Circuit breakers

The Z-1000 breaker is smaller than 10 amps. 5 or 7 amps.

Check your Auto Parts[NAPA, Auto Zone,etc] Store for a resettable 7 amp Breaker that you can use externally on the Hot wire run from the almost 6 amp Z -100[5.6 calculated].

If operating in Command at 16 VAC it will calculate higher.

The Z1000 transformer output is 5 amps+ a bit. Use a 5A breaker at most. If you can find a 4 amp, use it, as the breaker won't trip very quickly with a 5 A load-

PaulMod,

   These men are giving you good advise, these smaller transformers need smaller Breakers in front of them, Scotts Odds & Ends makes a lot of different size breaker

banks for this exact usage.  With the Z1000, Fec fan is correct, the use of the 4 Amp breakers works very well.  If you would have a larger ZW transformer then the 10 Amp breakers would be used.  I use these breaker banks on each line to safe guard my DCS and to keep my Z4K main breaker from activating if there is a problem on a individual line.  I do not want all lines shutting down when I can have just one, via the Scott breaker. 

PCRR/Dave

Some breakers trip faster than others.  I found the inexpensive 10 amp breakers I tried first did not trip before the z-1000 internal.  In the end, I used 5 amp breakers for the z-1000s and I think a 7 amp for the 160 watt Lionel Powerbrick?  Not certain on that.

You can get some very nice breakers that trip very fast at the rated load, but they are also fairly expensive - $30 or so.  The $3-$4 variety will not trip very fast at the rating and need a bit more current before they pop.

Since the Z-1000 has a breaker and the TIU is fused, I felt safe enough using the 5 amp inexpensive breakers.  They generally trip before anything else.

Mike

160W Lionel brick?  You mean the 180W PowerHouse?  I believe it's capable of 10 amps, 180W at 18 volts would be 10 amps.  Obviously, you can go lower for circuit protection, it depends on what's on the rails.

I get my breakers from Defender Marine.pecifically the "Blue Sea Systems Push Button Reset-Only Circuit Breaker."  They're inexpensive and work well.  There is nbo way to predict in advance which will open first on a given short.  A 5, 7, or 10 amp breaker should open well before the 20-amp fuse inside a TIU.

RJR,

   I agree Defender Marine has high quality breaker, I stick with my old Scott breakers because I purchased them long ago when they were a lot less expensive, and I like how they come in a 4 bank for use with my DCS layout.

PCRR/Dave

Modern breakers trip even faster than fuses in my experience. My bricks trip before he in line fuse blows.  Unless you have a small gauge branch line,I see no reason for adding fuses or breakers.PW transformers are a different story.

Dale H

The breaker in a transformer is designed only to protect the transformer.  A user-added external breaker should be sized to protect the rest of the layout (plus any PW transformer), incluiding internal wiring in locos & rolling stock.  I use 5-amp breakers, which I find adequate to run 3 trains on a circuit, without smoke.  They open very fast on a derailment, while the transformer's 10-amp breakers stay closed.  In retrospect, I'd use 7 amp external breakers.

RJR,

  I use the Scott 10 Amp breakers for the same purpose and they pop faster than the transformer breakers, they seem to be more sensitive, which I like. 7 Ampers in some other manufacturers Breakers would also be a good way to engineer.  I thought about using Scott 8 Ampers till I realized the 10 Ampers popped before the Z4K did, this allows me to run multipule tracks from one handle of any transformer.  So far the Scott 10 Amp Breaker banks have been working great, we will see what happens as they age.

PCRR/Dave

I went with breakers because occasionally a Z-1000 can blow the 20 amp TIU fuse.  Secondly, my transformers are not very easy to get to.  It's nice to have a small breaker panel that is easily accessible.  And finally, the lower current limit I set via the breakers cuts down on arc welding on the rails :-)

Mike

Hi

I was able to find a 3A circuit breaker. Would this be too small or should I go for the 5A?

Thanks

Check the ratings of the breakers if you have thin margines.

Some will handle surge duration times which you may not want.

Performance percentages are affected by altitude and ambient temp.

IMO an external breaker is always preferred to an encased transformer/power pack mfg breaker.

I use Flame push button breakers.  They have the most comprehensive A/C and mil-spec breakers on the open market.

Mike, if a Z1000 can blow a 20-amp breaker, I'd be suspicious of the Z1000's internal breaker.

Borderman: 3-amp would run one train.  I use 5-amp on my Z4000 & ZW(PW) outputs, for fast blowing (I don't use smoke).  If I were doing it again, I'd use 7-amp. 

borderman01,

   If you do not want to go with the 10 Amp breakers, I recommend the 8 Amp Scott

breakers or 7 Amp defenders, both are good breakers that will get the job done.

PCRR/Dave

These are the absolute fastest and best electronic circuit breakers...

http://www.tonystrains.com/pro...s/dccspecialties.htm

Get the PSX1-AC 

The current trip is programmable.

