Converting Lionel heavyweights to close coupled kadees

They pretty much look like hanging air hoses from the side.  I think I would add separate steam lines. But, that's just me.

Ron

Hello Ron.  In the words of Samwise Gamgee, "Well, I'm back."  The surgery to relocate the Men's Lounge partition from the middle of the coach window took longer than anticipated, then life got in the way.  Here is my corrected and condensed version of the process and the promised photos:

Instead of grinding off the Lionel rivets, use a 7/64 drill bit to drill them out which made a very neat job of it, does not enlarge the existing hole but is good fit for the 3/8ths inch long 4-40 machine screw which will hold the Kadee in place.  After removing the claw and associated stuff, cut the drawbar off just past the first hole, trim the steel from the knuckle-side of the Lionel drawbar to match the factory cut line on the off-side and remove all remaining steel from underside of the drawbar from that factory cut line to the outboard end of the "tang".

  Next fit the draft gear for a Kadee 745 in the newly vacated space, lining up the Kadee center hole with the Lionel second hole.  Remove the plastic "loops" from the sides of the Kadee gear box but leave the rear "loop" as it will butt up against the upturned steel tab that formerly held Lionel uncoupling gear in place and make a perfect fit.  A file makes short work of notching and inletting the the draft gear.  Drill out the center hole in the draft gear box with the 7/64 bit, this removes the plastic center bushing but the 4-40 machine screw is the same size and will serve the same purpose plus hold drawbar, spring and lid in place.

By cutting off the Lionel drawbar just inboard of the "first hole", the lip on the top of the Kadee draft gear box fits perfectly against the fresh cut while the center hole on the Kadee draft gear aligns perfectly with the "second hole" on the Lionel drawbar, and a 3/8 in long 4-40 machine screw is the perfect length to accommodate installation of a nut.  Since the floor/frame of the cars is indented upward at the end of each car, there is plenty of clearance for the nut atop the Lionel drawbar without any fitting, filing or fussing.  The couplers match up with the Kadee coupler gauge perfectly every time.

Once a truck has been freed from the carbody, the entire process takes about 10 minutes per installation.

Rapid, I have a question,

How do the cars work on the track running with the ends so close together?

RTH,

Very elegant work. I just kinda went in and did it without a lot of thought. I've still got more to do and will give it a try.

Thanks for the explanation.

Mike G,  I have very broad curves 0-120 minimum so close coupling is no issue. I suspect that on smaller radius track and especially turnouts that create a short S curve could be problematic. You would have to experiment .

Question, has either of you done MTH Amtrack cars, if so whats the best way to convert to Kadee's?

Mike, I've done MTH premium ATSF passenger cars and they are ,I imagine, pretty close to the Amtrak cars The mounting is completely different and I'll shoot some pics. looks like I cut the coupler tangs off and body mounted the Kadees. If you don't have broad curves you'll have to experiment.

Ron 

I don't have my layout started as of yet. I have to build the addition on first. Then the layout will come. I plan on having 0-72 inner loop and 0-80 outer loop, with an 0-72 loop in the middle for a oil filling depot.

Mike,

I've only "processed" one MTH MILW Super Dome which was bought to stand in for the ludicrous Vista Dome Lionel included in the Olympian set.  Though it's not very pretty, I followed Ron's solution more closely than my own.  However, having done this in 1:1, obtained FRA approval and moved cars over CR using the same design, I had some confidence that it would work.

Using one of those half-height MTH dummy couplers, I simply did some surgery to create a "tang"; measured to ensure that the knuckle pin of a Kadee 747 Medium Underset would line up just inside of the buffer plate; then drilled, tapped and bolted the Kadee to the underside of the "tang" using two 2-56 machine screws.  Getting the coupler to align with the gauge took some filing but it now matches up with the Lionel cars and that was the goal.  I'm not a fan of most MTH passenger equipment and the Super Dome purchase was unique.  Perhaps Atlas will come out with a Hiawatha when they've finished with the CZ...

Best of luck and Happy Railroading,

RTH

RTH, Thanks for the information. I am guessing from what you said that Kadee 740's will be to short? If I am wrong please let me know, as I have enough to do the set in 740 but would have to get the 747's if needed.

Hello, Mike.

The 740 and the 747 are both "Medium" length drawbar couplers.  It's not the length of the drawbar that's at issue, it's the height.  MTH builds their truck-coupler sets with the drawbar at approximately the correct height which is swell until you want to replace The Claw with a Kadee.  In a perfect world, either Kadee, MTH or both would make a replacement drawbar with a built-in Kadee draft gear box but it hasn't happened, yet.  If you bolt a 740 on top of an MTH drawbar it's too high and the Kadee drawbar will hit the underside of the carbody; if you bolt it to the bottom of the MTH drawbar it's too low; therefore, an offset is required and the 747 is the closest thing available.

