Casey Jones 4-6-0 Color Scheme?

Part of the issue even with black and white photos is lighting, texture and filters.  I have three web images in my files of 382 and 377 and each one looks a little different.  Plus many photo's on the early era were retouched in some way.

There's a photo in Richard P. Bessette's book "Rods Down and Dropped Fires: Illinois Central and the Steam Age in Perspective" that allegedly shows the 382.  I say allegedly (and the author admits) because there's a nearly identical photo of the 380 above it.  The engineer and fireman are in the exact same position, while the conductor standing by the tender was removed from for the 382 image.  Also the "color" of each locomotive is slightly different, most likely due to manipulation of the negative.

Let's not also forget that the application of graphite can vary from application to application.

That said, by my reckoning the I.C. was pretty much a black and graphite railroad with the occasional white running board trim.  Some of the earlier locomotives may have arrived from builders with Russia Iron boiler sheathing, but I'm guessing black paint followed soon during shopping's.

BTW: there apparently was also an IC 2-6-0 numbered 382.

Rusty

Cool project! May I suggest using a Williams 4-6-0 for the running gear OR a repaint to #382 ? They are smooth runners. One comes painted already in “Russian iron”.  Usually can be found new less than $200. See pix. JohnA

Thanks guys. Rusty, that photo you posted is of course much earlier than the Casey Jones 382. Must have been a renumbering in the intervening years. I appreciate the thoughts on a "black and graphite railroad."

While I have been a proponent of the bluer shades of Russia Iron, whenever I see the 382 or her brethren, my mind sees a darker, almost slate gray for the jacket.

Thanks John. I might have bought one of those if it wasn't for the molded-in handrails. Even though I'm doing a model, I'm looking for information on the prototype.

I remember Trains Magazine, I think, did a pretty exhaustive article on Casey Jones back in (if I'm remembering correctly) April, 2000 - the 100th anniversary of Casey's crash (EDIT: Yep, that was the month/year). Any one know of any good books on the subject?

I would lean towards all-black, or black with graphite smokebox and firebox. It can hard to tell in a black and white photo if the boiler is some variation of "Russian Iron" or just shiny (compared to the duller graphite-and-oil smokebox). Once railroads switched from wood to coal in the 1880s, fancy colors were quickly phased out.

BTW it's interesting that 382 is, because of the accident, permanently associated with John Luther "Casey" Jones. He was only running it that night to cover for an ill engineer after completing his own run. Casey's assigned engine (back then, engineers were assigned their own engines) was 638, a 2-8-0.

@smd4 posted:

While I have been a proponent of the bluer shades of Russia Iron, whenever I see the 382 or her brethren, my mind sees a darker, almost slate gray for the jacket.

The blue-ish shades of Russia Iron seem to be the popular choice for model manufacturers.  I have a small batch I whipped up for myself long ago using Floquil's Graphite, Dark Diesel Blue and Silver.

I recall an article in Railroad Model Craftsman decades ago that covered the subject of Russia Iron.  It seems it can be shades of Blue, Red, Green or Gray depending on the process.

As far as applying a prototypically correct paint job, lacking definitive prototype information does leave it open for interpretation.  Perhaps photo's of IC 4-4-0 or 2-8-0 contemporaries may be of assistance.

Rusty

I found a great builder's photo in "Great Railroad Photographs" by John Winthrop Adams of ICRR No. 376--another sister engine. The engine appears to have been painted in all gray, to bring out the details (which it does beautifully!). Not much help in terms of color, but it really brings out a lot of the details previously hidden in shadows.

I'm not much of the belief that most boiler shells were simply painted black after the switch to coal--you would sometimes see it applied well into the 20th century. Russia Iron was a viable and effective rust-preventative, and even though it may appear darker, you can still see there's a marked color and value difference between the boiler shell and black-painted surfaces like cab, tender, stack, or even between the curved boiler shell and the curved black-painted injector pipes on the most-common "Casey Jones" engine photo.

@Rusty Traque posted:

As far as applying a prototypically correct paint job, lacking definitive prototype information does leave it open for interpretation.

The research into the prototype, using my own interpretation while utilizing the available photographic record, and my understanding of the time period and period railroad practices, is definitely part of the appeal of this process

@smd4 posted:

Another question while I'm at it: Then engines appear to have two injector delivery pipes and check valves on the engineer side. I am wondering why this arrangement? There is a single pipe on the fireman's side. Could the two on the engineer side be for redundancy?

Regarding that second delivery pipe.  One photo of the 382's fireman's side shows no delivery pipe.  I suspect the line crosses over the backhead from the fireman's injector to the engineer's side.

