Built Up Vintage Kits - Rolling Stock

Picture, perhaps?  😁

Mark in Oregon

Thanks again, JJ, good advice. I've started to clean up the parts. The list of what I have to work with:

Vinegar, citric acid powder, muriatic acid (old bottle), Bar Keeper's Friend (powder just purchased), Oxalic acid (wood bleach in a container I had - says oxalic acid right on front of bottle - same ingredient as in Bar Keeper's Friend.

I started with the tank ends. I immersed the left pictured end in a mix of hot water and oxalic acid; the right pictured end went into a 50-50 mix of muriatic acid and water. They soaked about 20 minutes. The second picture shows how they looked coming out of the bath. Good, but not great. The third picture is after polishing with Bar Keeper's Friend. It takes some rubbing. The left tank end with the bad corrosion in the center took much effort to get down to the brass. Some light pitting remains. The picture doesn't show it. I'll sand that out with 1200 paper.

I'm experiencing the same pink cast on portions of the cleaned parts as I did when I restored the K4. I think it's some sort of reaction to the copper in brass, and it's leaching (?) to the surface. It drove me nuts on the K4, because I wanted the locomotive to remain unpainted.  IIRC I used color sandpaper (1200-1500) and auto rubbing/polishing compound to get rid of it. It was a pain working around all the piping. This will be less of a problem with the Lobaugh car since it will be painted.

I did find the left pictured tank end has a crack along the bottom. It must have been pushed out when it was formed. I'll fix with some body work.

Next up, I've dunked the tank body and all the long pieced into a tall container of vinegar and citric acid. I can immerse about 75% of the length in the container I have. The parts will have to be flipped to cover everything. I may let the whole mess soak overnight. I know the muriatic acid works, but I'm somewhat leery of it; that's why I cut it for the tank ends. I'll use it for the small parts when I can keep an eye on it.

So far the process requires rubbing all the parts with Bar Keeper's Friend for the final cleanup.

More to report tomorrow. Jim

Out of the box:

After soak: Oxalic acid left, muriatic acid right

Both polished with Bar Keeper's Friend; crack on left bottom

Mark,  My Westbrook refer ,  pic ? .....It was among a few cars I lent to a close friend because he liked them.  He died and his children have been selling off his very nice models on Ebay.   Perhaps I should have been more forceful about saying who owned what, but in just a casual request, I was told to  "watch our Ebay auctions".       I have bought back 3 of my cars so far.  There's a lesson here somewhere.

@J J Davies posted:

Mark,  My Westbrook refer ,  pic ? .....It was among a few cars I lent to a close friend because he liked them.  He died and his children have been selling off his very nice models on Ebay.   Perhaps I should have been more forceful about saying who owned what, but in just a casual request, I was told to  "watch our Ebay auctions".       I have bought back 3 of my cars so far.  There's a lesson here somewhere.

That's kind of a sad story...at least you have been able to recover a couple. 🙂

Question: the couplers on this Westbrook, though nicely detailed, are slightly smaller than on my other vintage cars. Is this size difference "normal" with these older models?

Mark in Oregon

It was sad enough that I just tried to  ignore it and made up a memory like it should have been.   ""'Do your givin while you're livin , and you'll be knowin where it's going.""  Most of the couplers over the years are over size, particularly for 1900 type cars. I have a variety , and most can be made to mate each other, but they must be hand uncoupled  .  The fabulous Glenn Guerra of Mullet River Models often used s scale Kadees on his turn of the century models.  Seems like everything pre WW1 was a lot lighter --Rail, engines, cars, everything .  Of course it had to be, when they were still running wood center sills !   

To continue with the build of a Lobaugh J&L tank car, I've cleaned up the brass parts. Vinegar and citric acid in a bath for 24 hours worked pretty well. For the tank itself, Bar Keeper's Friend was used after the dunk.

I concocted a blacksmith version of a resistance solderer. Total out of pocket was about $21.00. On hand components were:

10 amp 6/12 volt battery charger; Century inboard starter switch; Weller hot knife (worthless, really, and basically a 40 watt soldering iron); 2 used 110v outlets; piece of 1/4" plywood; some 5 minute epoxy glue.

