B&O National Limited - Consist Builders via Golden Gate Depot

FYI.
Slumbercoach reservations are closing July 10. B&O had 3 of these cars that ran on the National Limited which then continued on the MP Texas Eagle.  
Sometimes you have to build a consist one car at a time.
Cheers 😉

Hmmm, I mis-read your title, I thought that it was:

"B&O National Limited - Custom Builders or Golden Gate Depot"

Good point.  Understand.

But, beyond the appropriate through cars that are imminent for production, what then would be the complementary availability of the B&O non-through cars that would comprise the balance of an accurate replica of the National??  Haven't heard any talk/discussion involving GGD re a forthcoming posting for the National Limited.   Or did I miss something??

The well executed Columbian and Cincinnatian, the long-standing reservation posting for a late version of the Capitol Limited are all are good signs for National optimists.  But, come to think of it, wasn't the National once posted for reservations...only to be replaced with a posting for the Capitol Limited...which seems a tad constipated of late.

But, as Clara Peller once queried,..."Where's the beef?!"

Otherwise, those 1:48 through cars are going to be rather lonely when looking for the eastern extension of their journey...methinks.

So many requests.  So many opportunities.  So many rationales.

And, yet?....

Just wondering.

@dkdkrd posted:

Good point.  Understand.

But, beyond the appropriate through cars that are imminent for production, what then would be the complementary availability of the B&O non-through cars that would comprise the balance of an accurate replica of the National??  Haven't heard any talk/discussion involving GGD re a forthcoming posting for the National Limited.   Or did I miss something??

The well executed Columbian and Cincinnatian, the long-standing reservation posting for a late version of the Capitol Limited are all are good signs for National optimists.  But, come to think of it, wasn't the National once posted for reservations...only to be replaced with a posting for the Capitol Limited...which seems a tad constipated of late.

But, as Clara Peller once queried,..."Where's the beef?!"

Otherwise, those 1:48 through cars are going to be rather lonely when looking for the eastern extension of their journey...methinks.

So many requests.  So many opportunities.  So many rationales.

And, yet?....

Just wondering.

I guess my decision to try to build a “reasonable” National Ltd stems from its inter-connectivity in St. Louis with the MP Texas Eagle and that the B&O EA brought the NL into St. Louis Union Station. Ive picked up GGD heavyweight B&O baggage, RPO, 8-1-2 sleeper and a streamline sleeper for starters and The 3rd Rail EA (correct #) that came into St. Louis. I’ve GGD Eagle MP 14-4 and 5BR-lounge cars that ran east on the B&O out of St. Louis reserved. I will add GGD Tx Special and Meteor 14-4s that ran East as well as the B&O 14-4 that ran West out of St. Louis. By the way, the MP 5BR-lounge functioned as a B&O “ observation” car for a time - in MP paint with a B&O drumhead.  
Oops.  Forgot.  Also have a B&O Slumbercoach reserved  😬

It’s not perfect……but it will be a nice approximation - and as good as I can do so far.

The current Capital offering replaced the Royal Blue offering.  The National has not been offered to date.

Cheers 😉

@TrainBub posted:

I guess my decision to try to build a “reasonable” National Ltd stems from its inter-connectivity in St. Louis with the MP Texas Eagle and that the B&O EA brought the NL into St. Louis Union Station. Ive picked up GGD heavyweight B&O baggage and RPO and a streamline sleeper for starters and The 3rd Rail EA (correct #) that came into St. Louis. I’ve GGD Eagle MP 14-4 and 5BR-lounge cars that ran east on the B&O out of St. Louis reserved. I will add GGD Tx Special and Meteor 14-4s that ran East as well as the B&O 14-4 that ran West out of St. Louis. By the way, the MP 5BR-lounge functioned as a B&O “ observation” car for a time - in MP paint with a B&O drumhead.  
Oops.  Forgot.  Also have a B&O Slumbercoach reserved  😬

It’s not perfect……but it will be a nice approximation - and as good as I can do so far.

The current Capital offering replaced the Royal Blue offering.  The National has not been offered to date.

Cheers 😉

What are the chances that Golden Gate Depot will build the Capitol Limited?  It has been up for reservations for how long?  Something like 4 years?  Reservations must be really low.  Sad to say, but it seems likely that it gets cancelled.  The Amtrak trains and the GGD reissues seem to have done well lately, but the others are taking forever.  There are so many GGD passenger trains listed, it appears that others may be cancelled too, unfortunately.  I would expect the 1948 Broadway Limited reissue would be next to get built.  Has anyone checked with GGD?  I am not sure if they give reservation status information to the public.

