Cleaning old tinplate

My guess is that witch hazel, which has been used to remove makeup by actors, clowns, and women for years, is the active ingredient. 

I am not recommending it or endorsing it in any way.  So please don't interpret my harmless guess as such and jump down my throat.  (This is for the gent who jumped on my case when I made a rather innocent comment on the Armor All thread a few days.)  

Tim

PittsburghTim posted:

My guess is that witch hazel, which has been used to remove makeup by actors, clowns, and women for years, is the active ingredient. 

I am not recommending it or endorsing it in any way.  So please don't interpret my harmless guess as such and jump down my throat.  (This is for the gent who jumped on my case when I made a rather innocent comment on the Armor All thread a few days.)  

Tim

Tim, don't let it ruin your day!

I don't own stock in the company but have been looking for a decent way to clean my Lionels better. To make you feel better there is a long list of ingredients on the package. Including benzyl alcohol and several glycol compounds. Have no idea what is in witch hazel. Witches ??

I googled "witch hazel" and it said the chemical was used for hemorrhoids so it should work on a lot of old trains.

...OK, so we have a third use after cleaning the cars and the track! 

Tom 

Yes, your wife can then use it to take off her make up !!

PittsburghTim posted:

My guess is that witch hazel, which has been used to remove makeup by actors, clowns, and women for years, is the active ingredient. 

I am not recommending it or endorsing it in any way.  So please don't interpret my harmless guess as such and jump down my throat.  (This is for the gent who jumped on my case when I made a rather innocent comment on the Armor All thread a few days.)  

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks for responding to my thread on Armor All. I think a few of us were getting skewered. Don't take it personally. I knew I would get some strong opinions from a few, and it's OK. I actually wanted to hear their advice too.

Anyway, I have some cleaning to do too. Take a look at this.

I only want to remove the dirt and rust. I am not planning to repaint anything. I have ordered new decals though. 

I will be damp paper towels to get the dirt off. I will use scotch brite to polish the trim, and I will use EvapoRust on the rusted trucks and couplers. 

Also, I found one more trick to shine old, dull paint. One drop of LaBelle oil made some dull paint very shiny even after I wiped most of it off.

George

Guys, there was no skewering going on.... But i was using strong language to discourage the use of certain methods used to clean/polish tinplate trains... as George says "Don't take it personally."   Some folks try to save pennies or maybe try to be innovative... I just hate to see these items face possible damage, or their owner make a mistake whilst trying to do the right thing is all. After all, you can learn from our mistakes...for free!

The wipes contain alcohol which can harm certain paints, and obliterate some inks used for stamping.  Plus they dry out that surface that was wiped. Glycols can leave coatings on the surface......

George, please dont use scotch bite on the trim, it is too rough... and will go thru the plating lickety-split. Use a little tooth paste on a rag (or Q-Tip) to clean nickeled parts, or use metal polish(fine cut again!) for more shine.  Evaporust is last resort on the trucks and any plated part could be ruined. The trucks are easily disassembled and tumbled or dremel wire brushed to remove rust on the wheels and axels.   In lieu of Evaporust, try synthetic oil like LaBelle and vigorous toothbrushing on truck frames... they are chemically blackened and that stuff resists oils.... you'll be amazed what will come off, and how good they will look.  Im not a big proponent of using oils on paint however.

Rob English posted:

Guys, there was no skewering going on.... But i was using strong language to discourage the use of certain methods used to clean/polish tinplate trains... as George says "Don't take it personally."   Some folks try to save pennies or maybe try to be innovative... I just hate to see these items face possible damage, or their owner make a mistake whilst trying to do the right thing is all. After all, you can learn from our mistakes...for free!

The wipes contain alcohol which can harm certain paints, and obliterate some inks used for stamping.  Plus they dry out that surface that was wiped. Glycols can leave coatings on the surface......

