brushes, brushes and more brushes

NOS 622-121 Lionel brushes mic .178 x .348 . Check 10 of them, all mic the same. Repo's suck.  I run brushes down to .300.  Apparently your brush wells are a larger diameter.  Both brushes should be the same length.  So the spring tension is equal.  

bob

Bob, thanks! From what I have read, NOS Lionel brushes are pretty hard if not impossible to find - do you know of a source you can share?

.300 ... great! I have 50% remaining!

I have some original brush and brush holder information. It is as follows.  I do not know what the tolerances or wear limits are.

Brushes:

OO1M-33, D .150" L .250"  Cylindrical 

1-92, D .180", L .2656"  Cylindrical 

226E-92, D .180" L .374"  Slotted

622-121, D .180" L .328"  Slotted

1001M-43, D .178" L .281"  shoulder 

1661E-29, D .150" L .296"  shoulder

WS-110 , D .150" L .266"  shoulder

2020M-33, D .180" L .4687"  shoulder

622-202, D .180" L .328"  Slotted

2055-121, D .180" L .374"  Slotted

50-82, D .150" L .296"  shoulder   

0500-9, D .110" L .300". Slotted 

Brush holders:

671M-12, ID .187"

SL-40, ID .187"

622-117, ID .188"

1661E-31, ID .155"

2036-151, ID .187"

That is a handy list. I saved a copy.
Did you make the measurements, or did you find reference information somewhere?

Thank you!

That is a great list, thank you David!

So maybe you know why Lionel used shoulder brushes in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the should brushes held the cylindrical brush springs nicely on earlier brushes. But then in later years when Lionel switched to the "bent wire" springs, they just turned the brush around, put the narrow end facing the commutator and cut a slot in the fat end. Do you think they were just unloading/redesigning existing stock and designs? Or was there a purpose in putting the narrow end facing the commutator, perhaps something like clearance from the spinning solder lugs on the commutator? Seems like the narrow end facing the commutator would provide less contact, lower current and more wear.....

 But then in later years when Lionel switched to the "bent wire" springs, they just turned the brush around, put the narrow end facing the commutator and cut a slot in the fat end.

I don't recall seeing any postwar brushes made that way. Only some Modern era brushes.

I bought a handfull of these brushes years ago at a train show.  The .178 dia fits 99% of my engines regardless of the length.  There isnt a .0005 variance in any of them.  Lionel had great QC back then.  QC from China?  Thats a joke.  Might try evil-bay for NOS.  Nice list David.  JMHO

bob

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NOS 622-121 brushes and springs on evil-bay.

Boy, I'd have my doubts about anybody on EBay having genuine, new, old stock postwar Lionel brushes.

Back in the days when I visited Madison Hardware (NYC) on a regular basis, I'd often ask for brushes, and they'd usually dole out just a few pair, until one day they offered me some MPC brushes by the hundred, which I think were 8040-150's (never have been positive). Whatever they are, they fit in place of 622 style brushes, have a bit of a coppery tinge, and are very slippery. They have a shoulder, and do not have a slot cut into either end.  I see the same brushes in early MPC locomotives, with the shouldered (thinner diameter) end toward the commutator. I wish I had purchased more of them.

There is definitely a difference in the quality of the replacement brushes that have been available over the years. The first reproduction brushes I found were very hard and brittle. I purchased an assortment, but I don't think I ever used more than one or two pairs. I still have them, set aside as a curiosity item.

I think David Johnson's list above is missing one style brush: the 246-211 scout brush.

CW, I agree, I will be suspect of any NOS brushes on ebay. I also stand corrected on my earlier comment about "postwar brushes", I meant "MPC era" brushes - caught me!

I will just put the originals back in since it sounds like 50% is remaining. Curious though, the way they put that small shoulder towards the commutator - mine have slots in the ends, BTW.

I will just put the originals back in since it sounds like 50% is remaining. Curious though, the way they put that small shoulder towards the commutator - mine have slots in the ends, BTW.

I also have some brushes that are almost the same as the ones from Madison, the only difference being that they have slots in the wider end.
Based on some of the product I purchased from them over the years, I'd guess that some of the parts were rejects. Maybe the brushes I purchased were rejects because they didn't have the slots. It's easy enough to put a small slot in the end.

So maybe you know why Lionel used shoulder brushes in the first place? It seems obvious to me that the should brushes held the cylindrical brush springs nicely on earlier brushes. But then in later years when Lionel switched to the "bent wire" springs, they just turned the brush around, put the narrow end facing the commutator and cut a slot in the fat end. Do you think they were just unloading/redesigning existing stock and designs? Or was there a purpose in putting the narrow end facing the commutator, perhaps something like clearance from the spinning solder lugs on the commutator? Seems like the narrow end facing the commutator would provide less contact, lower current and more wear.....

I would also like to learn more about this.
Not too long ago, someone posted a comment about new brushes from Lionel (current) having high resistance. I decided to try to learn why a high resistance brush might be desirable, so I did some poking around on the internet. I did not find an answer I fully understood, but it appears that there can be an issue with the currents that are created while a brush is positioned in between two segments, with part of the brush on each one. Maybe having the smaller diameter part of the brush against the commutator affects those currents.

As far as I know, that thread just died.
Here it is: Defective Lionel Brushes

Just bought NOS 622-121 brushes on O-bay.  Lets see how they mic out.

The 622-121 brushes that the Train Tender sells measure exactly 0.180" diameter. 

I originally posted the thread regarding the issue of high brush resistance. They were the new Lionel replacements for the shunted brushes. Mine are tucked away someplace safe as a curiosity, never to be installed in another loco again. Learned my lesson the hard way.

Jeff at Train Tender was kind enough to measure some of his stock for me since I was having this specific issue - came in at 0.1795", he said. That's close enough for my kind of work!

The first shouldered brush that Lionel used, actually a 2 step brush because the narrow end rides on the commutator instead of holding the spring, was the  1055-121 brush, (not listed) first used in 1959. This was a factory replacement for the 622-121. Also the were 2 types of brushes for the 200 series scout steamer engines. The 246-245 already mentioned, and a smaller refined 236-211, this has a round top where the brush spring mounts.