@Jtrain posted:

What are the chances that Golden Gate Depot will build the Capitol Limited?  It has been up for reservations for how long?  Something like 4 years?  Reservations must be really low.  Sad to say, but it seems likely that it gets cancelled.  The Amtrak trains and the GGD reissues seem to have done well lately, but the others are taking forever.  There are so many GGD passenger trains listed, it appears that others may be cancelled too, unfortunately.  I would expect the 1948 Broadway Limited reissue would be next to get built.  Has anyone checked with GGD?  I am not sure if they give reservation status information to the public.

Scott Rarely !!! gives up on a project. “Keep the faith” on the Cap Ltd project. The needed numbers to finally launch the project can slowly creep up and without warning you get the “it’s a go” signal. Sometimes a small production gap appears and an “in-between” project is needed - perhaps this is why we finally got the run 2 Slumber Coach. Either way works.  

Consider Starting a Cap Ltd forum thread to try to build some more interest !!! You might attract a few more persons to step up and add some reservation #s. It won’t hurt and you get to meet some like-minded people.

Cheers 😉

Back in March 2023 I corresponded with Scott, asking what his current best guess, no-guarantee estimate was for when the B&O Capitol Limited might go into production. His guestimate was end of 2023, early 2024. This set, along with the B&O EMD E7's to pull it are at the top of my most desired passenger train list. I am eagerly anticipating its arrival. Let's pile on the reservations so this happens as soon as practical!

What is the way to determine most authoritatively a prototypical consist and order of cars for the Capitol Limited circa 1957? Maybe go through the B&O Historical Society or find a B&O timetable accurate to the era being modeled? Thanks.

@Norman R posted:

Back in March 2023 I corresponded with Scott, asking what his current best guess, no-guarantee estimate was for when the B&O Capitol Limited might go into production. His guestimate was end of 2023, early 2024. This set, along with the B&O EMD E7's to pull it are at the top of my most desired passenger train list. I am eagerly anticipating its arrival. Let's pile on the reservations so this happens as soon as practical!

What is the way to determine most authoritatively a prototypical consist and order of cars for the Capitol Limited circa 1957? Maybe go through the B&O Historical Society or find a B&O timetable accurate to the era being modeled? Thanks.

The timeframe Scott gave you should be Very Indicative that the Cap is Now in the Q  with a Strong position. The timing fits with the Eagle finishing production later this year. The Slumber Coach has also slipped into the production line-up.
It’s all about reservation #s. Climbing #s of another offering could trump the Cap Ltd. The Superliners for example could push the Cap till later if it’s reservations top the Cap Ltd. Or Scott could just decide it’s time to move the Cap along.
The E7 will be a beauty to pull your Cap. I got the 3rd Rail early version EA/EB to pull my piece-meal put together National Ltd.

I even managed to get a correctly #d engine that came into St. Louis Union Station.  

Here are two starter references that I’ve used for some of my B&O research. I’ve found one never works. No one reference book ever covers everything. You will have to pull the info together.

Don’t forget to reserved a B&O Slumber Coach. 2 named cars ran on the Cap. Reservations for the Slumberer Coaches now close July 15 !!!  

Cheers !!! 😉

Thrilled to see this interest in duplicating accurate B&O passenger consists. The 1950s were a period of rapid change, and as new streamlined cars were purchased or rebuilt from heavyweights, passenger train consists changed much. I know the 14-4s mentioned here were running on the Shenandoah by 1956.

@Ken Wing posted:

Thrilled to see this interest in duplicating accurate B&O passenger consists. The 1950s were a period of rapid change, and as new streamlined cars were purchased or rebuilt from heavyweights, passenger train consists changed much. I know the 14-4s mentioned here were running on the Shenandoah by 1956.