George, please dont use scotch bite on the trim, it is too rough... and will go thru the plating lickety-split. Use a little tooth paste on a rag (or Q-Tip) to clean nickeled parts, or use metal polish(fine cut again!) for more shine.  Evaporust is last resort on the trucks and any plated part could be ruined. The trucks are easily disassembled and tumbled or dremel wire brushed to remove rust on the wheels and axels.   In lieu of Evaporust, try synthetic oil like LaBelle and vigorous toothbrushing on truck frames... they are chemically blackened and that stuff resists oils.... you'll be amazed what will come off, and how good they will look.  Im not a big proponent of using oils on paint however.

Rob,

Good point on the trucks. I disassembled them. The trucks are fine themselves. I did use a little Labelle to clean them. The wheels and axels are heavily rusted. I think EvapoRust will be easiest on those. I have gone the Dremel route before with poor results.

I know oil is hard to remove from paint. However, it sure looks good.  I will try to follow the rules, but I am not buying these trains as investments. I like the way they look, and I run them. I just want them to look nice. Yet, I know you are giving me good advice, and I will use as much of it as I am capable.

George

I think you are over cautious on the use of the towelettes for cleaning Lionel cars & engines.  I have had a lot of exposure over the years with cleaning compounds, chemicals and paints and always tread slowly. The towelettes cleaned up a nice, old boxcar, a big observation car and a nice 402e engine with original paint. All look much better this AM. The observation car has the original stamped lettering still on the sides. The brass plates on the sides of the  engine and observation car still have their paint. It is logical that a product to be used to clean a woman's face  would not contain anything harsh. Looked up benzyl alcohol  and it is present in fruit, and used in pharmaceuticals  but will kill head lice so be careful. To learn anything in this world you have to sometimes stick your neck out a little bit to see what happens. I could care less if no one uses towelettes, I am, next up is a nice Standard gauge refrigerator car with black residue on t.

Witch Hazel also great for itching especially those varicose veins on your calves from standing over your train table for hours on end....

FYI: Medically speaking, witch hazel is an astringent and also a low-grade anti-inflammatory agent. It can also have a drying effect, so Balneol is often recommended over witch hazel/alcohol products like Tucks for anal/rectal issues.  :-)

George S posted:

Rob English posted:

Guys, there was no skewering going on.... But i was using strong language to discourage the use of certain methods used to clean/polish tinplate trains... as George says "Don't take it personally."   Some folks try to save pennies or maybe try to be innovative... I just hate to see these items face possible damage, or their owner make a mistake whilst trying to do the right thing is the oall. After all, you can learn from our mistakes...for free!

The wipes contain alcohol which can harm certain paints, and obliterate some inks used for stamping.  Plus they dry out that surface that was wiped. Glycols can leave coatings on the surface......

George, please dont use scotch bite on the trim, it is too rough... and will go thru the plating lickety-split. Use a little tooth paste on a rag (or Q-Tip) to clean nickeled parts, or use metal polish(fine cut again!) for more shine.  Evaporust is last resort on the trucks and any plated part could be ruined. The trucks are easily disassembled and tumbled or dremel wire brushed to remove rust on the wheels and axels.   In lieu of Evaporust, try synthetic oil like LaBelle and vigorous toothbrushing on truck frames... they are chemically blackened and that stuff resists oils.... you'll be amazed what will come off, and how good they will look.  Im not a big proponent of using oils on paint however.

Rob,

Good point on the trucks. I disassembled them. The trucks are fine themselves. I did use a little Labelle to clean them. The wheels and axels are heavily rusted. I think EvapoRust will be easiest on those. I have gone the Dremel route before with poor results.

I know oil is hard to remove from paint. However, it sure looks good.  I will try to follow the rules, but I am not buying these trains as investments. I like the way they look, and I run them. I just want them to look nice. Yet, I know you are giving me good advice, and I will use as much of it as I am capable.

George

My friend Steve Eastman showed me how to use a bench grinder with a brass wire wheel to clean the wheels and axles and it is the quickest and easiest method I now always use. I am working on some really rusted standard gauge 200 series trucks where I did the wire wheel treatment to the wheels and axles. I also wire wheeled the truck frames and painted them. I will get the journal covers on and everything assembled. I have nothing for them to go on yet so.....and here is a picture.

jim pastorius posted:

I googled "witch hazel" and it said the chemical was used for hemorrhoids so it should work on a lot of old trains.