Purchased items were:

600 watt rotary dimmer (Home Depot, $10.00); 5mm carbon rod (Amazon, $4.00); 6' Extension cord (Home Depot, $3.00); 2 male 110v plugs (Home Depot, $4.00).

The internet has several examples of how to wire up. Two simple ply boxes were made, one to accept the foot controlled push-button on/off switch; the other to hold the dimmer and the required outlets to accept the battery charger leads and the probe leads. The charger 110v cord plugs in the left side of the box; the 12v input is also on the left. I drilled out the Weller end to accept the 5mm rod and shortened it to make it easier to handle. One probe wire goes to the carbon rod, the other to the alligator clip ground.

One picture includes a piece of scrap brass with a brass angle soldered on. Unfortunately, the glare makes it difficult to see. It's certainly not pretty or refined, but it works. It will take some experimentation to figure how much voltage is required for different size parts.

Interestingly, the Lobaugh instructions suggest using a 100-200 watt iron for the build. The largest one I have is 80 watts. I also spent a bit of time organizing and bagging all the small parts.

Jim

80 watts is enough if it is in good shape.  They do die after a while - I have used up three Wellers.  Torch for domes and end bells.

Re: Lobaugh tank car. Old age has claimed the decals. They are distorted and cracked beyond repair. I have identified several fonts that may be used to create new ones. I'm experimenting with the sizing and layout and have taped the samples to the shell. I hope to get close to the originals.

I'm wondering when the top and bottom lines were added to the reporting marks. Lobaugh shows them for 1936. Is that correct? They also use "J&L.S.X.". I thought reporting marks were four characters only, i.e.,  "J.L.S.X.".

The frame has been started. A simple jig keeps the frame members the correct distance apart and the cross members in alignment. The mating parts were tinned, then everything soldered with a 40 watt iron. It was easier than I expected.

Jim

Jim,  you are an excellent model builder. This is the type of preparation that makes good, and it shows.  In all my years of cabinetmaking, I was sometimes criticized for complicated 'set-ups' , but nobody ever criticized my results .  And besides, when the occasional nannerwonky shows up, having a jig controlling your parts prevents them from complete frensykaputtafacation.  It's really evident you understand a careful start precedes a happy end and a lot less fuss and feathers in between.   

Somebody has to have a set of decals for you .  I'll ask around.

A word to the wise about Lobaugh underbody detail.  Look at proto drawings.  (OK 4 words.)   I love Lobaugh, but they were in an era when any under detail was considered good super detail.  The drawings have a crazy outline on all their plans that is not accurate .  I think this is especially important on tank cars because of the greater  visibility.  I'll check my books to see if I have one --or anybody have prototype plans ?

I know some people bent the sill ends to accommodate greater coupler swing.   This may not be an issue for you depending on your layout radiuses,  or maybe it would be best to get a pair of Norm Burhart's couplers --I think they require less clearance but not sure if they mate with KD ect.  I have used old Monarchs and they mate to some degree with KD's , at least good enough for me on a period model. if you don't have some Monarchs, I will send you a pair.  Regards, JJ

@jjscott posted:

The frame has been started. A simple jig keeps the frame members the correct distance apart and the cross members in alignment. The mating parts were tinned, then everything soldered with a 40 watt iron. It was easier than I expected.

Neatly done!

Thanks for replies. Any advice is always welcome.

The main frame rail are, in fact, splayed out at the ends to allow some coupler swing. I've mounted Kadees to all my cars, though I have no layout and don't plan on having one.  I just build the cars to build the cars. I'll fashion some kind of mounting to accept the Kadee body; maybe the shank will need to be shortened. The Lobaugh coupler end plate may not end up working. I'll get to that as the frame progresses.

You're right about the brake gear and drawing. The layout does not make sense. I assume the car may have had a K brake system with with the triple valve attached to the air reservoir and the brake cylinder detached. In my case ignorance is a blessing, so I'll just plumb up something that looks like it might have worked. I've never even seen a photograph of the real car. It's not in me to attempt perfect and correct scale models, so apologies to the fine scale builders. I'm just not skilled or patient enough.

