Contemplating 2-rail

Unfortunately due to some historical decisions made probably in the 1930s, O Scale 2 rail is really 5 ft gauge.   Proto-48 is really 4 ft 8 1/2 inches.   

 

So main stream 2 rail O Scale uses the same track gauge as 3 rail.   No difference in distance between rails/flanges.   

 

There are big differences in flange size and rail height.    2 rail in my opinion (remember opinion), looks better to me.    Also there are a variety of rail sizes in 2 rail, so you can make industrial sidings look light weight, and mainlines heavyweight and everything in between.   The flanges on 2-rail are much smaller and the wheel profile is more protypical.

 

As for building, you don't really have to build much.   You probably do have to put a little more effort into the track.   There is no sectional 2 rail that  I know of.

 

Atlas O makes everything they make in their master and trainman line in both 2 and 3 rail.   The MTH stuff can be had as 2 rail convertable to 3 etc.    Lionel does nothing in 2 rail, but you can convert cars with new trucks.   There are lots and lots of brass heavy detailed cars ready assembled and now painted.    Sunset 3rd Rail and their Golden Gate Depot subsidiary do both brass and plastic and are good value for the moeny.    Weaver Models makes most of their stuff in both 2 and 3 rail.    So you really don't have to build cars and engines.    You robably want to convert all couplers over to Kadee brand.

 

A point to remember, is that stuff made specifically for 3 rail, does not have insulated wheels.    ALL 2 rail rolling stock MUST have insulated wheels.   2 Rail picks up opposite polarity from the 2 rails.    3 rail picks up one pole from the center and uses both outside rails for the other pole.    So no 3 rail stuff will run on 2 rail track without a little work.

 

Traditionally 2 Rail has run on DC current and reversing only requires changing polarity, no hardware such as an E-unit.   3 Rail traditionally has run on AC and used some sort of mechanical or electronic device inside the engine for reversing.  

 

Both have now gone to Electronic digital control systems.    However, 3 rail, the systems are proprietart.   Lionel  has TMCC and MTH has DCS.   I don't think they are compatible.   All the O Scale 2 railers I know that have gone to a digital system use the NMRA standard DCC system.   With this system, you can use anyones recievers with anyones throttles, the signal is standard.   And there are some very exotic sound recievers on the market.   

 

A final thought about Proto-48.   It is a very small segment of the market.   Nothing is RTR in the segment, and as far as I know, all track is handlaid.    There are trucks available to convert cars to the proper gauge.   You either have to convert the diesels yourself or have one of a number of shops do it for you.   A diesel model is not too hard to convert.   A steamer as I understand it, is a pretty big job because of the rods and what not.   And the cylinder saddle has to be narrowed.    Proto-48 is not the same as O Scale 2 rail.   It is more accurate to prototype, but is more of a builder niche.

 

 

PS, as for size, yes 3 Rail scale and 2 rail scale are the same.   Scenery and what not is the same.

 

But note that many of the older 3 rail products were not scale models.

Building freight and passenger cars as well as structure modeling would give me something to do when I travel on these power plant projects.  The ones I have seen so far do not come with trucks so I guess I can build some of these and add trucks later.  Looking closer at the cars ad locomotives, I see the difference in the wheels and when are side-by-side, the difference is quite noticeable.

 

If the MTH locos are easily convertible or ordered as 2-rail, I viewed some that use a simple switch to convert, if ordered as a 2-3 rail, then I should be in good shape.  I have to admit, I dismissed the idea too quickly as I confused 2-rail with the Proto48 and thought of scratch building everything seemed a bit over-the-top for my available time.

 

Space, there is plenty of, time not so much.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

db

To some extent, your question doesn't really have a right or a wrong answer.

 

Rather, advance with whatever makes you the most happy or yields the greatest satisfaction to you.

 

I personally do not view one as better than the other.  In my simple world, they are simply different....however material or immaterial.

First I say go for it and don't look back. Thats what I'm doing and there is a lot more out there than you think.

 

Jim has given you great information. To add to it about MTH, PS3 can be ran by DCC, DCS,AC and DC power. The one big downfall about DCC is it gets exspensive nice sounds though. I was looking at maybe getting an NCE system but with everything you need it was close to a grand.