And on a lot of us old train collectors like me.

Jim

Used a brass  circular brush in a cordless drill on  wheels and it worked great cleaning rust off. Clamped the wheels and axle s the wheels spun. Used towelettes on 4 Standard gauge cars and it really made them look good. Especially the white refrigerator car. Loosened and softened old brown gunk on the one side.  Used a pointed wood coffee stirrer to get in to tight spots. The towelette left a nice gloss on the original paint, too.

I recently started putting the wheels on a copper wire and then using a wire wheel on a drill to clean/ polish them. I either use brasso or a wire wheel on the truck frames and some i will reblacken with the Eastwood chem blackener and that works great. I agree that brasso isto harsh for trim but if the base metal is steel it seems to work fine. Evaporust is great but costs a bit.  I use electrolysis to remove heavy rust and paint.  This works great for me.  I use turtle wax on the enamel and have had good luck there as well.  Its all trial and error and picking up tips from you guys as well. 

jim pastorius posted:

Used a brass  circular brush in a cordless drill on  wheels and it worked great cleaning rust off. Clamped the wheels and axle s the wheels spun. Used towelettes on 4 Standard gauge cars and it really made them look good. Especially the white refrigerator car. Loosened and softened old brown gunk on the one side.  Used a pointed wood coffee stirrer to get in to tight spots. The towelette left a nice gloss on the original paint, too.

I suspect Witch Hazel acts like alcohol. It will certainly loosen the dirt and the towelette removes it. It is probably softening the paint temporarily and reactivating it to leave that gloss shine. I doubt it leaves any residue, and the paint will harden again. Just be careful with continual use, as you could remove too much paint. Are you seeing any paint color on the towelettes? If so, it is evidence of some paint removal. Even a wax will do that though on old paint. I would suggest getting some wax on the car, after leaving them to dry for a few days, to protect the paint.

George

Dennis Holler posted:

I recently started putting the wheels on a copper wire and then using a wire wheel on a drill to clean/ polish them. I either use brasso or a wire wheel on the truck frames and some i will reblacken with the Eastwood chem blackener and that works great. I agree that brasso isto harsh for trim but if the base metal is steel it seems to work fine. Evaporust is great but costs a bit.  I use electrolysis to remove heavy rust and paint.  This works great for me.  I use turtle wax on the enamel and have had good luck there as well.  Its all trial and error and picking up tips from you guys as well. 

Dennis,

Hmmm, electrolysis... I hadn't thought of that. What is your method? I helped my daughter build an electrolysis science experiment a few years ago. I used zip ties to connect and insulate two parallel ground bars then connected those to a 9v power supply. When put in water with salt, we achieved conductivity between the two bars. I also have unfiltered well water outside that has sulfer. The electrolysis oxidized the sulfur dioxide in the water, turning it brown. Of course you can then easily filter the oxidized material from the water, but that was not the point.

Do you submerge the parts like my experiment? It looks like you are using a different method in the pictures.

By the way, I bought a large container of EvapoRust at Harbor Freight for about $25. It has lasted multiple projects and a couple of years. I filter it back in the bottle when I am through and use it over. It will take the blackening off, so you would need to paint or re-blacken.

George

One more thing, I have wire brushes for my Dremel. I end up with a mess from the wires coming off and going everywhere. If I wear only socks in my workshop, I am picking wire out of my socks for months.

One more thing, I have wire brushes for my Dremel. I end up with a mess from the wires coming off and going everywhere. If I wear only socks in my workshop, I am picking wire out of my socks for months.

I'm picking the wires out of my feet .

I had a book on restoring antique dolls worth a lot of $$$  and they told how to restore the paint on the doll faces. You can't match the old paint so they would soften it enough to cover over cracks and small blemishes. Also I have a DVD on restoring old art work. They do  amazing work.

