Cars behind engine derailing on O36 curves, I can't be the only one...

Is there any more play in the front coupler. If so run in reverse.

You may need to match up a dedicated car that allows for the tight curves. Do you have a shorter car with wide traveling coupler swing? It may need to be extra heavy as well.

Don't put a light car, or a long car behind a short engine. I believe that makes it worse.

A weighted down 0-27 piece of rolling stock, as your first car behind the S1, perhaps these would have longer coupler arms?  Don't most non scale passenger cars have really long coupler arms too?  

Just thinking out loud...

Tom

You might also check the coupler and see if there's some swing issue, or perhaps a simple tweak to give it more range.

I had a similar issue with my Lionel BNSF oil train set on my O48 curves. The buffer car gives me an issue, but if I use one of my BNSF coal hoppers that has a wider swinging coupler arm right behind the ES44AC it all works perfect with no issues.

@Freight Train Jim posted:

Is there any more play in the front coupler. If so run in reverse.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

You may need to match up a dedicated car that allows for the tight curves. Do you have a shorter car with wide traveling coupler swing? It may need to be extra heavy as well.

Don't put a light car, or a long car behind a short engine. I believe that makes it worse.

I don't know if it will help much but I had to get my Railking Triplex ( O42 min. Curve ) to work on my layout with some O 31 curves .

Besides the good advice from Jim and Joe I opened up the area on the back of the tender for the coupler wire to swing freely.   The tender was the main problem partly because of the rigid mount ( non swiveling ) 8 wheel arraingment.      Some of my 4-8-4 locomotives with that kind of arraingment also would cause occasional issues on my Real trax switches.

Even though your electomotive should run on O36 curves, it might be marginal even with perfectly laid track.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You might also check the coupler and see if there's some swing issue, or perhaps a simple tweak to give it more range.

I was thinking this too John, Maybe a gentle massage (filing away) on either side of the pilot where the coupler pokes through?

Also for my PA's,  Lionel's web page says 0-31 but page one of the manual says O-42 min.   Maybe O-36 minimum for the S1 is "incorrect" info?

Tom

What are you putting behind it?  If freight cars with solid, truck-mounted couplers, this could be the main root of the problem.  If passenger cars, with pivot-mounted couplers, are derailing, then something is definitely amiss, I would think.

Try running it very slowly thru the curves and carefully observe what's happening, maybe you can see what's going on.  Wish I could be of more help.  I would absolutely love to have one of these NYC S1's (hush, don't tell any of my Rock Island brethren ) , but unfortunately don't.

I have a Legacy SD45 that pulls (min curve 0-54) a train with the leading car being a shorty (baby Madison) with truck mounted couplers around a 0-36 layout just fine. 

I was just looking at pictures online of what the S1 coupler arrangement looks like, and happened across this picture of the box....it says the MINIMUM RADIUS is O-36, like 2 rail  

Every other 3 rail Lionel product I've seen states minimums as a 'minimum curve' not 'minimum radius'.                        Could this be the problem?

Tom

Well, upon further fooling around, the issue is the car I have behind it. I had a boxcar, went to a passenger car with plenty of swivel, issue gone!! Lesson learned.

Just looked on the Lionel site for the 6-18351 .

It does show for the product specs that the minimum curve is O36.🤔

@Jeff T posted:

Well, upon further fooling around, the issue is the car I have behind it. I had a boxcar, went to a passenger car with plenty of swivel, issue gone!! Lesson learned.

👍

A prime issue is the distance from the truck  swivel point to the vertical inside face of the closed coupler of both the tender and the derailing car.

I have that S-1 but it is put away.  I am thinking the tender has a long swivel point to inside coupler face.   Take a birds eye view of the coupler's vertical offset of each unit when they are just positioned immediately next to each other UNCOUPLED in that curve.

At first thought I believe the tender's coupler is pulling the car off the track.

Consider just what we are asking 0 scale equipment to do when navigating an 036 curve.  We want an train of 0 scale equipment to safely traverse a 18" radius curve which just happens to be the smallest practical curve of Half size O gauge (HO) trains.

18" radius (36" diameter) curve track is what is in small HO starter sets.

The mfg's minimum curve number is the minimum curve the engine will operate on.  NOT necessarily the minimum curve all  coupled trains will operate on.

As I was fixing my Lionel S2 (same as S1 mechanically) just last week, I had to respond to your thoughts. I think that others have covered it, but I was just discovering the same problem with my S2 on 0-42 curves in a yard when pulling/pushing some rolling stock. The pilots do not swing on these locos - much better-looking/more accurate - but it can cause some swing and resistance issues with some RS. When I investigated I saw that the issue was only/typically on the "non-articulated/non-swinging" coupler type modern cars. Usually these are on the lower-priced RS as they are less expensive to make.

So, the tighter the curves the more helpful the forgiving swiveling couplers become in all curve/switch situations. I recommend sticking to them if possible; trucks can be swapped out if you have some favorite cars with the stiffer, more basic trucks/couplers.