 

John Sethian has been running 2rail with MTH's DCS sytstem for quite a while now. You should check it out.

 

There is also alot of 2rail stuff on ebay. There are a few good 2rail magazines out there to help you along your journey. I get Oscale trains and it's been a great help in finding all the detail parts you want. I've gotten bitten by this bug pretty well that my wife just looks at me and shakes her head when I find new detail parts.

 

The biggest thing is have fun!

 

Ralph

 

Quote - As for building, you don't really have to build much.   You probably do have to put a little more effort into the track.   There is no sectional 2 rail that  I know of.

 

 

Atlas makes a line of sectional 2-rail track. I've used it on a layout--it's a quality product.

 

Jeff C

 

 

Ralph,

 

Does your store have a website?  Would you pass it on?

I travel through PA often to and from project sites and usually stay over with friends in Wiles-Barre on the to and or from travels.

 

I am currently in Fargo, ND and there are no hobby shops within 100-miles so I have the opportunity to see anything in person.  So I have to shop via internet.

 

 

I wish we did have a website like other places. The owner is very old school in thinking. We have a lot of HO and O gauge (3rail). There just isn't a big enough market around us for 2rail equipment. I order all my detail stuff online also. We do carry MTH and can get alot of it easily.

 

There is a great 2rail show in Straussburg PA. O scale trains magazine has the dates for it and also they will announce it here.

 

But we are about an hour south of Wilkes-Barre on RT33. I'm usually there on a friday night for a few hours. My wife works nights so I have my girls alot.

 

If you have anyother questions about the store you can email me. It's in my profile.

 

Ralph

PRRJim was very helpful when I came to o scale from HO.  if you are interested in P48, feel free to send me an email.

Patrick

Another company with a lot of different items is Weaver. Although some would say the loco are not as scale as Atlas Masterline they are every bit as good as Atlas Trainmaster. Another company is P&D Hobby out of Michigan. A real good store to contact is Caboose Stop Hobbies in Cedar Falls, IA. Merlin is an expert at O scale. See Valley Models for buildings, hundreds. It is a great hobby, it doesn't really matter which type of O you pick but------ if the good Lord wanted trains to run on a third he would have put it there. @ rail rules to me.

Dick

The greater realism off 2-rail comes with a steep price in minimum curve radius. This can be seen in the minimum radius requirements of recent Sunset 3rd rail steam loco offerings. The CN/GTW 4-8-4 in 2-rail needed a 56" minimum radius curve--the 3-rail version of the engine was advertised as being able to negotiate an 054 curve (27" radius). 

 

Jeff C

There is also an online magazine called O Scale Resource (http://oscaleresource.com/) plus there are back issues of O Scale Trains are online.  The Proto 48 web site features modeling articles that are not necessarily just about the track gauge.

 

Charlie 

 I would just add that I run DCS in two rail also, along with some more guys here. There have been some great posts made here in the past, describing the benefits of two rail track towards realism. Much equipment out there now is RTR. (ready to run)

 3RS is a growing section and has it's merits. I wouldn't talk you out of it. It is easier for you to go full two rail now because it sounds like you are just starting? Many others have too much invested in three rail equipment, and go 3RS.

 Hope you have fun and get a chance to compare everything you'd like before starting.

These days with Atlas O, Weaver, 3rd Rail and several other suppliers O scale 2 rail has so much available it is as easy as HO scale to buy what you want. If you are on a budget and or like to build everything, all of that is available too, take a quick look and ebay and you will be over whelmed. All the same principles apply to building a quality layout and trains that operate properly. 48" radius is best or more, good metal wheelsets, kadee couplers, take your time and build good trackwork. My thoughts-

 

ncng

At the recent Cleveland 2 Rail show, most used 2 rail rolling stock was very inexpensive, picking up a bunch of used cars(steam era) for $10-$20 a piece is pretty easy to do. 

I picked up a bunch (more modern) off the bay for $10 a car and he shipped for free to boot!

Keep us posted.

As far as 2-rail track goes, considering I am starting from absolute scratch with just an empty barn and a 3rd-planit software design program, which brand of 2-rail track provides the best looking and operating characteristics?  The design program has lists of track mfgs to select from when planning.  The wooden ties seem like a really nice option visually, but I am not married to the idea.  I assume I will be using much larger radii as JeffC pointed out.