My Nat Ltd will be a decent build-out approximation. Those purchasing the Cap Ltd will have an Accurate consist of proper type cars with correct names. The Cap consist is quite eclectic as the B&O did not order everything at once and used different sources. Add in the other road cars - thru sleepers and you will have a Remarkable consist.
For my Nat Ltd, I will use the leased MP 5BR-Lounge (in Eagle paint) as it’s “observation car”. I will mount a B&O drumhead on the tail. This IS prototypical. I’ve a picture of this - I was quite surprised to find this. Building your own consist can be quite a bit of fun - and my build-out consist will be  
unique !!!! 😜

Cheers 😉

@TrainBub posted:

My Nat Ltd will be a decent build-out approximation. Those purchasing the Cap Ltd will have an Accurate consist of proper type cars with correct names. The Cap consist is quite eclectic as the B&O did not order everything at once and used different sources. Add in the other road cars - thru sleepers and you will have a Remarkable consist.
For my Nat Ltd, I will use the leased MP 5BR-Lounge (in Eagle paint) as it’s “observation car”. I will mount a B&O drumhead on the tail. This IS prototypical. I’ve a picture of this - I was quite surprised to find this. Building your own consist can be quite a bit of fun - and my build-out consist will be  
unique !!!! 😜

Cheers 😉

Yup, Santiago did this build up for his Exposition Flyer and I'm doing it for my Overland.  From Union Station build it yourself to Wasatch brass, very eclectic.

I for one would get the Amtrak version of the National Ltd.

@TrainBub posted:

The timeframe Scott gave you should be Very Indicative that the Cap is Now in the Q  with a Strong position. The timing fits with the Eagle finishing production later this year. The Slumber Coach has also slipped into the production line-up.
It’s all about reservation #s. Climbing #s of another offering could trump the Cap Ltd. The Superliners for example could push the Cap till later if it’s reservations top the Cap Ltd. Or Scott could just decide it’s time to move the Cap along.
The E7 will be a beauty to pull your Cap. I got the 3rd Rail early version EA/EB to pull my piece-meal put together National Ltd.

I even managed to get a correctly #d engine that came into St. Louis Union Station.  

Here are two starter references that I’ve used for some of my B&O research. I’ve found one never works. No one reference book ever covers everything. You will have to pull the info together.

Don’t forget to reserved a B&O Slumber Coach. 2 named cars ran on the Cap. Reservations for the Slumberer Coaches now close July 15 !!!  

Cheers !!! 😉

Thank you very much for the heads up on these two references. I have the book “Baltimore & Ohio’s Capitol Limited and National Limited” by Joe Welsh. It’s a good book, but as you indicate, its hard to get everything out of just one reference.

Yes, that B&O EA/EB is a beauty. You don’t need much more reason than that to want to build an accurate consist for it.

Well I may as well show my 2 of key National Ltd references.

This TRRA HS book is still in print - available from the HS.  It is my fav reference for the Nat Ltd.

Another good resource are the passenger train consist book reprints available from the B&ORRHS. As an example, here is the eastbound Cap. The original printing shows the train as of 10/20/1949; the notes update it to a later, but unknown date.

I've been trying to get Scott to do 6-6-4s for years but because they were pool cars and not part of any specific train he says they will not sell.  Slumbercoaches were not a part of any specific train either but... oh well.

@rdunniii posted:

I've been trying to get Scott to do 6-6-4s for years but because they were pool cars and not part of any specific train he says they will not sell.  Slumbercoaches were not a part of any specific train either but... oh well.

I guess this fits into your building an Overland consist. I read that there were 119 builds that were assigned into 8 Roads - SF, Erie, IC, RI, MP, CNW, UP, SP.
Hmmm. If Scott sells 15 models for each road that’s 120 models from one tooling. I think thats pretty good. 🤔🙂 My opinion anyway. Keep after him.  (I’d be in for MP and possibly IC and SP)
I recently proposed to Scott about doing a “missing car-or upgrade” run. I’ve found several cars missing from specific GGD consists and the 10-5 needs a redo and has quite a few roads waiting for it.
Combine your idea and mine Could add up to a decent # of cars with limited tooling - IMHO. Could the combination get 400 units with 4 toolings ? 500 from 5 ?  🤔🤔 Seems like the upside would be limited engineering, the downside a lot of different paint schemes.

Seems like this could be at least a nice “in between - fill in” project to have waiting in the wings. And these cars would be GREAT for us consist builders.  

Just a bit of Dreaming here. 🤔😉

Cheers 🙂

@rdunniii posted:

I've been trying to get Scott to do 6-6-4s for years but because they were pool cars and not part of any specific train he says they will not sell.  Slumbercoaches were not a part of any specific train either but... oh well.

Seems like a neat and unique car to me. Cannot say if they'd sell enough to justify tooling, but I think it would be a nice offering.

https://www.greenwoodrrmuseum....man-american-liberty

10-5s have already been done as they were a part of the '38 20th Century and Broadway.  They were called Cascade cars.  10-5s are just prewar 10-6s.

There are prewar 6-6-4s called the American series cars and postwar 6-4-6s called the National cars.  Similar but not the same.

