Can anyone tell me what I have?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE, BUT I HOPE YOU DIDN'T SPEND MORE THAN $50. FOR THEM.

The F-7 units look like Kusan units the bodies are now at WbB with new guts.  The other?????

The other is three rail Russian. Don

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

The PRR F7 AA was made by AMT American Model Toys later bought by he Kusan Auburn toy company and became Kusan Model Trains. They were available in a two rail or three rail version and yours appear to be the three rail version. They will run on Lionel track they had vertical 7 pole Pittman universal AC/DC motors and many people installed Lionel E-units in them. I think the lever on the bottom is a F-N-R switch. You have a very nice pair. I would guess they are worth around $100 judging condition from your photos.  Sorry I don't know a thing about the electric loco.   j

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

That won't matter a bit with a universal AC/DC motor

I have always wondered why AMT made the nose of their F7 rather flat otherwise it is a fairly accurate model.  By the way these were the first locos I ever saw with traction tires. and with the 7 pole Pittman motor pulled like crazy. All I have seen have the original tires that are still working well. They were about as thick as they were wide and did not peal off the wheel like modern traction tires.  I already had Lionel trains in 1957 when I received a Kusan "K" line train set with two rail track. This predates Murray Kline's K-Line company by about 30 years. The Kusan K line was nearly all plastic but with very good detail and ran on two rail track with individual ties spaced 1/4" apart and looked much better than lionel track.  The KMT line was a step up from the K line with cars full 1/4" sized and available for two or three rail operation and with as much metal as Lionel trains. The two lines were sort of analogous with Lionel O-27 / "O" gauge lines.  Links below for AMT top and Kusan bottom.                                            j

http://www.tcawestern.org/amt.htm

http://www.tcawestern.org/kusan.htm

JohnActon posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

That won't matter a bit with a universal AC/DC motor

I have pre-war, post-war and modern locomotives, accessories and transformers. All work fine here in Australia with 50Hz power. Never had any problems. Possibly the only difference is those noisy post-war accessories buzz at a lower pitch.

nice find

O Gauge Guy posted:

JohnActon posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

That won't matter a bit with a universal AC/DC motor

I have pre-war, post-war and modern locomotives, accessories and transformers. All work fine here in Australia with 50Hz power. Never had any problems. Possibly the only difference is those noisy post-war accessories buzz at a lower pitch.

And probably run a little bit slower than with 60 cycle power.

eddie g posted:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE, BUT I HOPE YOU DIDN'T SPEND MORE THAN $50. FOR THEM.

don't know about the Russian item.
There are plenty of people who like AMT/KMT trains.
Those diesels look fairly decent to me. Not certain of the market, certainly considerably more than fifty dollars for the pair.
I own two different AMT diesels, power units only. Neither looks as good as the pair shown above.

Thanks so much for all of the insightful responses!  I do like the couplers on the AMT models; they look so much better than the traditional Lionel couplers.

I think I am going to sell both pieces since I have many other "unfinished" projects that need my attention.  

They will likely be posted on ebay this weekend.  If you want to make and offer, send me an email.

Thanks,

Greg

Those Pennsy F's are the AMT version - there's no KMT logo painted at the lower/back sides of the shell. AMT's F unit has an odd nose contour, and too large windshields (Lionel's F unit has a much nicer nose contour, but the windshields are too narrow/squinty). The AM variant shell has a hump in the middle like the early Lionel FA model, and the screen/vent detail is not well defined (Kusan/KMT upgraded the vent detailing, and their shell has no hump). The KMT versions of the F unit have better/more accurate paint schemes (and they added the DLGE Pennsy freight F unit to the line-up). The couplers have the air hose that can sometimes contact the center rail unless your trackwork is nice and level. The air hose pushes up to cause the knuckle to open (like Flyer's knuckle coupler) - they got around Lionel's patent on a knuckle coupler that had a release mechanism that pulled down to cause the coupler to open. Here's a thread on an AMT NYC F unit that evolved from a water damaged model I picked up:

https://ogrforum.com/...nit-flea-market-find

I haven't run across any with Lionel E-units in them (I've had/have about a dozen and none were found that way), but I'm guessing that there's some out there - they'd need some sort of bracket to mount them to, and you'd have to choose one that had an arm that worked with the shell and frame constraints. AMT's reverse unit was functional, but finicky. You're SOL if the drum has damaged fingers - you need to find a donor as I've never run across any in parts stashes I've acquired, or parts bins at older hobby shops. The pulling power is really good - add another motor and you'll have a real stump puller (and there's room to add more weight if your power supply can supply the amperage). They are lead sleds - cut the power abruptly and you'll probably cause the cars behind it to derail - no coasting whatsoever. Nice find - I'm sure you'll find them a new home with no trouble.

