Converting Lionel heavyweights to close coupled kadees

Thanks for the inspiration!  My Lionel 18" aluminum Hiawatha arrived several weeks ago and I was dismayed by the huge gaps between the diaphragms.  The cars are a mixed blessing:  The carbodies are beautiful - gorgeous - fantastic, they're even equipped with LED lighting; the trucks are sprung and the equalizing bars actually work!  The problems are the gaps between cars and the fact that the coach and dining car interiors are wrong, dead wrong - partitions and cabinets are located in mid-window... disgusting.  Lionel won't replace the interiors but I'll modify them with my handy Sawzall and fix the gaps using your patented technique.

Not wanting to be restricted to 2 degree curves, I was contemplating mounting Kadees on the Lionel drawbars instead of carbody to engineer greater flexibility.  I was measuring both and had concluded that it was doable when I finally hit upon and entered the magic search criteria on the Forum search engine and found your article!  I sure felt a whole lot more comfortable about butchering some very expensive equipment knowing that you had done it successfully and so successfully - your photos and videos are truly "inspirational".

Instead of grinding off the Lionel rivets, I used a 7/64 drill bit to drill them out which made a very neat job of it.  Having experimented with increasingly larger drill bits, I found that the 7/64 is the size of the existing hole and also made a good fit for a 4-40 machine screw to hold the Kadee in place.  After removing the claw and associated stuff, I cut the drawbar off just past the first hole and fitted the draft gear for a Kadee 742 in the newly vacated space, lining up the Kadee center hole with the Lionel second hole.  Drilling out the center hole in the draft gear to fit the 4-40 screw removes the plastic bushing but the 4-40 machine screw is the same size and serves the same purpose to hold drawbar, spring and lid in place.

The knuckle-side of the Lionel drawbar needed to be removed to match the inboard cut line on the off-side, and the off-side needed to have some material removed, too, to admit the Kadee draft gear.  However, the Dremel tool made short work of both.  I had hoped to use Kadee 740 couplers but the degree to which the draft gear must be modified precluded the use of the use of metal.  It took all of about three minutes to filed down the sides of the plastic Kadee draft gear to get a nice, snug fit.

By cutting off the Lionel drawbar just inboard of the "first hole", the lip on the top of the Kadee draft gear fits perfectly against the fresh cut while the center hole on the Kadee draft gear aligns perfectly with the "second hole" on the Lionel drawbar, and a 3/8" 4-40 machine screw is the perfect length to accommodate installation of a nut.  Since the floor/frame of the cars is indented upward at the end of each car, there is plenty of clearance for the nut atop the Lionel drawbar without any fitting, filing or fussing.  The couplers match up with the Kadee coupler gauge perfectly without any adjustment whatsoever.

I've completed my first car, the Skytop Obs, and all measurements indicate that the diaphragms will merely "kiss" when a coupling is made and that draft gear spring tension will have the striker plates barely touching on tangent track.  It'll be interesting to see what degree of curve they can handle and, just like the real thing, I'll have to wind on a good handbrake to ensure a good, solid "buff" for coupling and uncoupling.

Following surgery to rearrange the interior of a coach, a second car should be completed early this week and I'll post photos of the results.  Thanks, again!

Glad you gave this a try.

Would love to see pictures of the finished cars.

Ron H

Great stuff Ron!

Tell ya what...I'm going to crack a cold one to celebrate!

Awesome!

I'll be doing this for a test on my K-Line cars, and probably make the switch across the board.

Thanks,

Mario

WARNING!  I have erred and greatly erred in that I posted the "wrong number" of the Kadee coupler package that I used successfully.  It was a combination the equivalent of a 745, medium centerset shank metal coupler with a plastic draft gear box http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page740_745.htm, NOT a 742.

The reason for my error was that I started out with the coupler from a 740 set but, after failing to make the metal gear box work, grabbed the first plastic replacement I spotted in my well organized inventory of Kadee products ("the pile") which happened to be one from a 742 set.  Using  Common Core Math the formula is: 740 coupler + 742 draft gear box = 745.

