Baffled with Menards power adaptors and buildings

It’s DC and it matters. Plus and minus...matters. AC doesn’t matter, sort of...

@Paul Kallus posted:

..Voltage registered around 0.86 volts, not even close to the 4.5 volts...

That is a sign that the power supply was working into a dead short.

If this is DC power and you reversed the leads, you could have damaged the lighting circuit in the building. Or there may be a fuse in the building itself that has blown.

DC is very different from AC in that the polarity MUST be correct or bad things happen.

Roger that, I believe they are DC adaptors.

What this means is that the building plug that I swapped out for the original plug, but nevertheless both were from Menards, was NOT wired the same way as the original, since I initially connected the dashed wire to dashed wire and dotted wire to dotted wire.

As an aside, I've been testing all my Menards power adaptors...four of them put out > 8 volts, whereas the newer ones are putting out around 4.5 volts. I plan to retire the > 8 volt adaptors.

Do not run household 120 volt power under your layout.  Get AC-DC buck converters and set them for 4.5 VDC output.  Run the AC side of the buck converter off the 14VAC outlet on your transformer.  This is safer than running 120 VAC, cheaper and dependable.

Bruce

Most Menards structures have two power receptacles, one usually located under the building, which can easily hide a 3/4" hole to slip the barrel plug through w/o having to cut the wire.

I have never cut one of their cords, i just drill a hole large enough to fit the plug through.  Of all the Menards item i have, buildings and vehicles,  all the cords are really not visible.  I currently have 3 of their power adapters and various extension  cords powering everything.

Even though they're under the structures, experience has taught me to keep holes to a minimum in size on the layout...and so I drill 1/8" for the wires vs. 1/2" or greater needed for the barrel plug. Given that I've moved buildings around in urban and industrial re-development projects, I am glad I did as patching 1/8" holes is a heck of a lot easier than 1/2" holes.

@bruce benzie posted:

Do not run household 120 volt power under your layout.  Get AC-DC buck converters and set them for 4.5 VDC output.  Run the AC side of the buck converter off the 14VAC outlet on your transformer.  This is safer than running 120 VAC, cheaper and dependable.

Bruce

I use a sizeable AC to DC  buck converter set to 4.5 VDC and power it from about 16 VAC from the transformer as you say.  I run the 4.5 VDC around the layout. I use those easily installed barrel connectors on the end of a wire pushed thru a small hole. The are marked with + being the center pin.

Accessory power supply is a can of worms.  One of the Fort Pitt Highrailer modules, was an interesting effort that combined a lot of different animated/lighted pieces.  With a lot of different power supplies.

Accessory Power supply is a can of worms.   Power(110 volt) was supplied through a portable Ground Fault interrupter, multi-outlet, end of cord, add on piece.

Accessory voltage ranged from 3 volts/AC or DC, to 18/24 volts volts AC/DC.   

IMO Menards accessories only add to an already confusing array of power items. IMO  Mike CT.

The Menards buildings are using LEDs for lighting.  The diodes only let current flow in one direction.  I was wiring up a tunnel using LEDs and it took me a while to figure out why they wouldn’t light up.

Timely topic as I was considering the purchase of inexpensive male connector pigtails for use in creating longer runs vs. buying pre-made extensions:

https://www.monoprice.com/prod...p;seq=1&format=2

I have yet to construct my spare bedroom layout but I have picked up some Menard's plug and play accessories in advance when they run the "get one free" specials. Knowing little about LEDs, I didn't figure that polarity mattered but I guess I know that now. Since all the accessories have female connectors, I figured each accessory would connect to a male connector pigtail connected to inexpensive speaker wire run back to a terminal block and that the latter would connect to a sufficient DC transformer. Between vehicles and a few buildings, I'm guessing I'd have 15-20 on the layout. Which leaves me with two questions:

1. Does the above plan seem sound?

2. Does anyone know the size of the male connectors for the Manard's stuff?  The Monoprice pigtails have an inner diameter of 2.1mm and outer diameter of 5.5mm.