Rusty

Russia Iron was a labor-intensive thing to make.   The iron had to be hammered and rolled into thin sheets, which were then treated with various chemicals and materials spread over the iron sheets which were stacked and fired to form a colored rust-resistant surface on both sides. The colors depended on what mix of stuff was used before firing as well as how hot the firing was.   This material was in wide use as roof sheathing in Russia, hence its name. Colors generally were a shade of blue or green. Other shades could be made by varying the compounds used when firing the iron sheets.

When the Rogers Locomotive Works at Paterson NJ was building IC 4-6-0's in the 1890's, iron was passing out of favor for boilers and with that, sheet steel boiler jacketing was becoming more common as well.  In place of expensive and time consuming to make Russia iron, paint was generally used. Most often it would be black by then, but sometimes a shade of gray would be done, often with black accent bands around the sand and steam domes along with some imitation gold striping. By the later 'teens and into the 1920's, such fussy work was no longer done, and all black paint jobs became more common.

S. Islander

@Rusty Traque posted:

One photo of the 382's fireman's side shows no delivery pipe. 

Where can I find that photo, Rusty?

Great models, guys, but if we venture too far from "real trains," we run the risk of getting the thread closed.

There are a couple images of actual Russia Iron on-line. With it having been so ubiquitous (and corrosion resistant), I'm surprised more samples didn't make it to our era.

@smd4 posted:

Where can I find that photo, Rusty?

IC 382.

I'm guessing it's a later photo than most as there's two air compressors on the fireman's side, rather than the one on the engineer's side.

Looking at it more closely, there might be a delivery pipe lurking behind the compressors.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

IC 382.

I'm guessing it's a later photo than most as there's two air compressors on the fireman's side, rather than the one on the engineer's side.

Thank you! Another great photo.

Definitely a later picture, but very instructive. In addition to the changed location and doubling of the air compressor, we see that the pilot now has a Janney coupler instead of a drawbar (and accompanying coupler lift lever), the smokebox front handrail arrangement has changed considerably (also--are there more smokebox dogs on the bottom part of the smokebox door compared to the top?--also more bolts on the bottom of the smokebox front compared to the top), the whistle is now on the fireman's side, the pilot has foot steps, the two rearward windows on the cab side have been combined into one, and the tender is completely different. There may be piping in the cab and below the cab indicative of injector plumbing.

Interesting:  spoked pilot wheels.

@palallin posted:

Interesting:  spoked pilot wheels.

More the norm in the 1890s as opposed to an outlier.

@smd4 posted:

More the norm in the 1890s as opposed to an outlier.

Granted, but that pic looks later than the 1890s.

The car behind the engine on the left looks like it has had A/C added.

@palallin posted:

Interesting:  spoked pilot wheels.

Spokes happen...  CB&Q 5607  CB&Q 5604   CB&Q 2858  C&S 907

Rusty

@palallin posted:

Granted, but that pic looks later than the 1890s.

The car behind the engine on the left looks like it has had A/C added.

The picture is later but the engine was built in 1898.

I can't say with any certainty about the IC, but other roads I have read about tended to get rid of spoked pilot wheels.  It simply strikes me as a little unusual, based on what I have read, that those wheels remained in place that late.

Like on the N&W J?

@smd4 posted:

Like on the N&W J?

And the Y3 at IRM...

Both pilot and trailing truck...

Rusty

And I've seen a picture of a real, 1:1 Lionel Lines Geep, too, but I'm talking about what's common and usual, not exceptions.

@palallin posted:

I'm talking about what's common and usual, not exceptions.

So am I, but you're stuck in 1945, and I'm talking about the 1890s, where spoked pilot wheels were "common and usual, and not exceptions." It's like you cannot believe such a time existed in railroad history, and life before Superpower doesn't count.

Since the topic of this discussion is a locomotive built in 1898, with spoked pilot wheels, the subject of solid pilot wheels is sort of off-topic.

The picture is 1945 (or something like that).  It is quite uncommon for an engine, even one built in 1890, to still be equipped with spoked pilot wheels on a Class I road.

However, since I have violated your topic about Russia iron boiler jackets, the discussion has drifted off-topic (even though that pic is posted in the thread), and so I will exit while begging your pardon.  (FWIW, I would go with the blue Russia iron finish myself.)

Even ex- FEC U.S. Sugar's 148 (built 1920) has spoked pilot wheels.

The rarity factor post-1900 appears to be dropping...

Rusty

Palallin: It's ironic that you appear dressed in a Civil War uniform. Might be like me telling you that cartridge casings and automatic weapons are "common and usual" in a discussion about the Colt 1860 Army.

@palallin posted:

The picture is 1945 (or something like that).

I bet that photo is closer to the 1920s/1930s (based on the prevalence of the wood-bodied, truss-rodded passenger cars). Assuming the car next to the engine has AC is just that--an assumption.

