Cell Phone Photo Question

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I should’ve pointed it out but the problem is that the picture is not focused in all areas.  if you look closely you’ll see that as you get towards the second engine in the back of the train it’s out of focus. The cell phone camera lets you focus on one area but you can’t get the entire scene in focus. Anyone know iPhone 14 does not have this issue?

I have an iPhone 13 mini, not pro.  If You take 2 pics in Portrait mode, then go to photos and edit one of them, at the top there will be an orangish box with ‘portrait’ in it. Press it. The depth of field of that pic will be way different than the unmodified one.  You can actually go back in and re-edit it to put the pic back in portrait mode. I don’t know if the results are acceptable to you.

Neal,

Unfortunately, there is no aperture control on cell phone cameras. As you know, using a small aperture (high f/ number) is the secret to good depth of field. Most cell phones are in the f/1.5 to f/2.4 range - not good for depth of field. Some Samsung phones have/had a dual setting, but both are wide open as compared to the settings you would use on a DSLR.

The best you can do is select your subject so that the main area of interest is all about the same distance from the camera.

By the way, portrait settings do the opposite of what we want by throwing the background out of focus to shift attention to the subject's face.

Jim

Jim,

I know that, but the editing process removes that digitally and does something electronically with the aperture settings. It has something to do with all the digital  data that gets captured in the pic.  I tried it and it certainly does what I suggest. I’m not sure if it’ll be good enough for the OP.

Do you mean that editing a photo that way taken in portrait mode gives better depth of field than a photo taken in regular mode?

I can't try that since I only have an iPhoneX and don't have that orange box.

I've been trying to find a way to increase depth of field.

The only saving grace about iPhones is that even at wide open aperture, the lens is physically so small that depth of field isn't bad considering.

Jim

The problem is that cell phone cameras typically have a large aperature such as F1.7 or F2. Some now  come with a variable aperture but it's still not enough to  give you what you want.  While this makes them great for low light capture, it creates a very shallow depth of field. Although that's somewhat mitigated by the small sensor it's simply not enough to create the depth of field available with a DSLR. You might try taking a wider shot and then cropping. Also, some phones have a PRO setting which provides a raw file rather than a jpeg. If you could  open it in Photoshop, you would have better control in manipulating the image.

The other consideration with any lens is the hyperfocal distance.  It used to be easier with manual lenses on SLRs that had the hash marks on the lens to show you what your hyperfocal distance was at any given f-stop.  My Pentax-M 20mm rectilinear lens had a hyperfocal distance from 13" to infinity at F22.  Knowing that you do not need to focus to infinity, you might try focusing your camera in roughly the first 3rd of the image at the maximum (or minimum depending on how you look at it) f-stop then lens offers, typically F22.

These days, most of the better cell phones have the ability to set the f-stop in a manual mode.  Like any other camera, a smaller aperture does require a longer shutter speed so a tripod or mount of some kind would help.  The benefit of cell phone lenses is that they already have small lens so they can have better depth of field.

Good luck and keep sharing photos of your awesome layout!!!

@Jim Policastro,

I'm really not an expert in this stuff.  What I posted was simply a summary of what I found using a Google (DuckDuckGo actually) search.  I tried it on my 13 mini and what I wrote is what I saw.  I just tried it on normal 'photo' and couldn't find a similar adjustment when editing it like I did with a 'portrait' photo.

Perhaps the photo editing capability came with an IOS upgrade, not with an upgraded camera.  I really don't know.

Reading these responses, I think I may have to upgrade my phone!

Thanks, everyone.

Jim

FYI, I have a Canon T5i which is a very good camera. I shoot photos for publication by mounting it on my tripod, setting it in aperture preferred mode, and then set the F stop at at least 22, and as high as 36 when possible. This usually results in an exposure of 1-2 seconds. But you just can't drop the camera into a scene the way you can with a cell phone, which is why I was hoping the iPhone 14 had solved this depth of field problem. also much faster and easier than using the DSLR then having to download the images from the camera onto the computer.

Thanks to all for your input.

Neal

@Jim Policastro,

If you're into photos, you probably want to go with the Pro models.  I understand they have a much better camera than the non-Pro models.

The problem with all cell phone cameras is that you have no control over them. Everything is automatic. You can't adjust aperture, shutter speed, or focus. Plus, you should be shooting in Landscape mode for model train images. Model train scenes are typically strong horizontal images. If you want photos with tremendous depth of field, you will have to use your DSLR and add a little software magic.

Take a look at this photo:

This is from Bill Bramlage's Tower City book. Bill took all the photos in this book. As you can see, everything in this image is sharply focused! The people in the foreground are about 8 inches from the camera, while the buildings in the background are more than 8 FEET from the camera.