3. What DC power source would you recommend for powering 15-20 lighted accessories?

Thanks!

If all you need to do is lengthen the wire from the barrel connector that gets plugged into the Menards building to the 4.5 vdc wall wart, rather than struggle with figuring out which plugs/connectors work and whether they are wired correctly, etc., why not just splice a new piece of wire in of the appropriate length by, a) cutting the Menards white wire in half; b) attaching a new piece of dbl. stranded 16-20 gauge wire to the end of the wire coming from the barrel plug by stripping all 4 ends and connecting with butt crimps; c) plugging the barrel connector into the structure and then running the now very long wires through a small hole in the layout; and d) connecting the other end of the long spliced wires to the ends of the wire connected to the wall wart with 4 more butt crimps.

You just need to be careful to connect the pos Menards wires to each other and the negs to each other. Typically, the textures of the wires are different or they are marked with symbols or ribbed versus smooth, etc. to make it easy.

It also helps if the new splice wire is marked for pos and neg or colored differently, like black and red. That way, for example, you can connect the red wire to the ribbed Menards wire and black to the smooth Menards wire.

@cjack posted:

I use a sizeable AC to DC  buck converter set to 4.5 VDC and power it from about 16 VAC from the transformer as you say.  I run the 4.5 VDC around the layout. I use those easily installed barrel connectors on the end of a wire pushed thru a small hole. The are marked with + being the center pin.

Chuck,

1. Is + to center pin correct for Menards barrel connectors ?

2. I've looked at various AC/DC buck converters on the web and none seem to have the DC output marked for + or -. Is there a way to tell which is which ?

Thanks

1. Yes

2. They’re marked. Probably hard to see in the pictures. Might be hidden by the connector being in the way in the picture. I’m not sure how you could measure it without a meter...Harbor Freight has a good one for the least amount of money.

I have a good DVM - just surprised I couldn't make it out in the pic's, but the marks may show up on the actual product.

Thanks

I suspect the folks at Menard’s fix-it-as-it-arrives Stores were sampling some of the real Sprecher’s product while designing their plugs.....

@Richie C. posted:

I have a good DVM - just surprised I couldn't make it out in the pic's, but the marks may show up on the actual product.

Thanks

I have 2 different types of bucks, both are marked on the bottom.

A word of caution, one of my buck converters would get extremely hot. Not sure if it was faulty. The newer bucks worked fine in same application. 

There are many options to get your 4.5V DC to power Menards (and Miller Engineering signs). If you have access to an old computer desktop, the pwer supply can easily be modified to provide many amps at 4.5V (typically more than 25A). A search on the internet will show you many different methods; all you really need is a diode rated for the amperage in line with the 5V line.

@wmcwood posted:

I have 2 different types of bucks, both are marked on the bottom.

A word of caution, one of my buck converters would get extremely hot. Not sure if it was faulty. The newer bucks worked fine in same application.

I don't know if this was your specific issue, but buyer-beware when it comes to "buck" converters.  Above are examples from eBay and Amazon.  There are some semantic gymnastics where the descriptions walk the fine line of truth-in-advertising...but if you see a so-called "buck" converter with the terms "LM317" and/or "linear" in the description, I'd stand back and stand by...until you can confirm suitability for your application.  Just ask here if you have any concerns if a particular "buck" converter will work for you!   Measure twice, cut once - Ask twice, purchase once. 

Stan2004,

Thanks for the tip.  I purchased off of EBay a few years ago but they are still in the box.  I will look at the detail because LM317 sounds familiar.  I have not hooked them up -- so you may have saved me some heartbreak.

For me the buck converters just don’t make sense when I can buy a brand new 4.5 VDC power supply for under $10 from mean well, for about $25 I can get aversion with 40 amps capacity.  One will run the layout worth of items.  Plus it has barrier strip termination and fault and temp protection built in.  

in mi view much cleaner than distributing AC from a Tran transformer and using point of load buck converters.