I have bought a couple AMT/KMT  F7 sets over the years and none had the original e-unit that is what led me to believe the switch on the bottom was for direction control. Somewhere in the pile I have a Lionel F3 chassis with two AMT seven pole motors in it, on the original Lionel trucks with magnatraction I don't remember where I got it but it pulls better than any of my stock lionel F3s and has much better slow speed manners. I have two more of the seven pole motors with original AMT trucks and hope I get around to mounting them in a frame. My problem is I have fifty years of projects and I'm nearly seventy two. Hmmmmm, reckon I may not finish a few of them. Provides a good reason to get up in the morning.  j

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

Well then I stand corrected. Guess what I learned in college about the volts/Hz ratio is no longer valid. Good to know.

Let er rip tader chip!

There is a reason they call many small usually under 1/2hp 300-350W AC brush commutator motors universal motors. They don't have or need compensation windings and will run with little rpm change from DC well through 60hz  at a given rated voltage. If you get to talking about induction motors that is a little more complicated but as a general rule a motor designed for 50hz will do just fine operated at 60hz running a little faster 20%, cooling a little better and producing a little more horsepower. Going down in frequency is a different matter a motor designed for 60hz  and run on 50hz will have to be derated.  Given a 240vac 60hz 10hp continuous motor for example, will produce about 8 hp at 200v 50hz ac if you don't want to burn it up. You can download all of Steinmetz's books free on the WWW if you'd like to brush up.    j

Don, I think the loco is actually French from one of the smaller producer like LR. The pickup system looks French and Greg, can you make out the lettering on the side at all. Again, I could be wrong. Miketg

Both of my AMT diesels and all of my Budd cars have the original reversing units.
The last one I serviced needed to have the reversing unit very carefully cleaned.
When I was done, it worked fine.

Miketg posted:

Don, I think the loco is actually French from one of the smaller producer like LR. The pickup system looks French and Greg, can you make out the lettering on the side at all. Again, I could be wrong. Miketg

I wish I could tell you, but unfortunately, it's not lettering (although it looks like it from the pictures).  It's actually a decal/sticker that was removed or wore off and what remains is the glue/adhesive.  AND....it is like that on BOTH SIDES!

Ugh!  The "toy-train Identification Gods" are not on our side with this one! LOL

Gregcz1 posted:

Miketg posted:

Don, I think the loco is actually French from one of the smaller producer like LR. The pickup system looks French and Greg, can you make out the lettering on the side at all. Again, I could be wrong. Miketg

I wish I could tell you, but unfortunately, it's not lettering (although it looks like it from the pictures).  It's actually a decal/sticker that was removed or wore off and what remains is the glue/adhesive.  AND....it is like that on BOTH SIDES!

Ugh!  The "toy-train Identification Gods" are not on our side with this one! LOL

OK, Mike is not far from the truth to identify your die cast loco.

It's not a french model, it comes from Italy from a small  manufacturer in Milano named 'BRAL' for the name of the owner Roberto Braglia. It dates from around 1947-50 and similar in size (underside) to what have done LR in France.

He produced a small range of trains, five loco models and tinplate cars. The electric locos are die cast but the cars model was tinplate. Also they manufactured a similar construction set to AC Gilbert erector.

And a page of the catalog, there is other models. 

You finally have your answer,   Daniel

C W Burfle posted:

Both of my AMT diesels and all of my Budd cars have the original reversing units.
The last one I serviced needed to have the reversing unit very carefully cleaned.
When I was done, it worked fine.