I downloaded the "Guide to Modern O-Scale" e-book which, states that 70"+ radii is the best for 2-rail.  I will have the space, but that seems pretty huge, would that be for large locomotives such as Challengers, Big Boys etc?

The larger the radii, the better for appearance.  If you have the room, 72" radius will allow running anything -- 4-10-2, Pullmans w/diaphragms, etc.  I run these on 60" radius, but that is a minimum without compromising mechanisms and couplings. For instance, Sunset 3d Rail 2 rail steamers are made to run on much sharper curves than this because they are also designed to run on 3 rail layouts at some sacrifice of true to scale.

 

Charlie

 

 

I would definitely use large radius curves when possible, but it is also important to have a track plan and operating scheme that will hold your interest...and there will be a different answer for different people based on how those two concepts interact.

 

i couldn't possibly fit a larger radius than 36" in my small layout space, and even allowing for that, my options are limited to a large out-and-back switching operation. 

 

Jeff C

The number one question that only you can answer is, "What in the hobby of model railroading gives you the most pleasure?"  The best thing you can do is visit as many diverse layouts that you can 2 rail 3 rail narrow gauge HO Sn3  etc and see how those railroads operate and you may discover what you really want to do.

 

Larry

You might find your answer by studying photos posted here.  If you like the looks of that center rail, then 3- rail Scale might be your answer.  If you do not like it, or prefer realistic looking track, then 2- rail is the answer.  There are no technical reasons for the wider radii in  2- rail other than our desire for more accurate running gear.  You can use undersize cylinders, blind drivers, and missing tailbeams in 2- rail just as easily as in 3-rail.  You can couple cars ten feet apart, and go around corners in 2- rail.

 

It is up to you, not us.  Choose what you like.

This subject comes up regularly. Most of the same viewpoints are repeated. In the end we rarely know whether any of the discussion produced meaningful action by the original poster. Building in 2rail requires a significant commitment of time and resources, not to mention the value of enduring interest on the part of the builder. It is a hobby, but to build a well conceived model railroad takes a steady effort over a long period of time, especially if one works alone. Chose a scale wisely, and develop a careful plan to recreate the railroad visions you personally admire most…then get to work. My good friend and Mentor Ben Brown built a wonderful O scale 2r layout in his basement over a 45 year span…when I asked how he simply said, “by working on it everyday”!

 

Bob

It's all up to you, do you want absolute prototypical accuracy in your trains? Then Proto:48. If you want realism, 2 rails, and rtr models, with great detail minus that few thousandth of an inch wider wheels, and the few thousandths of an inch gauge difference. Then Standard 2 rail is your answer(don't forget you can run .115" wheels either!). If the third rail doesn't bother you. Run 3 rail. I'm in the middle between 3 rail and standard 2 rail. I like the features of 3 rail but I also like the 2 rails. Like almost everyone here, it's your decision.

put up a 1x8 or so on some shelf brackets, maybe even try to turn a corner (two walls), lay down some 2 rail track, run a 3 car train, w short engine(2 rail of course) and short 40' cars, take it up, lay down some 3 rail track, repeat( w 3 rail engine) and see which you like. Could be done in a hour or two, and you'll have your answer.

 

Thank you all for the insights.

I am also looking at the pros and cons of replacing trucks each time and some electronic changes that have to be made to a brand new locomotive that does not happen to be 3/2 convertible right out of the box.  I found a topic that included a man named Joe in MD who does this and judging from the number of recommendations he receives, he must be the right man for this work.  There is one or two locomotives that I wish to purchase that are not "switch-flick" convertible and they are the main characters in the show, given I have now decided on a main line and branch type to pursue.

 

The conversion requirement is certainly not a deal breaker as only one of the two would need this service (so far).  Taking the advice of David, I looked for and found some great deals on freight car kits and 1 nice Pullman kit with interior on ebay.  I was looking for something to build anyway. All very reasonable and now I have something to build.

 

I asked previously about recommendations for purchasing track for the best performance and looks, if such a delightful duo exists.  There are quite a few to choose from and I have read good and bad things about most of them in the various posts in several different groups.  I guess what I would be looking for is a good push in the right direction or help narrowing it down to 2 or 3 brands.