@rdunniii posted:

10-5s have already been done as they were a part of the '38 20th Century and Broadway.  They were called Cascade cars.  10-5s are just prewar 10-6s.

If the tooling is still around, that’s great !!!!  For sure would make a “make-up” run of cars all the more easier / cost effective. If the tooling is gone, the engineering/ drawings at least should be around.

There are a number of quality reference books listed in this thread. Do they all agree on the number of Slumbercoaches run by the B&O, what their car numbers and car names were, and what trains they ran on? As mentioned above, oftentimes it takes multiple references to put together the answers to modelling questions.

For my part, I can offer this information from the book “Baltimore & Ohio’s and Capitol Limited and National Limited” by Joe Welsh:

On pages 102-103 it says that two Slumbercoaches were bought from Budd and assigned to the B&O Columbian in March 1958. Also, three other Slumbercoaches were leased from Budd and assigned to the National Limited in May 1959. Missouri Pacific leased a Slumbercoach from Budd in 1959. Together with the three B&O Slumbercoaches, it was the only through transcontinental Slumbercoach route in the country between Baltimore and San Antonio. This was accomplished through a connection at Saint Louis from the National Limited and the Missouri Pacific Texas Eagle. This service lasted until May 17, 1964.

So from the above, it seems like there were a total of five B&O Slumbercoaches, but this reference does not identify their car numbers, car names, or to which trains each car number and name was assigned to. What do the other references have to say on this subject? Thanks.

This Summer 2006 NHRS Bulletin provides much detail about slumber coaches and is a must read for you. https://www.train-museum.org/w...7/SlumberCoaches.pdf

While it provides car roster, and train names from two different Official Guides, it does not say which cars names were in which trains. A caption in Craig Bossler's B&O Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment agrees with the source you cited.

He says the B&O's first two purchased cars, Slumberland (7700) and Dreamland (7701) were used on the Columbian, while the three leased cars, Sleepland (7703), Thriftland (7704) and Restland (7704), were used on the National Limited. He prints two photos of Thriftland taken at St. Louis Station.

Forgot to mention, the MP car was called Southland, numbered 699, per the NHRS article, filling out the National cars.

@Ken Wing posted:

Forgot to mention, the MP car was called Southland, numbered 699, per the NHRS article, filling out the National cars.

Correct. Zoom in to see details. 😉

Cheers 👍

This also has a decent section on the MP (1 car) and B&O (3 cars) inter-line Slumber Coach cars that ran on the Eagle and National Ltd.

All 4 cars went to NP in 1964.

Amongst all the notes here , don’t forget the Slumber Coach reservations
CLOSE  JULY 15 !!!!!!!

Cheers 😉

@Ken Wing posted:

This Summer 2006 NHRS Bulletin provides much detail about slumber coaches and is a must read for you. https://www.train-museum.org/w...7/SlumberCoaches.pdf

While it provides car roster, and train names from two different Official Guides, it does not say which cars names were in which trains. A caption in Craig Bossler's B&O Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment agrees with the source you cited.

He says the B&O's first two purchased cars, Slumberland (7700) and Dreamland (7701) were used on the Columbian, while the three leased cars, Sleepland (7703), Thriftland (7704) and Restland (7704), were used on the National Limited. He prints two photos of Thriftland taken at St. Louis Station.

Thanks so much for these two great references with detailed information on car names, numbers, and what trains they served on. Sometimes it’s hard to come by primary source historical information that settles a specific question. It’s great to see these secondary sources correlating with each other and helping me understand what is truly authentic to the prototype.

Folks. Slumber Coach reservations ARE NOW Closed.
“Standby” reservations Only.                        If you missed the deadline but still want one, I Strongly Recommend placing a “standby” order. You might get lucky. I Rarely see these in the secondary market.
Cheers 😉

FYI B&O fans - the GGD web page section for the Capital Ltd shows “coming late 2023”.  Dates always seem to slide a bit later but this seems to indicate the intent that it will be see sooner than later.  
Cheers 😉

Well the Slumbercoaches should be arriving in 3 weeks or so with the Texas Eagle. Hope that’s accurate. 🤔
It would be nice for those receiving the 3 new cars to post pictures of them.
Last chance to get in a “standby reservation” Q approaches too.
Cheers😉

@TrainBub posted:

Well the Slumbercoaches should be arriving in 3 weeks or so with the Texas Eagle. Hope that’s accurate. 🤔
It would be nice for those receiving the 3 new cars to post pictures of them.
Last chance to get in a “standby reservation” Q approaches too.
Cheers😉

Be happy to post them once they come in. So excited Scott was able to get the Slumbercoaches made!