I also failed to mention the fact that I used a 743 (short centerset) for the rear coupler on the Lionel Skytop.  It's a very nice fit with minimal work required to make it both work and look very good.  Simply use the draft gear box with it's "upper lip" placed firmly against the rear edge of the existing plastic "boss" to which the original dummy (coupler, not me) was attached and mark the location of the center hole; then drill & tap for a 2-56 machine screw.  The "boss" requires a very little filing to both smooth the mating surface and raise it to clear the gauge.  Some quick work with the file on the corners of the plastic draft gear box, prior to assembly and placement, will act to both conceal the gear box and maximize coupler swing.  Use the 2-56 and some CA glue to secure the gear box in place.  To ensure permanency, I freed the 2-56, manipulated a nut into place inside the carbody and used a little ingenuity to hold the nut in place while I tightened the entire assembly with a screwdriver from below.  A drop of CA, placed with a long snouted applicator on the exposed threads inside the carbody, locks the nut in place.

I've "scrubbed" and am now ready to perform surgery on the coach.  Photos to phollow, if I remember to take the camera...

Mario,

What made my assembly so easy was just screwing the kadee coupler with no draft box to the notched tang . A little blue locktight on the threads, will minimize maintenance of the couplers, ie, retightening.

On 3rail scale, due to so much custom work, I average probably 30 minutes maintenance for every hour or so of operations. This includes combined work on electronics, locos, rolling stock, switches and track.

I run my mainlines at track speeds of 65 to 90 scale mph and so there are forces at work on all parts. So just like the prototype of the 40s and 50s, maintenance is a big part, but I enjoy it.

Please sir I want some more videos... perhaps something along the lines of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRTYNxtbnjI

...Or, more appropriately, an 3 rail redux of "FLIGHT OF THE CENTURY!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcC9laB3UFU

If you are ever unsure about a Kadee coupler model number, contact them and they will recommend a model or models for a particular combination of cars.  I have done that and found them very helpful.

Ron H posted:

RT Holmes, How about this? Hope you can open it. Flying Hudsons.

Ron

My Movie.wlmp is a project file from Windows Live Movie Maker.  It is an xml file that points to the actual movie files.  It does not contain your movie.  You need to save or export the movie as a .wmv file and upload that.

Looking forward to the show . . .

Bob

R T Holmes and others.

This is a video I posted years ago dbl headed hudsons making up time. These guys really pound the rail at speed. I hope this is what RT wanted to see.

Ron

Great idea "just screwing the kadee coupler with no draft box to the notched tang."  Sounds like a quick and easy install  and you don't have to worry so much about curve radius.  And it's pretty hard to tell that these are not body mounted Kadees.  It's a big improvement in car spacing for sure.

I watched your video.  I'm pretty sure I could feel the air blast by me . . . 

Bob

Have you tried backing these through a crossover or around a 099 curve?

No I haven't, but have through # 6 turnouts in cross over configuration. I do not know the radius of the switches. I think as long as the sides of the cars do not rub in a corner it's ok. However after adding realistic diaphragms that touch, the flex flexibility is diminished. S curves with long cars, some of mine are 21 inch, is touchy without very broad curves.

HUMMA! HUMMA! HUMMA!

Here she comes look at her roll
There she goes eating that coal
Watch her fly look at her sail
Let her by by by the fireball mail!

Ron,

Glad to see the Masterpiece Hudson rolling along in all its beauty!

Would you mind adding a picture of your installed kadee coupling (mounted) from the same angle of your previous coupling pictures?

Thanks,

Gerry

Ron H posted:

No I haven't, but have through # 6 turnouts in cross over configuration. I do not know the radius of the switches. I think as long as the sides of the cars do not rub in a corner it's ok. However after adding realistic diaphragms that touch, the flex flexibility is diminished. S curves with long cars, some of mine are 21 inch, is touchy without very broad curves.