 

Being a wood carver, wood turner and furniture maker, I really like the wood ties over the plastic, but, if a plastic tie brand is overall a better track for performance, installation (not necessarily ease of) and durability then I would have to say the wood takes a back seat.  If I am so fortunate as to have both qualities in one mfg then I say "yeah me".

Alot of the fun of 2rail for me is the building and detailing engines, cars and everything else. I like to make it look right.

 

Like you I've been a cabinetmaker for the past 27 years. I've done my share of turning not as much carving some furniture and a heck of alot of kitchens, built ins, fireplace mantels and a bunch of other odd things. 95% of our work goes to NY. I work in a small three man shop where we do it right and not slap it toghether.

 

So I understand where your coming from to want to build stuff. I have built my own 3rail switches which was fun and I plan on doing it for my 2rail now. With one less rail it should be easier. Bass is the best for ties. I've kept alot scraps to make my own.

 

Good Luck and have fun!

 

Ralph

I have 52 inch minimum radius on my mainline and 48 on a branch.   I think 48 inch is a good minimum to shoot for if you stay away from modern stuff and large steamers.   I most 4 axle diesels and any 40 ft car will handle 48 inch radius with ease.    Most older USH brass engines will also handle 52 inch and the smaller ones 48.   Probably most older brass such USH steamers up to a mountain (4-8-2) would get by on 52 or 54 inch minimums.

 

I model Pennsy and their mountains, mikados, and decapods do just fine on it.   I also have a set of the GGD E7s and a bunch of the GGD full size PRR passenger cars and they have no problem with 52 inch radius.   I have run the E7s up the branch too, just to see.   

 

I think most of the Weaver Brass engines would do just fine, but do that the longer pilot decks to account for 3-rail.   I have not noticed that on Sunset engines.

Also, as an addition, the MTH and other Diecast steamers with solid side rods, the ones connect all the drivers to each other, will NOT handle very sharp curves.   All the Brass locos I have seen have side rods with a joint at each crank pin, which allows a little sideplay for the drivers to accomodate curves.   

 I don't have much huge radius curves. I do run Alleghenies so my outside mainline is bigger. Going into my engine terminal, I have my sharpest radii and all my engines make it.

 I would suggest that while making sidings and industrial area spurs, smaller radius is fine. Some guys run smaller engines in and out of these such as geeps or switchers anyways and then assemble the train for out on the main.

 I don't think you'd find a big steamer trying to switch into a tight siding in real life??

 Real wood ties sound great, however a lot of model RRs have plastic and are detailed so that I couldn't tell the difference. I guess it would be up to how much you'd enjoy laying your own track? It isn't that hard and is a part of the building process that is rewarding when done. I just ran Atlas flex to get something running and I'm happy still with that. There are more detailed brands RTR available. I think Atlas makes a good product of value  for the price.

 I would like to get the new RTR switches that were posted by a new manufacturer to compare.

http://signatureswitchco.com/

 

 

As an aside, I run both wood and plastic ties.  I like the wood better for appearance, but plastic is quieter by a bunch!  Surprised me!

I didn't see anyone mention it, but RC rechargeable battery power is also a viable power system. NO track wiring required. Check out Andy Romanos pike "The Ironbound RR" here ion the forum:

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...-on-the-ironbound-rr

 

also:

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...-with-battery-power-

 

Above all, take your time and investigate and make a wise decision. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

There are tons of stuff out there for 2 rail O scale. Be patient and persistent and you will find it sooner or later.

 

Simon

Bluebeard4590: I like MTH and have some of their engines. True they are not as prototypical as other importers of brass locomotives but their stuff runs good and is priced in my budget.

 

One thing you should know in case you decide to order one of their locomotives. Some but not all MTH locomotives are offered with "Scale Wheels". This means that the wheels will have a typical 2 Rail profile. If it has "Hi-Rail Wheels" then it has a typical 3 rail wheel profile. When it comes to steam locomotives if you acquire a steam locomotive with the "Hi-Rail Wheels" then you may have trouble with it going through typical 2 rail turnouts. The only way to fix this is to have Joe F in MD machine them down and, at least for me that is expensive.