Bill shot this image using a Nikon DSLR and a technique called "focus stacking." He uses a program called "Zerene Stacker" to achieve these results.

Basically this is how you do it.

First, shoot a shot with the foreground in focus. Obviously the background is soft.

Now adjust the lens to bring the background into focus, and take another shot.

Here's the end result, with the multiple images "stacked" into a single image with everything in focus.

Some of the images in Bill's book required 20 or more images, each one with a different point of focus. When the images are combined in Zerene Stacker, the program automatically blends them into a final, fully focused image.

A DSLR is a necessity for doing this level of photo work, as is a TRIPOD or some form of stable camera mount. You must be able to take multiple images of a scenes without the camera moving, and you must be able to adjust the focus to different distances from the lens.

Here's another example from Bill's Tower City Book.

The track in the foreground is 4 inches from the camera, while the buildings in the background are almost TWENTY FEET from the camera, and everything is in focus.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it really is not. The results can be breathtaking!

@PRRMiddleDivision posted:

FYI, I have a Canon T5i which is a very good camera. ... But you just can't drop the camera into a scene the way you can with a cell phone...

Sure you can!

There are a lot of small tripods available for DSLR's, as well as other forms of stable support, like bean bags, C-clamps, etc. Use your imagination.

I have put large, professional video cameras into scenes on model train layouts using these kinds of unconventional camera supports.

For what it's worth, probably 80-90% of the photos one sees in the magazine these days have been taken with a smartphone. I'm just glad that capability is so very commonplace these days, because if that was not possible, it would be VERY difficult for me to interest folks in submitting material for OGR. Applies to both layout features and how-to articles. I do my best to work with authors to improve their photos on an individual basis when necessary, which sometimes involves shooting something one or more additional times and then submitting them as email attachments. Over more than 15 years in my current role, I've had very few (if any) subscribers or readers complain about the quality of the images they see in the magazine.

Like Neal, I used a Canon DSLR for everything shot for publication in OGR magazine articles.

My curiosity about cell phone cameras was just about their possibilities. I'll always be a DSLR guy, but the cell phones are just so convenient.

But, I have to admit that on my last vacation, I actually left the Canon home and used just my phone! Horrors!!!

Like Rich said, there is usually always a way to get the DSLR into position.

I've always made extensive use of beanbags and my favorite all-purpose tripod.

Jim

@Rich Melvin posted:

Sure you can!

There are a lot of small tripods available for DSLR's, as well as other forms of stable support, like bean bags, C-clamps, etc. Use your imagination.

I have put large, professional video cameras into scenes on model train layouts using these kinds of unconventional camera supports.

Rich,

Not only am I familiar with those small tripods, but I have one.  The camera still sits too high too get a view as if you were standing in the scene. More than that, I purposely have a detachable strap on my camera, and have even laid it on the scenery and taken shots like this:

But even at that, the lens sometimes has to be propped up if the camera tilts down, and focusing the image can be a problem if the camera is back towards the backdrop in a corner as it was in this picture.

And I am familiar with Bill Bramlage's photo stitching program. But nothing is as easy as just plopping down that cell phone camera and taking a shot. Believe me, I realize that at least my current iPhone 11 cell phone camera cannot match a DSLR. But I just wanted to know if the iPhone 14 could. Based on the comments on this post, apparently it cannot.

A tripod attachment that is basically an arm that would stick out over the layout would be helpful. Is such a device available?

@Jim Policastro posted:

Like Neal, I used a Canon DSLR for everything shot for publication in OGR magazine articles.

My curiosity about cell phone cameras was just about their possibilities. I'll always be a DSLR guy, but the cell phones are just so convenient.

But, I have to admit that on my last vacation, I actually left the Canon home and used just my phone! Horrors!!!

Like Rich said, there is usually always a way to get the DSLR into position.

I've always made extensive use of beanbags and my favorite all-purpose tripod.

Jim

Jim,

We were posting at the same time, and I just saw this. What you did with the bean bags is basically what I did with the shot of the road and gas station. And yes, I see that such an arm is available. What are they called?

Neal,

It's called the Benbo Trekker.

Jim

@Allan Miller posted:

For what it's worth, probably 80-90% of the photos one sees in the magazine these days have been taken with a smartphone. I'm just glad that capability is so very commonplace these days, because if that was not possible, it would be VERY difficult for me to interest folks in submitting material for OGR. Applies to both layout features and how-to articles. I do my best to work with authors to improve their photos on an individual basis when necessary, which sometimes involves shooting something one or more additional times and then submitting them as email attachments. Over more than 15 years in my current role, I've had very few (if any) subscribers or readers complain about the quality of the images they see in the magazine.

