Concrete ties

We were told while riding a train in Canada that although the concrete ties last longer they don't have any give and cause the wheels to wear more than wood ties. Therefore they were going back to wood ties.

Interesting point.  So as my wife suggested, encase creosote ties in recyclable plastic.  I recall that there were composite plastic ties but they didn't hold spikes well and flexed too much, I believe.  So maybe my wife's idea might have value.  Plastic and wood flex, and plastic won't decay for 1000 years we're told by P.C. environmentalists. So recycled plastics takes care of the landfill problem.

Of course then tie producers would whine that their output is reduced because fewer replacements.

Interesting.... you won't see the UP, BNSF, or NS "going back" to wood ties. They just keep putting new tracks in with concrete ties.

Not around here they don't.

it was discovered concrete ties placed on the NEC in NJ during the 80's were of substandard quality and has forced their replacement over the past 2 years.

There were a lot of defective concrete ties on the NE coridoor as Chris noted.

Freight RR's have had load issues. SCRM has a mile or so of concrete ties they got from a freight line. They were told the concrete could not handle the load on the line and were removed.

Because they don't flex, they do break easier than wood. time will also take there toll on the ties, and they start spauling.

I think everyone is still using them.

Jamie

I've seen several shows recently talking about the manufacture of composite ties from recycled plastic materials, I wonder if that's the future direction. 

Given that Creosote has been banned for consumer use, and may at some point be banned totally, I suspect the railroads may have to find an alternative to wood ties.

 The NS is trying out more ego friendly cross-ties without cresote on them. They really do look green    

As I recall, the Black Mesa & Lake Powell Railroad (dedicated coal hauler) was one of the first large-scale applications of concrete ties in the USA ... and they failed quickly. Very high axle loads were a factor. And they learned that rails need special resilient rubber pads and clips on a concrete tie.

Concrete ties are certainly successful in many other countries but USA railroads tend to have higher axle loadings, if that's a factor.

I would be interested to hear more specifics about concrete tie failures. They should be a longer-lived replacement for timber ties if the concrete is properly formulated.

BM&LP Track rehabilitation 1975

In the West...Union Pacific has double tracked throughout southern New Mexico and Arizona with concrete ties. They completed most of this work in the last year.

I had read some reports on concrete tie failure online & to the extent I still remember them, concrete ties from the 80’s were prone to rail-seat wear, right under the rails. This caused the tie to fail sooner than the 20+ years promised by the tie manufacturers & expected by the railroads. So some railroad in the eastern US, might have been Norfolk Southern, decided to not pursue concrete ties even though the technology kept improving.

Also consider the weight of each of these ties. Traditional wooden ties (7” tall, 9” wide and 8’6” long) weigh around 235 lbs according to the Railway Tie Association. Concrete mainline ties from CXT (8.6” tall, 13” wide and 8’6” long) weigh around 700 lbs & the humongous concrete ties that Rail.One (9” tall, 11” wide and 8’6” long) came up with for the high-axle load unit-train transporting coal, in the Powder River Coal Basin tracks weigh 882 lbs. So concrete ties cannot be easily moved manually requiring semi-automated or completely automated installation & maintenance. So the skill of the workforce & the tools required for wood & concrete ties are different.

The upfront cost of the ties & the tools / equipment needed for concrete ties are also more & if the track does not see high traffic either at high speeds or with high-axle loads, then concrete ties may not be a practical choice for that particular route.

Also for switches the tie length & location of the fastening system have to be determined far in advance while making the concrete tie, making it inflexible if needed in another location that has a different turnout number.

So even though they maintain the track gauge closer to the required dimensions compared to wooden ties, can be spaced further than wooden ties (24” tie spacing for concrete ties, while only 19.5” for wooden ties) resist shifting forces better owing to their massive weight & last relatively longer, it is not needed or used in every route.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Hmmmm...conflicting information.....I guess the experiment continues....

Are you the guy who wired Tony lash's layout? I maybe wrong about that. I think you used to post answers about DCS???