@rdunniii posted:

Yup, Santiago did this build up for his Exposition Flyer and I'm doing it for my Overland.  From Union Station build it yourself to Wasatch brass, very eclectic.

What have you pulled together for your Overland so far ???  Some pix please. 🤞
It’s Always Cool to see unique consists put together !!!

Cheers 😉

Below is a car that has been documented as running in the B&O National Limited as a through 14/4 car from the Frisco, running Oklahoma City - Jersey City.  I got it is as a partially built American Lightweight kit at a train show and finished at as Frisco's Cimarron River. Unable to find O scale red Frisco passenger decals, I made and printed them on my computer in 2018.   

Earlier (2006) I rebuilt a Kasiner 'junker' smoot- side observation of 1947 as B&O Genesee River for my O scale 2-rail National Limited. It was one of three the B&O bought from the NY Central for updating the National Limited in the mid-1950's.  N Y Central ran them on its Southwestern Limited between NY City and St. Louis. B&O ran them between Washington DC and St. Louis.

Also included in my National's consist, is a Budd 16 duplex roomette / 4 double bedroom "Bird" sleeper built from a Mac Shops kit in 1994, and a former lightweight Columbian diner 'Pittsburgh' from an American Standard kit in 1987. It also ran on the National after B&O bought two twin kitchen/dining room car sets from the NY Central for its upgraded Capitol Limited of the mid-1950's.

As you can see it took a while to gather and build these cars, as they were not available anywhere else at the time. All have interior details and the extruded aluminum body cars also have LED lighting. 

S. Islander

@S. Islander posted:

Below is a car that has been documented as running in the B&O National Limited as a through 14/4 car from the Frisco, running Oklahoma City - Jersey City.  I got it is as a partially built American Lightweight kit at a train show and finished at as Frisco's Cimarron River. Unable to find O scale red Frisco passenger decals, I made and printed them on my computer in 2018.   

Earlier (2006) I rebuilt a Kasiner 'junker' smoot- side observation of 1947 as B&O Genesee River for my O scale 2-rail National Limited. It was one of three the B&O bought from the NY Central for updating the National Limited in the mid-1950's.  N Y Central ran them on its Southwestern Limited between NY City and St. Louis. B&O ran them between Washington DC and St. Louis.

Also included in my National's consist, is a Budd 16 duplex roomette / 4 double bedroom "Bird" sleeper built from a Mac Shops kit in 1994, and a former lightweight Columbian diner 'Pittsburgh' from an American Standard kit in 1987. It also ran on the National after B&O bought two twin kitchen/dining room car sets from the NY Central for its upgraded Capitol Limited of the mid-1950's.

As you can see it took a while to gather and build these cars, as they were not available anywhere else at the time. All have interior details and the extruded aluminum body cars also have LED lighting.

S. Islander

What a wonderful One-at a-time consist build !!!!!!!!!! Quite an inspiration for me in building My National Ltd. 👍  I’ll have to look More Closely at the GGD Capital “extra” offerings and see what I might “allow” to be “reassigned” to the Nat. 🤔    
I hope you reserved an “extra” GGD Eagle car or two to add to your Nat. There can be also be some proper adds when the GGD Meteor and Tx Special are done.

I have an American Lightweight kit for a 1940 10 roomette 5 double BR "Cascade" type sleeper with the body done.  It remains unfinished (for now).  It could be completed as a Missouri Pacific car, a B&O car in MP livery, or even in B&O livery and lettering.  Finding correct MP lettering I would like for it is not easy.

@S. Islander posted:

I have an American Lightweight kit for a 1940 10 roomette 5 double BR "Cascade" type sleeper with the body done.  It remains unfinished (for now).  It could be completed as a Missouri Pacific car, a B&O car in MP livery, or even in B&O livery and lettering.  Finding correct MP lettering I would like for it is not easy.

A B&O 10-5 in MP livery is part of some “unfinished” GGD MP Texas Eagle “business”. I hope to see it done ……….

Meanwhile, I’ve ordered a vestibule gate from Scale City and a NL drumhead from Tomar for my B&O leased soon to arrive GGD MP 5BR-lounge (in Eagle colors).  Doing what I can for my Nat Ltd. consist. 😉

Well the Capital Ltd is moving along. Scotts posted first pass “drawings” on the GGD web page. Looking Good !!!!!!!