I second that.  I have them installed on my layout and there's no more arc welding of the track to wheel in a derailment.  No more blown electronics.  No Mechanical breaker can compare.

http://www.traintekllc.com/DCC...roductinfo/DSP-PSX2/

cjack & Gary,

   I got to admit you guys are correct, they are the best breakers on the market,

however they are twice the cost of the Scott breakers, and my Scott breakers have worked just fine for many years.

PCRR/Dave

Dave you have been lucky.  From Scott's own website.

The PSX that I use are faster than a fuse, which is fast than Scott's circuit breakers.  You can't put a price on protecting a 1000 dollar engine.  I'll also note the PSX has a transzorb built in for spikes.

IMPORTANT – PLEASE READ!

 

Reaction time on circuit breakers is always a sticky subject.  Fuses are much faster than circuit breakers even though they carry the same rating.   Recent research has indicated that circuit breakers are about 40% slower in reaction time than fuses.  That’s why many are choosing 10A circuit breakers over 15A – just trying to improve reaction time.

But even that can be tricky:  If you’re operating a layout with a couple engines and a host of passenger cars, your amperage draw may be close to 15A just with normal operation.  In this case a 10A may have more nuisance interruptions.

Note that fuses and circuit breakers (thermal) actually react to temperature and not the actual amperage draw on the layout.  There are other circuit breakers, namely magnetic, but are very expensive ($60 per channel or higher) and are probably out of the budget of the average hobbyist.

The other issue is circuit breakers and fuses will never see a voltage spike and often times voltage spikes are what zap our equipment.  (Voltage spikes are caused by running trains…, i.e. going over the gaps in the track, through turnouts, running accessories, blowing the horn on conventional.)  That’s why our recommendation when asked “what’s the best circuit protection?” is always a TVS-4 with fuses which provides the best available of both worlds: voltage protection with the TVS and fuses for derailments and other shorts.

Still, a lot of people love our circuit breakers – they like the convenience of pressing the button to reset, but more than likely they are aware of the total current draw of their layout in action and probably selected (guessed?) accordingly.

If you haven't purchased the TVS-4 surge protector and are operating TMCC and/or DCS, you really should consider it.

Scott’s Odds-n-Ends, Inc.                           November 2007

The bussman fuse web site has the breaking times for various fuses.  It can be a surprise, how long they may take.  My guess is that an electromagnetic, rather than thermal, is better but much more costly.

In the past 70 years, I've never had a wheen arc weld to a track in a derailment.

I need to add that I blew the transient smc chips in the psx-ac modules with a CW-80. I replaced that feature with the 36 v ones recommended on this forum. I think the original ones are a bit conservative as to voltage.

Gary,

   I have read that write up before, I must have guessed correctly cause I have never had a spike that has done damage to anything, mabe I should get the TVS-4 S Protectors also, so far however I have had no problems with the stuff built into the TIU.

cjack,

   Another good reason to get rid of the CW-80 transformer.

PCRR/Dave

I have read about the TVS protector from Scott. I might be interested in getting one. Since I have my layout divided up into power blocks, I believe this maybe the way to wire my layout with use of the TVS.

I have read about the TVS protector from Scott

Are you aware that the TIU already has TVS protection built-into all 4 channels?

Borderman1,

   I love Scotts stuff, however if you are going to purchase them, I suggest you check out the TVS Breakers that Gary shows in his post, they are exceptional, I may some day need to invest in them myself, however with them already built into the TIU so far I have had no problems, until I do I will probably avoid the investment.

PCRR/Dave

Barry

Will the built in TVS from the TIU also protect the engines as well? I just want to make sure my engines have some protection from surges and derailments. I was going to go with the push button circuit breaker but not sure if that is enough.

Note that while the TIU has TVS protection, it has no circuit breaker, so you still need that protection somewhere in the mix.

Will the built in TVS from the TIU also protect the engines as well?

Yes, from voltage spikes. As John correctly states, you still need a fast-acting fuse or circuit breaker.

There are two givens:

1. Any device can fail.

2. If it can happen, eventually it will happen.

Given these, how can one tell if a TVS has failed?

I forgot I did this video.  Check how the PSX work.

Simple, you can't.

The ones in the PSX-AC modules that I blew both shorted permanently.

If they open, there is no detection.  If they short, you will obviously know they've failed.

In the instructions it says if they burn up, just remove them.  Can be replaced with the higher current/voltage ratings as stated above, either screw them in at the input or output.

Borderman, I believe that's correct.  If you call, they might waive it if you're close.  I suggest you google the name of the breaker you're looking at, and you may find it at other marine supply houses.  West Marine has them also, both mail order & in their nationwide store locations.  Here's a link to their new on-line catalog at page 413:

http://catalogs.westmarine.com...p;bookcode=wmm13flx#

Big thanks to RJR and Pine Creek: I went to Defender Marine and got 5- and 10-amp models, perfect for here at the museum. They've already prevented problems.

What inspired me to come to the board and find a solution was a mini-fire and wire melt that happened on our 18v accessory power line. Very Scary!

Thanks again, Dave from Roads and Rails Museum, Frederick MD