@stan2004 posted:

I don't know if this was your specific issue, but buyer-beware when it comes to "buck" converters.  Above are examples from eBay and Amazon.  There are some semantic gymnastics where the descriptions walk the fine line of truth-in-advertising...but if you see a so-called "buck" converter with the terms "LM317" and/or "linear" in the description, I'd stand back and stand by...until you can confirm suitability for your application.  Just ask here if you have any concerns if a particular "buck" converter will work for you!   Measure twice, cut once - Ask twice, purchase once. 

Stan, thank you for the information. You are absolutely correct. They are LM317 based.

Rich, I agree with you for some structures. But ... the bucks work great for powering lights or sound on rolling stock. I also have buildings that have different power needs within, Miller signs, etc. So it’s easier to add a buck and still have a single plug power source. I made a power source mistake once, a single $3>4 buck would have saved me $30 to replace an overpowered board.

@James in VA posted:

...

1. Does the above plan seem sound?

2. Does anyone know the size of the male connectors for the Manard's stuff?  The Monoprice pigtails have an inner diameter of 2.1mm and outer diameter of 5.5mm.

3. What DC power source would you recommend for powering 15-20 lighted accessories?

Correct. 5.5mm OD, 2.1mm ID.  In addition to the male pigtail (pre-wired) connector you show, it comes in the female variety.  Or as shown earlier there are the screw-terminal adapters that also come in male or female variety.  All are widely available. In small quantities I think of them as 50 cents each shipped to your front door.  Here's an assortment of all types mentioned:

There is no one-size-fits-all answer for what DC power source.  Menards now publishes a power budget for many of their products (recycled photo):

So you can add up the different "mA" requirements.  But they are all over the map from buildings with only 2 LEDs to those with over 200 LEDs!  And of course there are many products for which there are no specific "mA" numbers (recycled photo):

For budgeting purposes, if a "mA" number is not provided, simply add up the approximate number of LEDs and multiply by 20.  In other words, if 10 LEDs, then budget 200 mA.  In practice it will be less than this but, again, for budgeting purposes.  As the photo above shows there are other electrical items in some Menards buildings such as motorized roof fans or "neon" signs/graphics.  But if you budget 20 mA per LED, there's margin to accommodate these.  There have been OGR discussions about these non-LED widgets and their power requirements but I think it's a distraction from coming up with a ballpark budget.

There have been dozens if not hundreds of OGR threads regarding Menards lighting.  The one topic which, in my opinion, is most overlooked when planning is the idea of adjustable brightness.  Of course this is because it's a to-each-his-own.  Sometimes it's to "match" brightness to a Woodland Scenics, Lemax, or other non-Menards building.  Some guys operate their Menards buildings at ~4.0V or even ~3.5V.  As to whether you adjust the DC voltage with the so-called "buck" regulator modules, or with diodes, or rheostats, or whatever is fair game for discussion.  The only takeaway I'm suggesting is the best time to plan for this is before you start groundbreaking!

What about  #4803 ( or in this case 2) of the Miller Engineering adapters with a distribution board.

1 will power up to 10 signs at 4.5v which is what Miller Signs operate at.

"Power Distribution board. If you have more
than 3 signs this is a helpful item that will
make your installation neater and will help
you keep track of your signs. It will run up
to 10 signs using our 4803 adapters. The
adapter plugs right in the power distribution
board - Easy!!"

Or, if you want to use power out of your transformer. The # 4804 converter module, but it only runs 6 signs at a time, so the O.P would need several.

"Replaces your battery pack. It will let you
run your signs of the accessory output of
your train transformer.  Accepts an input
voltage from 5 to 17 volts, AC or DC and
outputs the required 4.5 volts for our signs. Will run up to 6 signs. "                                    

@RickO posted:

What about  #4803 ( or in this case 2) of the Miller Engineering adapters with a distribution board.

