and exiting of every participant.
Originally Posted by ogaugeguy:
As for not being able to diiferentiate betwewen registrants and actual attendees, I disagree since in this day of computerization it's actually quite simple and inexpensive to do just that. All that's needed to put such a system in place would be that each registant's badge be imprinted with a barcode which could be scanned when attendees enter and exit halls. That would give a very accurate count and cost of equipment would not be prohibitive at all. I've attended nontrain shows where a similar scanning system was in place that utilized barcoded wrist bands instead of badges and you could get an accurate count at any given time of who was in which hall. This was especially useful in dealing with local fire marshalls over concerns of attendance exceeding maximum allowed occupancy for the venue. Also the barcode could readily differentiate between table holders/sellers and their designees and non dealer participants
Kenn
Barcoded wrist bands and readers on all the doors on 7 or 8 halls?
Not expensive? How much money do you consider to be "not prohibitive at all?" What purpose would it serve? It would be a total waste of money. Besides I don't want a barcoded anything on me and I don't care for anyone to know what hall I'm in or how many times I've gone in or out.
All this would do is add cost and create busywork and statistics that don't matter.
Why is it necessary to "readily differentiate between table holders/sellers and their designees and non dealer participants" once the meet starts?
Walk the halls, enjoy the trains and have fun.
Folks, my posts were to show there is indeed a way "for the actual on-site attendance to be accurately determined" and is not an endorsement of tracking York participants.
As for a barcoded system, the cost would actually be relatively low with the proliferation of today of consumer barcode readers. Handheld barcode readers have reached the pricepoint where they are used by consumers to help inventory and keep track of personal collections of DVD's, CD's and records, books, etc..
Whether or not such an accoungting and tracking system is desireable is another matter altogether.
Regarding differentiating between those in the seller's hall and non selling attendees, that would only be a consideration if your primary interest was whether a person attends York to buy and spend money and OR sell and make money.
Originally Posted by ogaugeguy:
Regarding differentiating between those in the seller's hall and non selling attendees, that would only be a consideration if your primary interest was whether a person attends York to buy and spend money and OR sell and make money.
Most are there to do a little of both.
Again, I suspect the TCA Eastern Div. is satisfied that the system they have in place already works well enough for their purposes. I strongly doubt you will see any changes made in that regard.
I concur with both of your assumptions, Allan. Also I feel that from what York attendees who've posted to this forum have written that The Eastern Division TCA is fulfilling it's self imposed goals for what York is meant to be. It's unfair to expect that York or another other meet be the panacea for the dewindling interest in toy trains among today's general population. We must not lose sight and always be cognizant it's in the best interest of all us train hobbyists that we individually act as ambassadors for this great hobby and daily do what we can to promote and introduce it to the general populace. IMHO, if we hope to reverse the public's declining ehthusiam and interest in this hobby and foster it's growth then there needs to be a 1:1 grassroots effort by all of us to change the public's perception of toy train hobbyists and the hobby itself. It's unfair to shift that responsibility to any one group or groups who organize train shows.
Kenn
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
Originally Posted by ogaugeguy:
Regarding differentiating between those in the seller's hall and non selling attendees, that would only be a consideration if your primary interest was whether a person attends York to buy and spend money and OR sell and make money.
Most are there to do a little of both.
Again, I suspect the TCA Eastern Div. is satisfied that the system they have in place already works well enough for their purposes. I strongly doubt you will see any changes made in that regard.
I guess all this worry about expanding our "electric train" hobby is centered around buying "new stuff", and ensuring that new stuff is always available. My other hobbies are centered around buying "old stuff", and the less people looking to buy it, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
Kenn:
Very well put, and I agree with you 100%!
This continuing preoccupation with making the York Meet something it was never intended to be is somewhat perplexing. ALL of us want to see the hobby grow in terms of participation, and there are many individuals and groups--some right here on this forum--working to do that. Just imagine what could result if each of the registered participants on this forum dedicated themselves to getting just one O gauge hobbyist (or any other scale for that matter) each year--just one! The rewards to the hobby as a whole would be great indeed.
Very true Joe, I seen some excellent deals at York on Pre War, Much less than I paid for some of mine years ago. My Pre and Post War collection is about at it's peak and I'll only buy to upgrade due to space but I do operate the new stuff and sometimes pull a Pre or Post War off the shelf for a occasional tripper.
Sounds like several of us, myself included, registered but did not go. Maybe its a sign of the economy that is not getting better.
Rob
But Rob, the recovery has been in full swing for, what, five years? ... sorry you missed it. 
My prediction: Attendance will continue to gradually taper off. It is inevitable and irreversible.
It will be up to the Eastern Division to seek out ways to compensate for declining participation (sellers and members in general), but there really is no viable way to get back to attendance figures like those seen in the mid-90s and into the early years of the current century.
My life plan is to continue to make it to every York as long as I am physically able to do so. My wife in hand and whichever of our children or grandchildren that want to go with us.
Everything in life has cycles, no denying that. If they day comes where it is just all in one hall I will be there.
Everything in life has cycles, no denying that. If they day comes where it is just all in one hall I will be there.
Considering the dying-off of the "collector generation" (of which I'm a member), and shopping and communicating via the Internet, I think the attendance numbers are impressive.
In light of another hobby of mine, the annual convention of the National Stereoscopic Assoc.(3-D photography), which had a "York-like" trade fair, drew 800+ people 15 years ago. Now it's more like 200.
Originally Posted by Jeff Metz:
My life plan is to continue to make it to every York...
I can't say that I'll be attending every York Meet--more likely once a year in most cases--but I sure do plan to attend as many as I can between now and the time I am planted. All have been fun, informative, productive, and meaningful events.
I'll probably buy a ticket to the fall York but with the 11 furlough days and several unplanned purchases due to the LHS shutting down I am not sure i'll have the extra money for York this fall
I, too, expect to register, but it's not likely that I will be able to attend. That may change as the date draws closer, but I will just have to see what develops. I always enjoy the time spent at York and the welcome break it provides.
If you don't go Allan, I'm not going.
Eddie, my friend, I know perfectly well you'll be there come H*** or high water!
Whether Allan goes or not, I'll be there.
Can't miss it -- though it's hard to leave Cali for ten days in October.... 