It's kind of the same way with the decals. I'd like to make my own. If they are not absolutely correct, that's OK. Best advice is do it right, or don't do it at all. I wish I could take it. But, I am having fun; I really enjoy building these old cars, and I am learning from all the good advice offered.

Jim

Let me look.  Bob Anson can do black decals if you send him something to copy - he did my genuine Lobaugh Mobilgas decals - cannot tell from the originals.

Cutting a Lobaugh underframe for Kadees is a mortal sin, for which there is no absolution.  Not only that, but also it cuts the value of the car by a half.  Same with plastic trucks - keep it original.

Found a picture , but no drawings . Tried to 'blow' it up for you .  can't make out the build date, but the archbar trucks went illegal in what, 1939 / 40 ?  If i was to guess looking at the blur, I might say 1931.  Now, the brakes .....does this thing have two cylinders ?  Ha ! That would make it a SPECIAL "K" brake !   I don't know that  the capy listed is correct -200K ?

The pic I posted is not the right set up for this car,  but would be ok for most K brake .  You only need the two main levers , not the third hand brake lever. once you have done one, it's easy .  I cut the levers from sheet of course , and then anneal and bash a wire end flat , clean it up and put a rivet in it and voi'la you have a decent brake rod.  lately, I have gotten a lot fancier with the clevis ends by bending flat bar into real clevises. I think I posted some pictures of the last batch I made, but they don't have to be that elaborate...or buy some brake clevis ends from precision..... It's kind of fun when you get used to it , and I won't even consider not having brakes on cars now.   Besides,  it looks so prototypical when you have a crash and the car rolls over   &;<

@J J Davies posted:

........ I won't even consider not having brakes on cars now. 

Excellent - avoid that naked underbody syndrome!

Thanks for the pictures. They are the first I've seen of the actual car. It's apparent from the pictures that the Lobaugh car is a simplification of the real thing. The Lobaugh blueprint shows the twin brake systems, but the plumbing shown is nonsensical. The kit itself includes a only single simple turned air reservoir and cylinder.

There are 2 brass models I found on the internet. The unpainted car is O scale I believe. The painted car is a 3 rail brass car (mfgr?). Both show the twin systems.

I have a copy of Kalmbach's Easy-To-Build Model Railroad Freight Cars, published in 1971 and acquired in my HO days. I had it out a while back and just remembered it contained an article by Eric Stevens on scratching an HO scale model of a J&L car. The article is 7 pages long and could never be considered an easy-to-build project. Well, the article details the brake an valve system and DOES include a 3 view. While not clear on the scan, the brake arrangement is repeated on both ends. With acknowledgements to Kalmbach, here are some scans. The article illustrates the simplification of the Lobaugh kit.

Selection of trucks is problematic. Lobaugh's included arch bars are crude. The photos show arch bars, but at 200,00 lbs in the book text, one wonders what kind of arch bars they were. It's more likely the 200,000 references the gallon capacity. The Eric Stevens drawing is unsourced; it shows Andrews trucks. I plan to use a pair of American O Scale brass Andrews trucks. They push the height of the kit coupler mounting up over where it should be. It will be fun.

Jim

Some progress on the frame. The 40 watt iron was sufficient to solder the 45 degree joints on the end platforms. I tried my resistance solderer to sweat the main frame to the ends, but the joint would not heat enough before the battery charger breaker blew. It took my dad's old Weller gun to do the job. It's going to take some practice to learn how much solder to use. My joints are strong enough but messy.

Jim

I just posted a couple f pics,,   I'll  try and get better about attachments,   The first is how I make brakes now.  It looks hard, but is really  kind of easy and fun .  The only thig is drilling the center of small flat stock .   I drill a single hole and put the brake rod in and solder it .  Then I fold both ends to make a clevis and shape it with a file and drill a hole to receive a pin.   attached to a whatever lever, a small piece of wire can be struck once and it holds.

The second is some old US Hobbies trucks. the frames were a little crude, but I can fit a file into my scroll saw making a filing machine and really thin out and clean up old trucks.  I added brakes to them too.