1 will power up to 10 signs at 4.5v which is what Miller Signs operate at.

For budgeting purposes, Menards can be tricky because some buildings have only 2 LEDs while others have over 200 LEDs.  OTOH, per the Miller site, it's quite "simple"... signs draw 95 mA.

So let's just call it 100mA per sign... so 10 signs require 1000mA and, lo-and-behold, 1000mA is the rating of the #4803 4.5V DC output adapter!

Ignoring convenience of ordering and what not, I think $16.95 (MSRP) for a 4.5V DC, 1000 mA adapter is a bit high.  4.5V x 1000 mA = 4.5 Watts of output power.  That's almost $4 per Watt.

Here's a recycled OGR photo showing the Menards 4.5V DC adapters - I did not confirm current pricing:

Menards adapters are between ~80 cents and ~$1.60 per Watt.  For planning/budgeting purposes for a "typical" (I realize there is no "typical") train layout application, I target 10 cents to 20 cents per Watt for low-voltage raw Accessory (lighting) power.

The 40 Amp supply for $25 mentioned by rich883 above sounds about right.  4.5V x 40 Amps = 180 Watts.  So that's 14 cents per Watt.

Holy smokes, you guys have taken this discussion to the next level...and am glad you brought up Miller Engineering signs as I have a couple of them that I've only run from the battery clip but would like to power with adaptor. From Miller's website they sell adaptors that are listed as "4.5 VAC/DC", well which are they, AC or DC, and does it matter? I read that the signs draw 0.95 mamps.

Regarding the Menards adaptors, I am using them, but a word of advice, measure the voltage before and after applying load - I suppose measuring amps is even better. The Menards buildings have stated varying amperage draws that run from 250 mamps to 3,100 mamps, but I don't know how accurate their data is, in fact I don't think it is accurate as I've loaded varying structures with summed current draws to matching outputted adaptors with little success (allowing a 15% +- margin of error).

I have four older Menards adaptors that put out well over 8 volts, whereas they're rated for 4.5 VDC. If you "gang-up" multiple buildings on one of the 8+ volt adaptors, you can load it down until the voltage drops to the buildings' specs of 4.5 VDC, but this is a risky way to go and I don't recommend this method. I've made many requests to Menards Guest Services regarding clarification on using their older adaptors, and have never received a response. Previous forum discussions on "burned-out" buildings ostensibly revolved around using these older adaptors, but this is anecdotal.

Second, I've discovered that Lemax makes a nice 4.5 VDC power adaptor rated at 1,000 mamps, and it is advertised as a "switching power supply" which I take it be "regulated." Indeed, I've confirmed that the ones I own put out 4.5 VDC. I am now using a few of these to power the Menards buildings. I would think these would work well with the Miller signs, too?

The discussion on converters is all well and good, and I think I would need to see how these work in person, how to hookup, etc, before going that route. It would probably be one of those "Oh, Ah, Ah, now I understand" moments.

@Paul Kallus posted:

...

From Miller's website they sell adaptors that are listed as "4.5 VAC/DC", well which are they, AC or DC, and does it matter? I read that the signs draw 0.95 mamps.

In this context when Miller says AC/DC they mean AC-in, DC-out.  All the Miller power converters generate regulated 4.5V DC output. 

The signs draw 95 mA.  I assume this was just a typo but if adding up the various mA requirements of your signs, buildings, etc.. the decimal point position matters! 

...

Previous forum discussions on "burned-out" buildings ostensibly revolved around using these older adaptors, but this is anecdotal.

Yes anecdotal but with engineering cause-effect.  The older adapter were unregulated depending on what was hooked up could destroy the LEDs with excessive power.  I like to think that it was discussion here on OGR that pushed Menards to pull the older unregulated adapters from the shelves.  There was a gap of something like half a year to a year where Menards didn't sell adapters.  When the regulated adapters came out, I recall OGR members exchanged adapters for free.  Not sure they do this any more though.