I used to follow your posts years ago.

I am not aware of NS ever using concrete ties...they are always eager to state they hate them when the subject is brought up.  

The UP connected two sidings down in the Missouri boot heel area in the last year or so. In the six mile stretch they used a combination of wood and concrete, mostly concrete on the straight areas and wood in the curves.

They used hard plastic tie plates on the concrete ties.

But 10 years ago, the UP added a second main in mid Missouri, and the entire 5 miles is concrete ties. Lots of curves in that stretch! There have been very few tie replaced due to cracks.

A recent rebuilding of the UP's St. Louis-Chicago "High Speed" line, the ex GM&O, I believe is all concrete ties. They had a problem a problem in the first rebuild with defective concrete  ties and the gangs came back and replaced them all. They concrete contractor was rumored to have had insurance and that covered the cost of the ties. 

Dan 

The real lesson may be that regardless of what the ties are made of, they still must be regularly checked and replaced.

In the Pittsburgh area Conrail had several different "Test" sections of track utilizing concrete ties. Within 2 or so years they were all pulled out and replaced with regular ties, seems as though the concrete ties acted like a pump in the road bed, and everywhere they were installed mud fields were created! What a disaster! I for one was not sorry to see them go, got tired of the slow orders..... 

So I guess what looks like a good idea on paper,ain't, or requires special treatment or ideal location, soil etc.

They had a test section coming east down the mountain from Merrimac. You could tell the difference in the ride between the wood and concrete ties. The concrete ties rode a lot harder. I hope they finally replaced them. 

The following is just my unsubstantiated observation, when the CSX installed concrete ties along their James River Line, the number of derailments skyrocketed along that line.

What kind of wood?  Is that the weight after being pressure saturated with creosote?

mwb,

Here is the link to the Frequently Asked Questions page of the Railway Tie Association, a trade group for promoting the use wood ties where I got the weight & dimensions of wood ties. The page also has a list of the wood species

http://www.rta.org/faqs

As a disclaimer, I have to add that I am not a fan of wood ties as I prefer modern trains / infrastructure. I came across information for concrete ties & unintentionally wood ties online, when I gathered data that I used created a well-detailed 1:1 scale 3D CAD model of a modern concrete tie. During this year’s Chicago March Meet, I pestered some switch manufacturers to introduce O-scale tracks with concrete ties & got advice from other sellers / hobbyists on leads to make some scaled-down concrete ties for my personal use.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Thanks.  Answers in part a few thoughts I had on choices of wood being used.

Funny - UP tore out the old MoPac here in St. Louis just this summer - lookedd to me to be all wood ties going back in.  I'll check again.

Actually, secret gangs hired by the wood ties association have been going around the country breaking concrete ties and digging the up alignments so the rides are rougher, buying off engineers to say how terrible concrete is etc.  Then wood ties run big ads saying how wonderful their ties are, and voila, they're back in business!!

I am down here in south Florida around West Palm Beach area and Florida East Coast(FEC) railroad uses concrete ties for their whole rail line now except at some bridges and switches.

CSX on the other side of town mainly uses wood ties, however I have seen some concrete ties being used in places between West Palm Beach and Miami FL.

Lee Fritz

I can see where concrete would be an advantage in soil with minerals, high moisture, and insects that increase wood rot.  Where the soil was "normal" (whatever that means) wood would be cheaper and more forgiving.

I'm sure there is a cost factor involved, concrete vs. wood. I've seen some concrete ties on NJT/Metro North's old Erie lines but mostly wood. 

This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks especially to Naveen for the specific information.

I retired friend who did extensive concrete highway and bridge engineering for Caltrans tells me he saw some concrete railroad ties brought in for failure analysis. The reason for failure was determined to be improper concrete formulation which caused the concrete to deteriorate prematurely. There is a lot of chemistry involved with making good durable concrete; it requires extensive quality control which may be challenging to maintain in the field on large-scale projects.