Alan,

Just saw your post as well, and you confirmed my suspicion that lots of the images in OGR were taken using a cell phone camera. Will an iPhone 11 cut it? I think they are 16 or 18 megapixels.

@Jim Policastro posted:

Neal,

Check the second photo in my post above.

It's called the Benbo Trekker.

Jim

Thanks Jim!

@Jim Policastro posted:

Neal,

It's called the Benbo Trekker.

Jim

Jim: Is there an attachment like that for use on a tripod as I already have a tripod and would hate to spend the money for a second one just to get that extension adapter for it?

This article has a technical review of the current iPhone cameras in regards to aperture and other camera stuff.

@PRRMiddleDivision posted:

Alan,

Just saw your post as well, and you confirmed my suspicion that lots of the images in OGR were taken using a cell phone camera. Will an iPhone 11 cut it? I think they are 16 or 18 megapixels.

Well, all I can say is that the photos you recently sent to me, including several received today, are certainly suitable for publication. Keep 'em coming, my friend!

@RJT posted:

Jim: Is there an attachment like that for use on a tripod as I already have a tripod and would hate to spend the money for a second one just to get that extension adapter for it?

Just Google "tripod extension arm" and you'll find plenty. Some require a ball adapter.

@PRRMiddleDivision posted:

Alan,

Just saw your post as well, and you confirmed my suspicion that lots of the images in OGR were taken using a cell phone camera. Will an iPhone 11 cut it? I think they are 16 or 18 megapixels.

Will an iPhone 11 cut it? Absolutely.  In the early days of digital photography, OGR once published a cover image that was shot with a little 2.1 megapixel digital camera.

All the smart phones of today have sufficient technical specs for publication. However, the key to shooting a high quality photo with any camera is lighting, composition and focus.

@RJT posted:

Jim: Is there an attachment like that for use on a tripod as I already have a tripod and would hate to spend the money for a second one just to get that extension adapter for it?

Like John said, there are many tripod extension arms available.

Their ease of use depends a lot on the rigidity of the original tripod. You will also have to rig some counterbalance weight in some cases.

Jim

I really appreciate all of the replies to my question. This has been extremely helpful!

FYI, look at these two images I posted on Weekend Photo Fun this week. The first is very clear but the second is not...it has lousy depth of field. Both taken with my phone five minutes apart. Probably has to do with how much I zoomed in. Frustrating how some are so clear and others are not.

Neal, there is one other important difference in the two shots you posted above. In the first image, where everything is well focused, the camera is not exceptionally close to the subject. Consequently the camera can get everything in focus because the depth of field of any camera gets larger as the image is farther from the lens.

In your second image the camera is much closer to your subject. Consequently the lens cannot focus everything. The depth of field is smaller because the camera is closer to the subject.

Zooming is another "no-no" if you are trying to achieve a large depth of field. The more you zoom in (the longer the focal length of the lens) the less depth of field you have. Often you will get better results by leaving the lens at its widest setting and moving the camera closer to the subject.

If you are not going to use focus stacking, the "trick" is to use the smallest lens opening (f-stop) your camera is capable of, even if that results in a multi-second shutter speed. A smaller lens opening (higher f-stop number) yields a greater depth of field than a larger lens opening (lower f-stop number.) Unfortunately, this is where you run up against the limitations of cell phone cameras. You can't adjust and set any of those parameters. Everything is automatic.

Just looked up the specs.  Apple 14 F1.9 on main, F2.4 on wide, Pro 1.78, 2.2 and 2.8 on the 3 lenses.  In the pro sports movie demo, the 2nd person turns fuzzy in a short distance.   I don't see any way to adjust them.   

If I take a photo with my phone or camera for my web page, I usually reduce the pixel count.  The mega pixel resolution is not usually needed.  Not a pro, but working to be better.   SLR much easier for a wide range of pictures.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Neal, there is one other important difference in the two shots you posted above. In the first image, where everything is well focused, the camera is not exceptionally close to the subject. Consequently the camera can get everything in focus because the depth of field of any camera gets larger as the image is farther from the lens.

In your second image the camera is much closer to your subject. Consequently the lens cannot focus everything. The depth of field is smaller because the camera is closer to the subject.

Zooming is another "no-no" if you are trying to achieve a large depth of field. The more you zoom in (the longer the focal length of the lens) the less depth of field you have. Often you will get better results by leaving the lens at its widest setting and moving the camera closer to the subject.

If you are not going to use focus stacking, the "trick" is to use the smallest lens opening (f-stop) your camera is capable of, even if that results in a multi-second shutter speed. A smaller lens opening (higher f-stop number) yields a greater depth of field than a larger lens opening (lower f-stop number.) Unfortunately, this is where you run up against the limitations of cell phone cameras. You can't adjust and set any of those parameters. Everything is automatic.