Second, I've discovered that Lemax makes a nice 4.5 VDC power adaptor rated at 1,000 mamps, and it is advertised as a "switching power supply" which I take it be "regulated." Indeed, I've confirmed that the ones I own put out 4.5 VDC. I am now using a few of these to power the Menards buildings. I would think these would work well with the Miller signs, too?

Note that 4.5V DC is 3 x 1.5V batteries and Miller and others sell 3-cell battery holders to operate their products.  1.5V batteries are kind-of "regulated" from battery chemistry but a fresh set of 3x batteries can put out close to 5V DC.  And I suspect the vast majority of signs/buildings work, perhaps dimmed, down to maybe 3.5V as battery voltage droops.  In other words quite a range of voltage percentage wise.  This goes to the mind-set of what is meant by regulation.

The "buck" converters provide both the "regulation" function to keep the voltage within the safe operating range.  They additionally provide "adjustability" which can enhance your layout.  But sort of to your point, I'd say that the overwhelming majority of OGR layouts using Miller, Lemax, Menards, etc. use the manufacturer supplied AC/DC 4.5V DC-output wall outlet adapters.

More good info here.  In layman's terms, can anyone tell us approximately how many Menards buildings can safely be powered by one Miller #4804 that connects to a hobby transformer?  Obviously you would still have to buy the male plugs to attach to the #4804 in order to plug into the Menards buildings.  Thanks.

Depends on which Menards buildings you're talking about.  As mentioned earlier some Menards buildings have just 2 LEDs while others have over 200 LEDs! 

This is not layman's terms but I'll get to that in a second.  The 4804 can power 6 signs.  Miller says each sign requires 95 mA.  So the 4804 has a 4.5V DC regulated output capable of 6 x 95 mA = 570 mA.  Remember this number!

So in layman's terms you must inventory your Menards buildings to see how much each building requires in mA.  As I mentioned in a previous post, most currently listed Menards buildings provide this mA number.  If you have an earlier building that doesn't provide this mA number, then guess-timate the number of LEDs in the building and multiply by 20.  So if there's 10 LEDs, then call it a 10 x 20 = 200 mA building.

Add up all the mA for your buildings.  If it's less than 570 mA then go for it.  Otherwise you might need multiple 4804 converters where each one powers buildings that add up to less than 570 mA.

If you're willing to leave the Miller's "fold" and use a generic converter from eBay or Amazon, you can get a functionally equivalent converter that can provide double or even triple the mA of the 4804 for half the cost.  Just say the word!

So there seems to be an entrepreneur's opportunity here.  I've asked Menards several times to fill this void in the market.  There are a lot of conservative guys like me that just want a device that is guaranteed to power a few Menard's buildings using a 14 volt fixed voltage transformer (or equivalent) like we use to power everything else on our layouts.  Then there are the techs here that know how to build such a product and kindly advise about parts and pieces and using tools to measure outputs.  Why don't these techs offer a finished product at a reasonable price?  Cha ching.  Seems like a win-win to me.  I would rather pay than experiment and risk frying a Menard's building.  If it's easy to build and it only takes a few minutes of labor, shipping and handling, wouldn't it be a viable product to ship and sell to us where we both win?  What say you? 

@IRON HORSE posted:

So there seems to be an entrepreneur's opportunity here.  I've asked Menards several times to fill this void in the market.  There are a lot of conservative guys like me that just want a device that is guaranteed to power a few Menard's buildings using a 14 volt fixed voltage transformer (or equivalent) like we use to power everything else on our layouts.  Then there are the techs here that know how to build such a product and kindly advise about parts and pieces and using tools to measure outputs.  Why don't these techs offer a finished product at a reasonable price?  Cha ching.  Seems like a win-win to me.  I would rather pay than experiment and risk frying a Menard's building.  If it's easy to build and it only takes a few minutes of labor, shipping and handling, wouldn't it be a viable product to ship and sell to us where we both win?  What say you?