Looking at my own photos, it now occurs to me that an MTH "full height" dummy coupler drawbar might be adapted to the purpose.  If the coupler head was sawn off at the proper length and then the drawbar slotted at the correct height, perhaps a Kadee 740 drawbar might be inserted in the slot and bolted in place.  Thanks for the idea!  Having decided to re-truck a 21" K-line Super Dome with MTH three axle trucks and I will give it a try.

Perhaps Ron has some ideas on the subject.

RTH Thanks for the information. If you do try it before me please let me know how it turns out, and if possible take a few photos.

I just body mount them guys. Use a piece of wood epoxied to the frame that yields the correct height, drill and screw them in.

Well RTH & RON, I did my first car today. here is what it loos like. It meets up perfect with the gauge. When I get another car done, I will take a few more pictures with them together.

Super!

Hi Ron, NOT SO SUPER!

Rule number 1. When trying to retrofit couplers, don't get cocky!

Rule number 2. Never forget rule number one! LOL I was doing ok, when I broke the coupler attachment that I screw the Kadee to.

  So now I am going to go back and do like you said last night and body mount them all. I just hope they give me enough throw between cars. if not I will be redoing them.

This is how I do my MTH passenger cars. There is not enough lateral movement with the 805s I use for even an 072 curve.

Hi Ron,

Here is what I came up with. You had me thinking about the curves, so I opted not for the body mount. I took the parts I had left over and came up with this. I know its not great, but it should work. They meet the height gauge and don't look to bad either.

Mike,

Sure hope that works for you. Looks nice.

Ron

Hi Ron, Thanks for the support.

 If I can get my hands on the small piece that I broke, I still plan on doing it like in the very first picture I posted on here so I can have the return to center action. Just have to find one first.

Mike, Let me see If I have some pieces to send you.

Ron

Just sent you an E-Mail Ron.

Mike, sent you e mail with pictures. Yours if you want em.

Mike, I would suggest bolting these on through a clean hole. Very tiny machine screw and nut. These are cheap castings and I think tapping them creates stress cracks. IMHO

Thanks Ron, That's what I did last time, I just shaved to much off. This time I think I will use my drill press and a milling bit instead of the grinder.

Mike,

Mailed the couplers at 2:00 central time. When you get them just put the 3 bucks postage in an envelope and mail to my return address on the shipping box.

Good Luck,

Ron

You got it Ron, I will send it off as soon as I get your return address. Thank you so very much. I found a milling bit for my drill press and I think that will work much better, but to be sure I am going to try it on a different style coupler but same material.

Just tagging this to keep it fresh!

I want to start on the Kadee conversion of a CommVan set to match the work I’m doing on that Loco. 

Thanks!

-Mario

Mario,

Thanks for the refresh.

Ron H

great thread...which Amfleet cars are pictured? I have the oldest MTH set with the well written about disintegrating couplings. Always wanted to kadee them. 

Came up with this method years ago when 3RS was a baby.   First is the K-Line conversion.   Using 5/16 X 5/32 brass rectangular tube.  Tube cut to length and notched on the end for the wide part of the coupler shank.  Hole drilled for a small screw to hold the coupler in place.   Then a hole drilled at the pivot end to mount the tube to the centering T bar mount. 2 brass tubes soldered on to align with the T bar. One of the hardest parts was to figure out the length of the tube and coupler so the cars don't bind in the curves.  I run an 072 minimum.

The GGD 21" heavy weights were a challenge.   The cars came out in batches over a few years time.  Combine, coaches, sleepers, diner and observation.  Ended up with a 9 car set.  Seems like they came out in 2s and 3s.

Challenge was that Scott made improvements with each batch of cars.  The truck sheet metal changed.  The mounting method and placement of the 3 rail couplers changed.  At least 3 versions.   The combine with no vestibule was unique.  

Used similar method as with the L-Line.   Coming up with a spacer for proper coupler height is the trick. 

This was the last car I just finished.  Used Evergreen plastic tube on this one.  Ran out of the brass tube.  Probably why iit wasn't done then.

t

The centering spring is attached to a screw at the end of the brass rectangular tube.

One of the first cars out. Combine. The truck sheet metal changes.

The Weaver headend cars I run with this train have body mounted couplers.

Forgot the video. 

Look great Joe !