Even if you think it's 1945 (the archaic passenger cars notwithstanding), the engine's pilot wheels don't appear original. In other words, they had the chance to replace them with solid wheels--but didn't.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Even ex- FEC U.S. Sugar's 148 (built 1920) has spoked pilot wheels.

They did such a nice job on that engine--really set an example for the preservation industry.

Love how the pilot wheels are pretty much front and center in that photo!

@smd4 posted:

Palallin: It's ironic that you appear dressed in a Civil War uniform. Might be like me telling you that cartridge casings and automatic weapons are "common and usual" in a discussion about the Colt 1860 Army.

*sigh*  Don't be silly.  I will say, however, that upgrading the cap-and-ball Colts to use metallic cartridges was certainly common and usual later.  Just as replacing spoked pilot wheels was common and usual later than 1890.  I did not claim it was universal.

Since there is no definitive answer, paint it as you please. It’s your model . I would go with the attractive Russian iron.  Already have too many black steamers. JohnA

Oh, I plan to. But I'll probably go with something more accurate for Russia Iron, approaching more of a metallic slate-grey.

Here's a site that features several images of the real thing (Russia/Planished Iron):

On the thread drift and models - I rather suspect you have to report your fellow posters before a thread like this gets locked.  Resist the temptation.

I personally have no interest in 382, but enjoyed Ed's photos.

There is a really good discussion of Russia iron sheeting in one of Dunscomb's giant SP Steam books.  It apparently came in all shades of blue, green, and brown.

I simulated the blue with some auto touch-up paint - a BMW blue metallic.  Too bright, so it got really heavy weathering.  You can find photos in the various Seaboard threads.

@bob2 posted:

On the thread drift and models - I rather suspect you have to report your fellow posters before a thread like this gets locked.  Resist the temptation.

Why would I do that? It's not my job to moderate.

I do know from much experience on this particular Forum  that threads can be locked or posts deleted after someone so much as posts an image of a model--hence my concern.

@bob2 posted:

On the thread drift and models - I rather suspect you have to report your fellow posters before a thread like this gets locked.  Resist the temptation.

Oh boy!  Thread drift about thread drift!

Seriously, I think this had been a pretty good thread over all.  It won't get shut down unless it drifts way off course, gets combative or political.  Russia Iron and spoked pilot wheels are fair game in this context.

It is sort of amazing given the fame of the 382, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information other than it's the locomotive Casey Jones "rode to glory."

There has to prototype blueprints and specs for the 382 somewhere other than Ed Gebhardt's drawing (noted as derived from the blueprints) in the December 1957 Model Railroader.  One has to wonder where companies like Red Ball (1960's HO brass) and Rivarossi got the information for their models, unless they obtained permission to use those drawings.  Even the MR copy is more of Casey's legend than locomotive specifics.

As far as Russia Iron goes; the restored Eureka & Palisades 4-4-0, the Glenbrook 2-6-0 (both narrow gauge,) the V&T "Inyo" and the 4-4-0 recreations of Leviathan and York all appear to have recreated or simulated Russia Iron for their jackets.  These may be the best available contemporary references.

Rusty

Rusty, thanks for the reference to the drawings in the magazine. Thanks also to eBay!

@Rusty Traque posted:

It is sort of amazing given the fame of the 382, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of information other than it's the locomotive Casey Jones "rode to glory."

Ain't it the truth. Including the photo from the link you posted, I am able to find a grand total of three photos of 382, at least one of which--as you suggested--is likely a re-touching of a similar engine.

I tried to do what Hot Water always suggests and go to the Illinois Central Historical Society, but that site consists of a bunch of dead links.

So we're left with two alleged actual photos, only one near the correct time period. Along with a set of drawings from a model magazine. Which is pretty interesting, because there seem to have at least six locomotives in this class--at least from No. 376 - 382. If it was on the point of one of the IC's finest trains to New Orleans, you'd think there would have been more than six in the class.

As for the photo of 382 Rusty linked to above, the Water Valley Casey Jones Museum website states that "when that engine was delivered to the IC in 1898, it carried the number 382....When returned to service three months [after the accident], it was renumbered to 212. In 1907 it was renumbered to 2012. It was later, in 1922 renumbered to the 5012 and retired in July 1935." So we know the engine Rusty linked to--if it really was Casey's-- wasn't photographed in 1945. But is the number accurate? Certainly the engine is the same class. But does the number on the smokebox number plate seem a little too pronounced, perhaps? Could this engine really be the Casey Jones engine? Or one of the same class that has simply been re-touched to show the original number?

I suspect the lack of photos for 382 is because it didn’t become “famous “ until after it was destroyed. Before that, it was just a run-of-the-mill regular engine. Keep us posted on your progress! JohnA