Rich,

This is a very helpful post, and I will keep your comments in mind when using the cell phone. When using my DSLR, I always use the aperture preferred setting, and make sure the f stop is at least 22 and usually higher if possible.

Using the iphone 14 (I only just received it yesterday and replaced an old iPhone 8), I just took a photo from the the front of my layout next to a switch.  You can see the switch machine directly in front of the phone and it stays fairly clear for about 3 feet.  The engines the background were probably 6 to 7 feet away at the closest.  It was set at wide angle.  I tried to take a photo with a lot of depth to capture including the door in the background to give you an idea of the capabilities.  I agree with the explanation above in that depth of field is a function of f-stop, distance from subject, lighting, etc and while the phone cameras have really advanced, they do not have the functionality of the DSLR.

@Allan Miller posted:

For what it's worth, probably 80-90% of the photos one sees in the magazine these days have been taken with a smartphone. I'm just glad that capability is so very commonplace these days, because if that was not possible, it would be VERY difficult for me to interest folks in submitting material for OGR. Applies to both layout features and how-to articles. I do my best to work with authors to improve their photos on an individual basis when necessary, which sometimes involves shooting something one or more additional times and then submitting them as email attachments. Over more than 15 years in my current role, I've had very few (if any) subscribers or readers complain about the quality of the images they see in the magazine.

Allan I’m happy to hear this. For a few years now I’ve thought about sending Photos for the Readers’ Rails section but I always figured it took a good camera. I knew my IPhone or IPad took good clear pictures but didn’t think they would work for a magazine photo. Thanks for the info.

@Rich Melvin posted:

A DSLR is a necessity for doing this level of photo work, as is a TRIPOD or some form of stable camera mount. You must be able to take multiple images of a scenes without the camera moving, and you must be able to adjust the focus to different distances from the lens.

Nonsense! There's no reason why you can't photo-stack with a smartphone. As you said, it's software. (Note: I am not claiming that a smartphone's camera's are the hardware match of a DSLR.)

You cannot photo stack with a cell phone camera because you can’t control the focus. It’s not software, it’s optics.

On my Iphone 12 you can tap on the screen in the area you want to focus. As to whether you can photo stack using that I have no idea.

Yes, you can tap the screen and the iPhone camera will focus where you tap…for a moment. (I also have an iPhone 12.) However, it’s not reliable.

All auto-focus works on contrast. If there’s a section of the image that has more contrast than then spot where you tapped, the focus will hold where you tapped only for a moment before the auto-focus will take over and refocus the camera on that high contrast area.

Cell phone cameras have their place, that’s for sure. The images they produce can be stunning. Their low-light capabilities are amazing. But they are not well suited for taking close-up photos of models while retaining good depth of field. You still need a DSLR for that.

@Rich Melvin posted:

You cannot photo stack with a cell phone camera because you can’t control the focus. It’s not software, it’s optics.

I completely agree that smartphones aren't able to take single-image close-up photos with a good depth of field. You absolutely need an (D)SLR. Photo-stacking, however, is a software-based process. You said it yourself. Furthermore, the focusing of a smartphone is software-controlled. If you can't already photo-stack with a smartphone, it's simply a matter of someone writing the code to enable it. It's little different from the HDR feature on iPhones, except instead of changing the exposure, change the point of focus.

P.s. If you rotate your smartphone 90º, it will take a landscape photo. ;-)  (or 😉 if I use the character viewer key on my Mac.)

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

...You absolutely need an (D)SLR. Photo-stacking, however, is a software-based process. You said it yourself. Furthermore, the focusing of a smartphone is software-controlled.

Yes, photo stacking of DSLR images is a software process. But that process STARTS with optically correct images!

The “artificial” depth of field increases that smart phones attempt is ALL software, and that software is trying to make something out of nothing. It is basically taking a soft portion of an image and trying to interpolate pixels and add them to the image to make it “sharp.”

If you can't already photo-stack with a smartphone, it's simply a matter of someone writing the code to enable it.

In that process, the code writers would have to give you the option to turn off all the automatic focus features on the phone. I don’t see that happening.

It's little different from the HDR feature on iPhones, except instead of changing the exposure, change the point of focus.

P.s. If you rotate your smartphone 90º, it will take a landscape photo. ;-)  (or 😉 if I use the character viewer key on my Mac.)

With all my complaining about vertical video over the years, do you really think I don’t know that? I produced this video…

The Samsung Galaxy s10 plus does offer a lot of control actually.  It has pro photo mode and pro video mode (their terminology, not mine).  The phone has 3 cameras on the back-side that work together to capture images, and the ability to select a point of focus to work with manually.  I know it isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.