@geepboy posted:OK, so I found a 180 watt brick on Amazon and bought it for $228. Is that OK?
Dan
Charles Ro sells them for $179.95, plus tax and $10 shipping, and has them in stock.
Trainworld has them for $179.99, plus tax and $12.99 shipping, and has them in stock.
Edit to add: In my experience Amazon is typically more expensive than local hobby shops that have competitive prices, such as Charles Ro and Trainworld.
@geepboy posted:You raise a fair point...
BUT...
where do I find a Legacy controller? Apparently it's discontinued and the ones on ebay are north of $1000 - that's a NOGO.
So, ball in your court - what do you recommend? Be gentle.
Dan
In addition to the price of some controllers, another factor to consider is future availability of parts and repairs for units which are no longer being made. I don't recall seeing you indicating a preference for dedicated remote vs. phone/tablet - if you don't mind using a tablet or phone, it opens up more options.
Although everything is vaporware at the moment, I'm in the Base3 camp.
@geepboy posted:OK, so I found a 180 watt brick on Amazon and bought it for $228. Is that OK?
Dan
$122 used on the big auction site, or $179 new. $228 is highway robbery. You should either cancel or return the one from Amazon.
I saw mention of a new app being released when the Cab3 comes out earlier in this thread. Is that going to replace the current free app that's available now?
I have a LC+ 2.0 engine that I'd really like to unlock those radio chatter sounds but the basic app doesn't allow for that. If a new app has it that would be great without having to expand to a new system. I emailed Lionel that query a few months back and they had no idea. 
My understanding is that there will be a new app when the Base 3 is available. Let's call it the Cab 3 app 
. I think that's what Lionel will call it, but I may have misremembered.
@Matt_GNo27 posted:Charles Ro sells them for $179.95, plus tax and $10 shipping, and has them in stock.
Trainworld has them for $179.99, plus tax and $12.99 shipping, and has them in stock.
Edit to add: In my experience Amazon is typically more expensive than local hobby shops that have competitive prices, such as Charles Ro and Trainworld.
For O-gauge items, I agree regarding Amazon's prices often being high. Decent pricing can sometimes be found on HO and N stuff, but care must be exercised.
It's always a good idea to check the various forum sponsors such at Trainworld, Ro, Pat's, Mario's, etc. before buying elsewhere.
@Magicland posted:$122 used on the big auction site, or $179 new. $228 is highway robbery. You should either cancel or return the one from Amazon.
Completely agree - cancel or return it!
@geepboy posted:OK, so I found a 180 watt brick on Amazon and bought it for $228. Is that OK?
Dan
Dan, I find it curious why your first concern is what control system to purchase. I think most first consider about how much room we have for a layout, if any, and then what sort of trains and locomotives we like along with a type of track. Power and control follow for the layout size and if we even need remote control.
Picking a control system first only boxes you into a corner not to mention spending more than required especially at the point the hobby is at now.
99% of all 3 rail locomotives made going back to the ‘20s until now will run off a transformer, just not on the same track at the same time.
Pete
@Lou1985 posted:TMCC Command Base and Cab-1 controller can be had for $300 or less. You can run Legacy/TMCC/Lionchief Plus 2.0 locomotives with it.
This brings up a question I have, since I'm in the same boat. Building a new layout, new control systems are not out yet, and not going to spend more than $1k for a legacy controller.
A TMCC command base will run newer Lionel engines as well? Just not all the features will work? If so, sounds like a good temporary solution until Cab3 is available.
"A TMCC command base will run newer Lionel engines as well? "
A TMCC command base and cab-1 remote will operate all TMCC, Legacy, and LionChief + 2.0 locos made in the past or in the current product line. Some specialized Legacy features may not be accessible, but all basic functions will work. LionChief and LionChief + locos will NOT be addressable by TMCC, and these LC/LC + locos from sets and separate sale require the individual remote that comes with the loco, the Universal Remote, or, for Bluetooth equipped locos, the free LionChief app to operate.
@Landsteiner posted:"A TMCC command base will run newer Lionel engines as well? "
A TMCC command base and cab-1 remote will operate all TMCC, Legacy,LionChief + and LionChief + 2.0 locos made in the past or in the current product line. Some specialized Legacy features may not be accessible, but all basic functions will work. LionChief locos will NOT be addressable, and these locos from sets and separate sale require the individual remote that comes with the loco, the Universal Remote, or, for Bluetooth equipped locos, the free LionChief app to operate.
A mis-statement, TMCC will not run LC+, they only run with their remote or in conventional mode. LC+ 2.0 is the version that added TMCC functionality.