Do any of you folks use a TUMBLER for items like wheels and axles? Used to be the norm in the '70's for latch couplers and other plated parts. There were different abrasive media available at that time for use in these lapidary tumblers.

George S posted:

One more thing, I have wire brushes for my Dremel. I end up with a mess from the wires coming off and going everywhere. If I wear only socks in my workshop, I am picking wire out of my socks for months.

Same here, I ended up finding lots of them as I walked around barefoot 😁

George S posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

I recently started putting the wheels on a copper wire and then using a wire wheel on a drill to clean/ polish them. I either use brasso or a wire wheel on the truck frames and some i will reblacken with the Eastwood chem blackener and that works great. I agree that brasso isto harsh for trim but if the base metal is steel it seems to work fine. Evaporust is great but costs a bit.  I use electrolysis to remove heavy rust and paint.  This works great for me.  I use turtle wax on the enamel and have had good luck there as well.  Its all trial and error and picking up tips from you guys as well. 

Dennis,

Hmmm, electrolysis... I hadn't thought of that. What is your method? I helped my daughter build an electrolysis science experiment a few years ago. I used zip ties to connect and insulate two parallel ground bars then connected those to a 9v power supply. When put in water with salt, we achieved conductivity between the two bars. I also have unfiltered well water outside that has sulfer. The electrolysis oxidized the sulfur dioxide in the water, turning it brown. Of course you can then easily filter the oxidized material from the water, but that was not the point.

Do you submerge the parts like my experiment? It looks like you are using a different method in the pictures.

By the way, I bought a large container of EvapoRust at Harbor Freight for about $25. It has lasted multiple projects and a couple of years. I filter it back in the bottle when I am through and use it over. It will take the blackening off, so you would need to paint or re-blacken.

George

I use a 5 gallon bucket with 5 lengths of rebar. Weld a bolt to one end of each bar, drill top lip of the bucket and install. Connect them with some 12 gauge wire. Fill bucket with water and Arm & Hammer .  I use my car battery charger and connect the hot clip to the rebar and the neg to the part and suspend it in the soup.  Come back later 👍. It costs almost nothing and works great. It does not remove the tin coating and leaves the original factory metal surface unless it is pitted. I like the evaporust as well, but i lost most of mine when the pan i was soaking in sprung a leak and the spillage ruined so other stuff  on the bench. Ineed to get some more.

Do any of you folks use a TUMBLER for items like wheels and axles? Used to be the norm in the '70's for latch couplers and other plated parts. There were different abrasive media available at that time for use in these lapidary tumblers.

I have a vibratory polisher. It was purchased through a pinball parts dealer who marketed it to polish the steel balls and various hardware. That dealer is gone, but I think it is identical to this one, which is sold to polish gun shells.

I generally use walnut shells with a little Flitz tumbler additive.
I found corn cob media to be too gentle.
On very rare occasion I use Eastwood tumbling media for heavily rusted parts.

If the walnut shells aren't doing the job, sometimes I throw in a handful of various sized finishing nails. They seem to speed things up.

One down side of walnut shells: little bits get into every crack and hole. Then that stuff has to be carefully cleaned out.

CW: Sounds like a plan! :-)

Please tell my wife the use of wire wheels is ok. Either that or I gotta refine techniques such as Dennis. Had to pick wire strands from wife after she used our tractor. Seems the wires from dremel brushes landed on tractor seat.

John

I always thought a tumbler would be nice to have and thought about building one but never  did.  With wire wheels-protect your eyes !!

John H. Shetler posted:

Please tell my wife the use of wire wheels is ok. Either that or I gotta refine techniques such as Dennis. Had to pick wire strands from wife after she used our tractor. Seems the wires from dremel brushes landed on tractor seat.

John

 

So far the dremel wheels do the same for me.  I was picking wires out of my feet for days.  Larger wire wheels will still shed wires, but they don't seem to poke and stick in your foot. I assume this is because the are larger. I use them out in the garage.

I've posted this elsewhere, sorry, but I'll post it again for those curious.  My electrolysis set up.