 

With diesels there isn't as much of problem. The same thing exists: "Scale Wheels" refers to typical 2 rail wheel profile and "Hi-Rail Wheels" refers to typical 3 rail wheel profile. It isn't that bad because as long as the diesel is has 3/2 capability it is easy to change out the wheelsets. The only difference is if you should happen to acquire a "Hi-Rail Wheels" FM Trainmaster or a GP7 or anything with handrails the handrails will not be full length and what they call the "pilot" will be swinging. This is the part below the walkway on the front and rear of the locomotive. They do this so the 3 rail versions can take very tight curves. IMHO, this looks terrible and very unrealistic. You can always modify the locomotive to make it more realistic as some 3 Rail Scale modelers have done on the 3RS forum but my point is if you can score the "Scale Wheels" version it will all be done for you.

Some of the best basic advice provided.

If you want to go the 2 rail route, make sure you keep up to date with new product announcements and PRE ORDER the product - especially for locomotives.  Most manufacturers I know of, including Atlas, MTH, and Sunset/GGD, base their 2 rail production quantities on the number of pre orders.  Thus, if you don't get you order in by the closing date it may be very difficult to acquire one later.  Keep in mind that this requires some patience - I have had some engines on order for years - and sometimes some stumbles - there's nothing like having an engine you want on pre order for years, only to have it cancelled at the last minute.  2 rail freight cars are easier, since there always appears to be some Atlas and Weaver stuff floating around, even at a 3 rail show like York.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacturers try to lower freight car production runs as well.

there is a lot of advices here.

now I have a question for you.

What are you afraid of?

Andre.

I don't follow.

How does "fear" enter into a decision of model railroad configuration?

Unless you think you are being clever, in which case, you landed far from your mark.

 

 

I use Microscale Engineering two rail track, It comes in sections, 3 ft If I remember correctly. There are various "heights" that correspond to mainline rail, branch line, etc. I wanted to get up and running and did not want to take the time to hand lay track. Hand laid track does look better though, but the appearance of sectional track is improved when ballasted.

For power supplies, I use MRC Control 20 DC packs. The late ones are rated 100VA, and will go up to 18 volts for use of locomotives with sound systems such as MTH 2-3 locomotives.

If you have the room, try to use a minimum radius of at least 60". (Historically, the use of a 60" or greater radius will allow you to run "anything", including a Big Boy. BUT, you must check "overhang" on curves to make sure the engine doesn't hit scenery or something on an adjacent track, assuming you have adjacent trackage.) All of my brass engines will operate well on 60" radius. (I have no two rail articulateds, but a long wheelbase 2 or 3 cylinder locomotive such as a UP 4-12-2 might not operate well on 60". The minimum radius an engine will traverse is usually noted on the box.)

For my MTH 2-3 locomotives, I use their proprietary DCS system which permits me to access all of the features built into their locomotives. While a proprietary system has some disadvantages, there are enough of these "out there" and in use by both 2 rail but mostly 3 rail users that the risk of obsolescence is quite low. And the MTH 2-3 locomotives will also operate "conventionally" anyway, using either a DC or an AC transformer (power source). With the use of DCS, I don't have to trim/adjust each decoder to run each locomotive, a necessity if you operate multiple diesel units together from different builders.

While I like and favor two rail, my minimum curve radius permits a three rail layout "inside" of the two rail. Since I could not make a choice, I decided on BOTH! That decision lets me run a lot of older three rail engines and cars. For rolling stock, I favor cars that can be either 2 rail or 3 rail, by changing trucks and couplers.

I hope that this info helps you. This is a great hobby, and I think that you will enjoy it very much.

Sorry if I expressed myself wrongly.

AG.

No Andre wasn't busting your chops, I think it was more a matter of what if any reservations you may have, hesitations ect.  Andre is a stand up guy.

 

As for what to do, my suggestion would be to view as many options as you can, Ow5, proto 48 ect and see what really captures your interest the most, what your drawn to.  For myself I went Ow5 and have been hand laying, code .148 for the main lines and code .125 for my sidings and coaling/TT area.  I have also been incorporating tie plates, joint bars and so on...I'm all about the details.  Do the research, take your time, ask questions and when your ready, pull the trigger and let the adventure begin.