The S1/S2 can indeed go around 0-36 curves I imagine - but the geometry of the loco/car interface is another matter. (The MTH P2 electric even has/had a warning in the instructions that you might even have trouble regarding coupler swing with 0-72 curves/switches when pulling some passenger cars, for Pete's sake.)

How this whole thing came up: below, I discovered a zinc-pested truck - just one - on my S2 while investigating the RS/coupler issue above, and I ordered a couple from Lionel (I have an S1 also, so, a back-up...) I took a photo last week of the process for a friend. The pesty truck is on the left; parts were breaking off as i removed it. The frame will go into my layout junkyard, and the wheels/axles will go into my wheel stash.

@Tom Tee posted:

....Consider just what we are asking 0 scale equipment to do when navigating an 036 curve.  We want an train of 0 scale equipment to safely traverse a 18" radius curve which just happens to be the smallest practical curve of Half size O gauge (HO) trains.

18" radius (36" diameter) curve track is what is in small HO starter sets.

The mfg's minimum curve number is the minimum curve the engine will operate on.  NOT necessarily the minimum curve all  coupled trains will operate on.

@Jeff T posted:

Well, upon further fooling around, the issue is the car I have behind it. I had a boxcar, went to a passenger car with plenty of swivel, issue gone!! Lesson learned.

Good deal. Glad it worked out.

@Tom Tee posted:

A prime issue is the distance from the truck  swivel point to the vertical inside face of the closed coupler of both the tender and the derailing car.

I have that S-1 but it is put away.  I am thinking the tender has a long swivel point to inside coupler face.   Take a birds eye view of the coupler's vertical offset of each unit when they are just positioned immediately next to each other UNCOUPLED in that curve.

At first thought I believe the tender's coupler is pulling the car off the track.

Consider just what we are asking 0 scale equipment to do when navigating an 036 curve.  We want an train of 0 scale equipment to safely traverse a 18" radius curve which just happens to be the smallest practical curve of Half size O gauge (HO) trains.

18" radius (36" diameter) curve track is what is in small HO starter sets.

The mfg's minimum curve number is the minimum curve the engine will operate on.  NOT necessarily the minimum curve all  coupled trains will operate on.

Your last sentence is the key one. Engine may run but not necessarily rolling stock.  I have several engines with this problem and find a car that will run OK behind the engine and so always use that one first. It’s a coupler swing problem.

The Lionel two-truck shays will derail the first piece of rolling stock behind the loco on 036 curves. I wired a log car to each of my shays instead of coupling them to them to solve the problem. Not an elegant solution, but a necessary one that works.

Likewise, the Lionel two-truck shay can get hung up on FastTrack 036 switches, as well. In the last run of these steamers, Lionel changed the minimum curve recommendation from 036 to 042.

I’ve been finding that the newer production rolling stock from Lionel with the redesigned hidden tab coupler set up do not have articulated coupler shafts and do not handle 031 - 036 curves well - especially if you have ‘S’ curves

I have this issue with several locomotives.

I just use a car with an articulated coupler right behind the loco.

@Jeff T posted:

Well, upon further fooling around, the issue is the car I have behind it. I had a boxcar, went to a passenger car with plenty of swivel, issue gone!! Lesson learned.

I'd call that a workaround and not necessarily solved.  What if you want to run a boxcar behind it.  As long as you are happy, that's all that counts.

I had a similar issue with an MTH engine (can't remember which one).  The problem was the front truck  wouldn't swivel enough, and not that it was hitting something.  I ended up loosening the screw that attached it to the body, and this seemed to work.  I'm probably lucky though that the loose screw never ended up working its way completely loose and falling out!

I have the same loco and can confirm the first car coupled to it needs to be equipped with articulated couplers such as the type on lionels scale PS-1 boxcars, etc.

One last question, LOL. Without physically seeing/touching/holding a car is there any way to know if it has an articulated coupler??

Jeff , the easiest way I can think of for you to determine the presence of an articulated coupler is to hold the car on a piece of rail with the truck firmly on the rail and trying to move the coupler left and right.   If it moves and does not move the truck ,you have an articulated coupler.

@Jeff T posted:

One last question, LOL. Without physically seeing/touching/holding a car is there any way to know if it has an articulated coupler??

🤐

@MICHAEL464 posted:

I have the same loco and can confirm the first car coupled to it needs to be equipped with articulated couplers such as the type on lionels scale PS-1 boxcars, etc.

Maybe you could use one of  Mike's suggested Lionel scale PS-1 boxcars.  🤔

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Jeff , the easiest way I can think of for you to determine the presence of an articulated coupler is to hold the car on a piece of rail with the truck firmly on the rail and trying to move the coupler left and right.   If it moves and does not move the truck ,you have an articulated coupler.

I was thinking when I shopping online. In my mitts I can sort it out! Thanks!