Bottom one is not mine but a pic of a similar set up off the web .

Dennis, 

   Looks like some voodoo science goin' on there! Is that how Frankenstein, Frankensteam was built? 

Tom 

It's cheap, easy, and environmentally friendly. 

That is how they cleaned the Civil War ship, the Monitor after it sat on the ocean floor over 100 years.

Accidental discovery last week: I picked up a book to find the previous owner had spilled some kind of coffee creamer on it. The front cover was gooey. I was baking and had the cornstarch sitting out. Sure enough, the cornstarch acted instantly to soak up the glop, but what really amazed me was that it wiped right off the matte-finish cover. It wasn't even like baking soda that needs gently rubbed in--it's so absorbent that it only needed light contact and it was easy to brush off without damaging the card stock. Bet it would be handy for grease built up on soft paint.

John H. Shetler posted:

Please tell my wife the use of wire wheels is ok. Either that or I gotta refine techniques such as Dennis. Had to pick wire strands from wife after she used our tractor. Seems the wires from dremel brushes landed on tractor seat.

John

 

A wire wheel beats steel wool, but the loose wires can still be attracted to magnetraction or the motor fields when energized, and obviously we can't control where they land, so I do most wire wheeling in another room.

Dremel wheels are often stainless or brass, not attracted by any magnetizim, but unable to be cleaned up with a magnet too.

Chose a poison.

For light cleaning I use wire handled bushes and just the edge on one or two bristle groups, angled hard, near tangent,  and spin the wheel to keep the wires from flying, along with a pre-soak of light penetrating gun oil, the work is usually minimal.

For heavy stuff, I've used everything from Evoporust to strong muriatic acid.

Evaporust has the least effect on old paint that I've seen yet. I have two jugs, one is used stuff recollected (weaker, but still very effective), and fresh. It is also environmentally friendly and smells kinda good being citrus based and all

  I bought some for on clearance for under a buck a bottle many many years ago with hot rod parts in mind, and it sat unused untill I came across a thread on it here, as acid or blasting was my go too with cars.

Toothpaste is a decent cleaner/ polish. Especially clear plastics. But it is also slow going. Pearl Drops has the best cut to it imo, Arm &Hammer w/baking soda isnt bad either.

The baking soda possibly worked as a poultice and absorbed the fluid as it dried. I bought a small packet of Neutragena cleaning towelettes today and went over my  Standard gauge cars and engines with original paint and cleaned them some more. Does a nice job, very happy with it. Plan to pull some more out of storage and clean them up.

I realize this is an older thread, but since I'm newer to the restoration world, I was wondering since I have a rock tumbler, if I could use that to polish rust off prewar wheels? Just a thought. The other thing I'd really like to add, is I use Goop hand cleaner. It does an awesome job getting crud off of old finishes, keeps the paint, decals and stamps perfect, and leaves a nice shine when you buff it off. I have a  Lionel Dreyfuss set. The loco and tender had some mildew and crud on it, I used everything on it. Then I applied a layer of the Goop, let it set a bit, took some rags and rubbed, it came off leaving a beautiful satin black finish. There's a great article on the TCA website too about using it.  http://www.tcaetrain.org/artic...ingtrains/index.html. 

Thanks for pulling up this old thread. It goes over a lot techniques and recall some somewhat heated other discussions along these lines. Each person has their own preference and no one in their right mind wants to harm good original paint. IMO, once the plating is gone due to rust and age, anything that works for you and doesn't scratch the metal badly is fair game. Further up in the thread is discussion on tumblers. I don't have one but would think the medium used is key.

I've mentioned a few times here that much of my collection was an inheritance from my Grandfather. Well, a few months before he passed, he had an oil furnace backfire. The collection caught the brunt of it. Black soot on everything. When my daughter and I packed up his collection our hands were black with oil soot. I found that a careful disassembly, without getting too crazy, and then a bath in a tub of simple car wash solution cleaned 'em up well. Anything rusted got thrown in the Evaporust bucket overnight and then a light polish with a citrus/beeswax based polish, brought 'em up real good.