CW if you get a chance can you make some photos of the AMT reverse unit ?  I have never seen one.   Thanks,  j

I mentioned a couple of posts back an F3 chassis with two AMT/ Pittman motors mounted on Lionel Magnatraction trucks. Here are photos showing that chassis as well as two AMT motors mounted on AMT trucks. You can see the black traction tire on one wheel. Also, a photo of an AMT freight truck next to a Lionel. Note the "air hose" hanging down from the bottom of the knuckle. Their uncoupler had a retractable ramp that would lift up about 1/8" above the head of the rails to open the closed couplers. Also showing is an AMT axle with the brass worm wheel. To install the pittmans on the Lionel trucks the Lionel worm wheel must be swapped for the AMT worm wheel as the worm on it's motor shaft is a single helical as opposed to the double helical used by Lionel.  This is the reason the Lionel trucks will free wheel and the AMT wheels are basically locked up if the motor is not turning.    j

eddie g posted:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE, BUT I HOPE YOU DIDN'T SPEND MORE THAN $50. FOR THEM.

Why? How did you arrive at that? You don't even know what they are - as you said.

The Russian (I guess) piece is really interesting. The old Kusan is interesting enough.

================

Notice the humpback whale bodies; they photographed them like this to minimize that bizarre feature. From the side it's really bad. Don't know why anybody ever bought these new; as old pieces they can now be an interesting bit of 3RO history.

Williams changed the molds and eliminated the humpback. The nose contour is indeed wrong, but somehow not too creepy. 

Daniel,

Thanks, I was looking all over the internet for this yesterday! I figured you or Fred would come up with the answer. There were lots of interesting small producers of o gauge in Western Europe from around 1947 to 1955, many of whom are long forgotten.

Miketg

Roy, they are already up on this thread. Just work your way up from the bottom.  I spent three hours to find the thing.  I gotta start working on trains and stop talking about them.  j

O Gauge Guy posted:

JohnActon posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

That won't matter a bit with a universal AC/DC motor

I have pre-war, post-war and modern locomotives, accessories and transformers. All work fine here in Australia with 50Hz power. Never had any problems. Possibly the only difference is those noisy post-war accessories buzz at a lower pitch.

Do you guys down under figure on somewhat lower output from transformers rated at 60hz ?  j

CW if you get a chance can you make some photos of the AMT reverse unit ?  I have never seen one. 

I don't have any spare reversing units.
It is very difficult and risky to remove the shell from the Budd cars. I don't know whether it's shrinkage or warping, but the bodies are basically stuck on the frames.
I will try to take a look at one of the diesels to see whether the body is easily removed.
Not positive, but I think I have a MiniToys trolley with the same reversing unit. If not , it is very similar.

JohnActon posted:

O Gauge Guy posted:

JohnActon posted:

Gilly@N&W posted:

I wouldn't try running the Russians on 60Hz. Russia's power grid operates on 50Hz. 

That won't matter a bit with a universal AC/DC motor

I have pre-war, post-war and modern locomotives, accessories and transformers. All work fine here in Australia with 50Hz power. Never had any problems. Possibly the only difference is those noisy post-war accessories buzz at a lower pitch.

Do you guys down under figure on somewhat lower output from transformers rated at 60hz ?  j

Hmmm.  I don't really know.  I'm kinda out of my depth with electrical theory.  I appreciate the motors are AC, but the thing that makes them run faster is increasing the voltage.  So perhaps it makes no difference?

C W Burfle posted:

CW if you get a chance can you make some photos of the AMT reverse unit ?  I have never seen one. 

I don't have any spare reversing units.
It is very difficult and risky to remove the shell from the Budd cars. I don't know whether it's shrinkage or warping, but the bodies are basically stuck on the frames.
I will try to take a look at one of the diesels to see whether the body is easily removed.
Not positive, but I think I have a MiniToys trolley with the same reversing unit. If not , it is very similar.

AMT reversing unit (center, below motor) from one of their RDC cars.

Top view.

Side view

I've found they work very well. Just as Lionel's.....Forward-Neutral-Reverse-Neutral...etc.

AMT reversing unit (center, below motor) from one of their RDC cars.

Do your shells seem very tight on the frame?

C W Burfle posted:

AMT reversing unit (center, below motor) from one of their RDC cars.

Do your shells seem very tight on the frame?

Yes, they can be tricky to remove from the frame without damaging the shell. I used a spare chassis out of the "parts box" for the photos.

CJ

GP40,  Thanks for the pix.  I have seen these, just not in an AMT/KMT loco. Usually in parts boxes at York.   j