Oops, edited to eliminate LionChief+ from the TMCC operable locos. They are like LionChief, where they operate well in command mode on a TMCC (or DCS) layout, provided you have the LionChief/LC + loco-specific remote, the Universal Remote or the LionChief app. LionChief and LionChief + locos will not respond to commands from the cab-1/TMCC command base, to be clear.
@Norton posted:Dan, I find it curious why your first concern is what control system to purchase. I think most first consider about how much room we have for a layout, if any, and then what sort of trains and locomotives we like along with a type of track. Power and control follow for the layout size and if we even need remote control.
Picking a control system first only boxes you into a corner not to mention spending more than required especially at the point the hobby is at now.
99% of all 3 rail locomotives made going back to the ‘20s until now will run off a transformer, just not on the same track at the same time.
Pete
Actually, it makes perfect sense, especially considering the lack of control systems on the current market. As the OP has already stated that they DON'T wish to run conventional, that wouldn't even be up for consideration.
@Landsteiner posted:"A TMCC command base will run newer Lionel engines as well? "
A TMCC command base and cab-1 remote will operate all TMCC, Legacy, and LionChief + 2.0 locos made in the past or in the current product line. Some specialized Legacy features may not be accessible, but all basic functions will work. LionChief and LionChief + locos will NOT be addressable by TMCC, and these LC/LC + locos from sets and separate sale require the individual remote that comes with the loco, the Universal Remote, or, for Bluetooth equipped locos, the free LionChief app to operate.
Thank you!! Exactly what I needed to hear. And hoped to hear. Thanks John as well for clarifying.
@Magicland posted:$122 used on the big auction site, or $179 new. $228 is highway robbery. You should either cancel or return the one from Amazon.
I can't. It's already shipped. Lesson learned - my bad.
Dan
@Magicland posted:Actually, it makes perfect sense, especially considering the lack of control systems on the current market. As the OP has already stated that they DON'T wish to run conventional, that wouldn't even be up for consideration.
He doesn’t even own a train now. How would he know that? You have a couple of loops of track on a 4x8 table how different do the trains run from a transformer handle vs a knob on a handheld. Folks are suggesting thousand dollar transformers and 500 dollar plus controllers. For that money you could fill the table with track, structures and a couple of trains assuming they didn’t have to be brand new.
Sounds like Dan is already experiencing the smallest bang for the buck based on some suggestions here.
Pete
OK, so where am I now?
I have:
1) An 180 watt power brick,
2) Enough Fastrack for a simple loop with one siding.
I need:
1) A tablet to run the LC App. I was going to buy an Apple iPad Mini anyway so that should work.
2) A Lionchief Plus 2.0 AND/OR a Legacy model with Bluetooth loco or two.
3) The Lioncchief App.
4) Maybe an Universal Controller - not sure about this.
5) Other hardware like wire and plugs and etc. I know I can get help here if needed, Y'all have so wonderful in helping me get back into O gauge.
How's that?
Please stop bringing up conventional mode - it's a total non-starter.
Dan
@Magicland posted:Actually, it makes perfect sense, especially considering the lack of control systems on the current market. As the OP has already stated that they DON'T wish to run conventional, that wouldn't even. be up for consideration.
I did not realize the OP did not wish to run conventional. Seems if he has no equipment or O gauge layout experience, the most inexpensive way to start would be older used equipment and build out from there. I may have this wrong about the OP and his experience and/or equipment, maybe he could clarify
If a friend or a neighbor saw my trains and became interested. I would strongly suggest starting out with less than an evolving command market.
Ok geepboy I'm sorry I did not see your post before posting.
@Fast Mail posted:Ok geepboy I'm sorry I did not see your post before posting.
No harm - no foul.
I started out at age 9 with a Lionel O-27 2020 PA steam turbine set which carried me through early teens. Dropped out of the hobby for about 30 years. Got back in with the European Train Enthusiasts. We have an HO scale modular layout that we take to various train shows. It features the Märklin track and power system which is 3-rail AC just like Lionel. We run mostly digital. I have decades of experience running trains like this or through a Wi-Fi connected tablet to the controller.
Bottom line - all of this is not new to me. But now, because of my eyesight and arthritic hands I want/need to go bigger - hence - full circle - I'm back to OGauge but no more conventional running. I am totally hooked on digital command control and If I can get that control through the air from my hand to the loco - so much the better.
Please keep helping - I'll need it.
Dan
Get the Bluetooth loco, load the LionChief App from the app store onto your iPad, and start having fun.
@geepboy posted:No harm - no foul.