Iron Horse, I suggest you may want to think a bit more simply, instead of looking for converters to use you train transformer, just start with a separate 4.5 volt power supply.  You wire to multiple buildings and signs just like you do used g 14 volt AC, but driven form a separate supply.  No real trial and error, straightforward.

here is the unit I mentioned meanwell power

supplyhttps://www.jameco.com/z/LRS-200-5-MEAN-WELL-200W-5V-40A-Single-Output-Switchable-Power-Supply_2219719.html  the price was $27

with this, 40 amps at 4.5 volts you could run all but the largest layout from one supply.

the reason you don’t see people jumping at the product you want is that off the shelf commodity DC supplies are ubiquitous and cheap.  Really no market for custom converters.

Rich883,

I'm really close to understanding what you are saying and this link you gave:

supplyhttps://www.jameco.com/z/LRS-200-5-MEAN-WELL-200W-5V-40A-Single-Output-Switchable-Power-Supply_2219719.html  the price was $27

It appears there are a variety of screws you can run wires to.  I assume one is 5 volts that you can extend to Menards buildings on your layout.  My only question is, how is this thing powered?  Does it come with an AC plug to plug into a wall outlet?  If not, is that what is needed to add and make this work?  Is there inputs on the back to add a power cord?

I am truly sorry for my simplistic questions but I really need you to dumb it down so I can understand how this works?  And I REALLY appreciate your informed responses.

--Mike

It has screw terminals that you have to attach a line cord to. You can buy line cords with one end stripped wires ready to attach to the screws at stores like Menards.

Here’s a less expensive one that does about 3 amps good for a dozen or more buildings.

https://www.jameco.com/z/RS-15...19043.html?CID=MERCH

cjack,

NICE!  Thanks for the info.  I am going to buy at least two of them.  I have Menards buildings, Miller Engineering signs and a bunch of 5 volt switched audio speakers with disks to record sound effects I bought from England that all use this type of power.

As mentioned, the particular unit rich883 mentions has an adjustment knob so you can dial down the output voltage to as low as 4.5V DC.  You attach a 3-wire AC cord to 3 terminals as shown.  There are multiple DC output terminals.  You can't run 40 Amps through a single barrel connector so there would be many 2-wire output cables carrying 4.5V DC to your various buildings.

For less than $2 (shipped) you can attach a tiny 2-wire voltmeter to the DC output to initially set the output voltage to 4.5V... and then just leave it in place to monitor the output voltage.  For example here's a recycled OGR photo showing such a voltmeter ... in this case the AC-to-DC converter was powered by AC accessory voltage with DC output set to 4.5V DC so must have been for a Menards application!

@cjack posted:

It has screw terminals that you have to attach a line cord to. You can buy line cords with one end stripped wires ready to attach to the screws at stores like Menards.

Here’s a less expensive one that does about 3 amps good for a dozen or more buildings.

https://www.jameco.com/z/RS-15...19043.html?CID=MERCH

Note the model in the link is only specified to a lower limit of 4.75V.  Maybe that's a conservative spec and it can be dialed down lower.

The higher power unit identified by rich883 is specified to be adjustable down to 4.5V. 

Seems the guys gave some great explanation.  The supplies take 110 volts in and the 4.5 volts out.  I would run the 4.5 volt output of the supply to the barrier strips and then run wires to the buildings from the barrier strips.

Stan2004, Rich883 and cjack: Excellent!  Thanks.  Paul Kallus, thanks for posting this topic.  I didn't mean to hijack this topic but all of these folks helped clarify our options.  I guess this plug in device is the equivalent of using an old computer to capture the converter to power  Menards and other lights/signs/stuff.

Once again, these posts are vey helpful.  I do have another question more for understanding sake than for a need to know.  Stan, you mentioned LM317 and Linear as maybe a problem for certain applications.  What do those terms mean for our use/context?  Thanks, Bob