Ron, If the diaphrams do not have plastic buffer plates you might want to consider adding them. They will allow the diaphrams to slide without catching. Experiment with their width on your tightest curve and you might want to make them slightly wider in case they move off each other. My shorter F3s with truck mounted kadees have touching diaphrams and easily negotiate 042 S curves.

Pete

Norton posted:

 

Ron, If the diaphrams do not have plastic buffer plates you might want to consider adding them. They will allow the diaphrams to slide without catching. Experiment with their width on your tightest curve and you might want to make them slightly wider in case they move off each other. My shorter F3s with truck mounted kadees have touching diaphrams and easily negotiate 042 S curves.

Pete

Pete,

How did you mount the buffer plates to the diaphragms?  Or did you replace them with a different part altogether?

Thanks,

Mario

Mario, In my case the F3s came with plastic buffer plates. I also have 3rd party (Precision Scale)  diaphrams that came with plastic buffer plates but they would not be hard to fabricate from thin styrene. The newer MTH heavyweights also come with plastic buffer plates now. Not sure if you can get them as a separate item with out the rubber diaphrams though.

Pete

Hi Jerry.

I love the masterpiece Hudson, with ERR cruise it is among the smoothest of my locos. The drivers are sprung just right.  I hope you saw the series I did on super detailing it to bring it to almost KOHS detail.

Also, here are the shots of the mounted Kadees. Full disclosure, one has to grind down the bolt and nut up against the car frame so it doesn't rub. I figured most people doing this would see the necessity. Also, for others, I body mount kadees to my 21 inch K-Lines, MTH heavy and light weights and to all GGD heavyweights.

That sure is some great looking work! I am glad Doug (Laidoffsick) pointed me in your direction when I had a question about putting Kadee's on my Amtrak cars. What a great bunch of people here! One question, why is one shank screwed near the head, and the other near the tail? What do you use as a gauge to line them up with on the end of the car?

We all miss Doug. He added so much value to this forum.

He sure did, He told me how to do a fix pilot on my MTH Dash 8. Also I learned so much watching his videos

Mike, I need to adjust the shank sticking out further. These cars are pulled at fairly high speeds and maintenance is required. I've been so busy on other projects, I just haven't taken the time. I will be converting the other half of my railroad to Atlas code 148 2 rail with an N gauge center rail and adding a center of the room engine terminal and reefer terminal. Now everything is torn up in preparation. I can't even get to the track work until I finish the super detailing and painting of my cab forward. I love retirement, no hurry, no worry regarding the trains.

Oh ok, I see what your talking about. so you just kind of line it up same as if it had a box? Cant wait to get started, I have only 5 cars to do.

Ron H posted:

Hi Jerry.

I love the masterpiece Hudson, with ERR cruise it is among the smoothest of my locos. The drivers are sprung just right.  I hope you saw the series I did on super detailing it to bring it to almost KOHS detail.

Also, here are the shots of the mounted Kadees. Full disclosure, one has to grind down the bolt and nut up against the car frame so it doesn't rub. I figured most people doing this would see the necessity. Also, for others, I body mount kadees to my 21 inch K-Lines, MTH heavy and light weights and to all GGD heavyweights.

 

Just for S&G, do they line up with the Kadee coupler gauge at this height?

I can't wait to do these on my Lionel and K-line fleet! (A few MTH too!)

Thanks,

Mario

Mario,

 Yes indeed, every car I do has to line up with the Kadee gauge, plus or minus a mm. The K-line and Lionels pretty much do this with out shims, but one should always check. Also I have no grades beyond 1%. 

Ron

Thanks, Ron!

I was just thinking... 

There was an article a long, long time ago in MR where the individual bent the Kadee trip pins in an "L" shape to simulate the steam lines, instead of air hoses. Anyone want to try that on these cars?  Before I do, that is. 

Thanks,

Mario