Fascinating and some excellent technique and results there, thanks for sharing, I really like the tip on the US hobbies truck frame  with your "filing machine" -  ingenious.

Pete

@J J Davies posted:

..........I can fit a file into my scroll saw making a filing machine.........

Clever thought!!!!

It works really well.  Now, I have an older Delta 24 " scroll saw and it's very heavy-duty, but I think you could do the same with most any. 

What I learned is just treating a needle file like a blade.  Typically,  you have to grind at least one end to fit into the machine depending on the style of blade holder. don't be afraid to get the file ends hot because it helps to burn the hardness out of the file ends anyway so they don't break so easy.   On most saws, you can remove the blade guides and you are off to the races.

Since mine is larger and heavy duty. I have made larger attachments that would receive sand paper glued onto odd shaped surfaces. This was very effective in my cabinetshop for cleaning up scroll work .   Before I had a mill, I made my first o scale scratch built locomotive frame a 'see through' type by cuting out the shapes and holes and then coming back with my home brewed filing machine.  if is very effective.

But now since I have a mill,  I attached a high speed grinder to the side of it and use that to cut 1/8 " plate brass instead of the lower speed mill arbor. If you try this, make SURE you are using free cutting leaded brass (C-360) and you can get through with a high speed 1/8 " cutter .  you won't have a chance with some of the other brass alloys --you'll just  break and dull cutters all day .  don't ask how I know.  All this has been superseded by the acquisition of a Gorton Pana-Mill that I got last year, but have not set up yet --that's one of this summer's projects. 

Now we need photos of your steam.  Soon?  Here?

@J J Davies posted:

Interesting, I have that pickle car, is that a Lobaugh?

@PRRMP54 posted:

Interesting, I have that pickle car, is that a Lobaugh?

Lobaugh did make a kit for the coffin pickle car

@bob2 posted:

Now we need photos of your steam.  Soon?  Here?

Yeah, what he said...🙂

Mark in Oregon

Ok, But,  I've only scratch built three engines along all the other trainz stuff and that don't count the old Triumph motorcycles and , oh, Lord, the RC airplanes and boats and trap shooting.  (Oh,  is there a wife and kids around here somewhere too ??)

I wuzz doing all this while still working full time forcing a cabinet shop to work , and was given no choice but to retire 6 years ago because of a failed back surgery.  I'm trying to climb out of that hole six years ago when it was impossible to reach anything above six feet or below 30 inches or stand in front of my favorite machines for more than 10 minutes. 

Anyhoo, we are finally able to get back to the local club Alameda County Central Railroad Society  ( https://accrs.org/ )  and will install the bridge I made pre-covid  today .  Maybe I'll take some pictures.   My scratch built engine that I am most proud of needs to be taken apart to find a short,  and if you guys want, I'll take some pictures of that operation to show the construction details, some of which if I say so myself are a little clever.

The pickle car photo is prototype .  A few guys have made kits . I think Lobaugh , but not sure.   Regards, JJ

Take pictures of it before you disassemble.  We want to see your model, not how you find shorts.

@bob2 posted:

Take pictures of it before you disassemble.  We want to see your model, not how you find shorts.

Maybe seeing both is better for others.

OK,  Later today.  Sorry Bob, I just thought some might be interested in the frame and things like the activated valve gear crank that are not easily seen when assembled .  I didn't mean to infer I wouldn't have pics of it complete .

Great Northern E-8

The only items bought were the wheels, coupler, crossheads, brake shoes, markers, headlamp, stack base, bell and generator.  The compressor has a lot of small parts. the number plate was done on a pentagraph.  The pilot was milled from a chink of brass.  The NWSL drive is completely hidden in the firebox.

All pictures taken today.  My picture-phone has some features that allowed me to mimic the orig photo.  The light was very bright and I think the B&W pics show the detail better anyway.

Frame was cut as close to prototype as I could . all axels sprung , One axel has a 180 crank that activates the valve gear .  The stupid little Westinghouse 8 inch compressor has twenty pieces , and it was still not as good as I wanted. I found later that one is available , but I'll keep it along with other faults you find only when a model is complete .  Next time ......

Thanks.  I am truly impressed!  Why have you been hiding your skills?