I started out at age 9 with a Lionel O-27 2020 PA steam turbine set which carried me through early teens. Dropped out of the hobby for about 30 years. Got back in with the European Train Enthusiasts. We have an HO scale modular layout that we take to various train shows. It features the Märklin track and power system which is 3-rail AC just like Lionel. We run mostly digital. I have decades of experience running trains like this or through a Wi-Fi connected tablet to the controller.
Bottom line - all of this is not new to me. But now, because of my eyesight and arthritic hands I want/need to go bigger - hence - full circle - I'm back to OGauge but no more conventional running. I am totally hooked on digital command control and If I can get that control through the air from my hand to the loco - so much the better.
Please keep helping - I'll need it.
Dan
Have you heard of or considered Blunami. DCC over the air. Your phone or tablet is your controller. About the biggest bang per buck out there. On paper may match Legacy for add on features but most you would have to add yourself. O scale electronics have just hit the market. Stay tuned as more and more running examples show up.
Pete
@Norton posted:Have you heard of or considered Blunami. DCC over the air. Your phone or tablet is your controller. About the biggest bang per buck out there. On paper may match Legacy for add on features but most you would have to add yourself. O scale electronics have just hit the market. Stay tuned as more and more running examples show up.
Pete
I have considered it - for now I'll pass - but will keep an eye open.
Thanks for the tip.
Dan
@geepboy posted:I can't. It's already shipped. Lesson learned - my bad.
Dan
Returns to Amazon are easy. Just tell them you want to return it because you found a better price, drop it off at the nearest Kohls, doesn’t even have to be packed.
@Magicland posted:Returns to Amazon are easy. Just tell them you want to return it because you found a better price, drop it off at the nearest Kohls, doesn’t even have to be packed.
I've done that in the past.
I'll do it again.
Now where was it cheaper again?
Dan
Just bought it on Trainworld.
Will return the Amazon when it arrives.
Dan
Asking the group.... Does the 180 Watt supply come with a way to direct connect it to the track?
"Asking the group.... Does the 180 Watt supply come with a way to direct connect it to the track?"
No, Lionel is expecting the consumer to connect it to a Powermaster or a command lockon they make, so if you don't want to use one of those, you'll have to create a harness to connect to the track.
@geepboy posted:OK, so where am I now?
I need:
1) A tablet to run the LC App. I was going to buy an Apple iPad Mini anyway so that should work.
2) A Lionchief Plus 2.0 AND/OR a Legacy model with Bluetooth loco or two.
3) The Lioncchief App.
4) Maybe an Universal Controller - not sure about this.
Dan, I would recommend the Universal remote, which Trainworld has for $45, which I find to be a more pleasant experience than using the app.
You might also consider LionChief Plus lomotives on the second-hand market, even those that don't have BT capability (use the included remote or the universal remote or if you prefer the app, tether to your iPad through the Universal Remote).
Well, I did it. I ordered a BURLINGTON NORTHERN SWI LEGACY #97 from Charlesro.
So now I wait for the loco and my new iPad Mini to arrive and we'll go from there.
Watch this space.
Again, thanks for all your help.
Dan
After reading these posts it’s obvious that Lionel and MTH have made it very difficult for newcomers the enter the 3 rail hobby.
@romiller49 posted:After reading these posts it’s obvious that Lionel and MTH have made it very difficult for newcomers the enter the 3 rail hobby.
We have multiple threads on this every week. Make it open source already and just sell trains.
John
One thing that might be escaping everyone: Every train by Lionel, or MTH, or Weaver, or Sunset, will run in conventional mode as long as there is no command base, TIU, or other type of command system hooked up.
The only exception to this is the first Lionchief, before the plus (+) was added.
If you want to run in conventional mode, by using the transformer handle, you can run any trains, just like running postwar or prewar trains.
@RoyBoy posted:One thing that might be escaping everyone: Every train by Lionel, or MTH, or Weaver, or Sunset, will run in conventional mode as long as there is no command base, TIU, or other type of command system hooked up.
The only exception to this is the first Lionchief, before the plus (+) was added.
If you want to run in conventional mode, by using the transformer handle, you can run any trains, just like running postwar or prewar trains.
Pretty sure people dropping this kind of money want to be able to utilize the Command Features.
John
@romiller49 posted:After reading these posts it’s obvious that Lionel and MTH have made it very difficult for newcomers the enter the 3 rail hobby.
Do you mean newbies? If so they actually have it easy.
This is about as easy as:
But you also get more features with LC, and particularly LC+ and conventional RailKing.
If, by newcomers, you mean those just joining us with a potential interest in growing it into a life-long hobby, I hear ya. No argument.
@Craftech posted:Make it open source already and just sell trains.
Make what open source, specifically?
This really only helps if buying new stuff, or biting the bullet and replacing the control system inside in all your old ones. Lionel and MTH could allow us to flash program in all-new software, and what a change that would be, but the hardware is all different, and incompatible too. Open source doesn't help with the existing hardware.
You're left with gut-and-replace.
Q: Have MTH, and particularly Lionel, really bolluxed things up so badly that newbies, newcomers, and old timers have lost all patience?
Mike
To get started in the three rail hobby, it's quite simple to go to a Lionel dealer and buy a train set, just like in 1955, but more dollars. True there are no more non-Lionel train sets at present in three rail O gauge to choose from, when once you could get a K-Line or MTH set.
Hobbies usually have a learning curve, whether it's playing the guitar, R/C airplanes or woodworking.
My story ... uncomplicated is best for me.
My 15x19-feet L-shaped layout is dual-wired for TMCC and DCS. A knife switch is the selector for which system is connected to the track. I can't have both systems active simultaneously.
When TMCC is selected for track power, the path to the tracks is:
* 135w Lionel brick
* TMCC Command Base
* TMCC PowerMaster
* TMCC Direct Lock-on - with branch pathways to four lighted lockons on the layout.
* CAB-1 Controller.
I have several Lionel Legacy locos, but they require larger-radius curves than the O42 track and switches on my layout - the max curvatures possible in my modest-size L-shaped train room. Those locos rest on display shelves -- until I win the lottery and can afford to add a "train wing" onto the house to contain a larger layout with O72 curves.
Because of the size limit of the layout, I didn't buy a Legacy Command Base, a Legacy PowerMaster, and a CAB-1L.
I previously designed a ceiling mounted layout with O72 curves to provide a route for those locos, but the logistics inherent in building it above the existing layout are complicated and therefore expensive.
When the DCS is selected for track power, the path to the tracks is:
* MTH Z1000 brick
* MTH DCS Remote Commander (the cheapest form of DCS)
* MTH DCS Remote Controller (not deluxe, but it has the basic control features).
Because I have just two MTH locos, I opted for the cheapest DCS gear to operate them. Admittedly not elegant, but sufficient for me.
To reserve the output of the bricks for track power only, I installed a second MTH Z1000 as the source of 14v power to all 11 O42 switches, lighted buildings, and action accessories.
Carrying on, regardless ...
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
I started reading this last night and just picked it back up. Too late to save you money on a new iPad mini, but will still offer 2 cents anyway. I have the $600-800 mini for work, which I have both Lionel and MTH apps on. But wanting a second hand-held for the grandkids that didn't have my work stuff on it, I bought an older iPad on Craigslist for just 80 bucks. Runs everything fine, stays connected just to my WIU, and it never leaves the train room. Maybe anyone else reading this will be able to save a few bucks on a device, but from my experience, they work fine for short money!!
@romiller49 posted:After reading these posts it’s obvious that Lionel and MTH have made it very difficult for newcomers the enter the 3 rail hobby.
@Craftech posted:We have multiple threads on this every week. Make it open source already and just sell trains.
John
The problem and solution seem to be obvious to everyone except two people / companies. However, we should note that both of those companies continue to have customers who will buy everything they make and wait a year or longer for the privilege. Not a lot of motivation for them to change until we make them do so. (Due to this madness, my purchases are close to nonexistent, but they don't seem to have noticed.)
@RoyBoy posted:One thing that might be escaping everyone: Every train by Lionel, or MTH, or Weaver, or Sunset, will run in conventional mode as long as there is no command base, TIU, or other type of command system hooked up.
The only exception to this is the first Lionchief, before the plus (+) was added.
If you want to run in conventional mode, by using the transformer handle, you can run any trains, just like running postwar or prewar trains.
The OP (whose questions we've been trying to answer) has repeatedly stated that he is not interested in conventional operation.
@Mallard4468 posted:The OP (whose questions we've been trying to answer) has repeatedly stated that he is not interested in conventional operation.
Oops! I misread that and thought he wanted conventional operation. Sorry. My bad.
@endless tracks posted:I started reading this last night and just picked it back up. Too late to save you money on a new iPad mini, but will still offer 2 cents anyway. I have the $600-800 mini for work, which I have both Lionel and MTH apps on. But wanting a second hand-held for the grandkids that didn't have my work stuff on it, I bought an older iPad on Craigslist for just 80 bucks. Runs everything fine, stays connected just to my WIU, and it never leaves the train room. Maybe anyone else reading this will be able to save a few bucks on a device, but from my experience, they work fine for short money!!
Thanks for the tip but the iPad will get used for a lot more than running trains - photo and video editing for one and the iPad, as purchased, will get a real workout. If I was jut running trains, your point is totally valid.
Dan
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