Cost of DCC in 3 rail

I never gave it much thought before the recent announcement from Lionel.

But now.....why don't we look in this direction?

I'm in .....just don't know where to start.

Dave

In addition.  I posted on another thread but doing so here as well may be the better place.

Can someone post a video of a 3 rail engine in O running on DCC?

Thanks

Dave

https://ogrforum.com/...-their-3-rail-trains

video https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

After watching the video I am thinking about getting into this with my current mth engines. I am assuming TIU wouldn't be needed?

Hi fellow OGR Members: This video is from my YouTube Channel and I do brief introduction to DCC.  All MTH Premier Locomotive are DCC ready. (Scale Wheel Models)

The number one down side to DCC, you will lose the automatic couplers on the front and rear of the locomotive.  Also you are going to want to replace the trucks with Hi-rail wheels.

If I have any of this information wrong, please let me know.  I am not a big fan of DCC, the hand held remote is very complex and their are two separate systems for the Wi-Fi, one for Apple and one for Android.

I will be staying with MTH DCS handheld remote and MTH DCS Wi-Fi. I am 100% satisfied with the Premium App on an iPhone 7 Plus.

Hope this helps: Gary

Good video...great start.  Certainly did not know about this capability.

I wonder as well about the TIU...he makes no mention.

And....was that a remote to the right of the base unit?  The power must also be independent of the base unit.

So another question would  be:

If one took a can motored engine (conventional),  what and how much would you need to bring it to the place of performance that the MTH engine displayed?

HI again: Below is the starter system for DCC.

Great for HO  /  N  /  O Scale 2-rail  /  I would not recommend this for 3-rail trains.

Stay with MTH - DCS or Lionel TMCC  • Legacy  • LionChief Plus

Hope this helps: Gary

I have a good friend who has a 3 rail Western Maryland based layout that is run with DCC.    He uses the NCE system listed above.   

There are 5 common DCC systems that are in use in the USA that I know of.   I think there are a couple more in Europe I think.     These are NCE (NorthCoast Engineering, Digitax, Lenz,, CVP (EasyDCC), and MRC.     They all work with all the NMRA standard receivers in locos.    None of these make models, only electronics as far as I know.     So there objective would be to stay in business.     Since DCC was first introduced, the control signal has stayed the same, and everything has been upward compatible.    Many, many features and sound and stuff have been added, but if you have a loco from the 90s with DCC, it will still run just as well on a new system today. 

The throttles are all slightly different for each but accomplish the same things.    Most have a smaller throttle often called an Engineer Throttle or something similar that does not have all the programming features of the master throttle, and is just for acquiring and running locos.     Digitrax for example has  one with a large knob and center off toggle for reversing.    4 little wheels to pick the address and 4/8 function buttons.   It is very simple to use.   NCE also has simple smaller throttles.    You can't program with the smaller ones but you can do all the operating stuff.

AS for the couplers, You would not have to give up that feature - I think.    All the better decoders (receivers) have multiple function outputs that you can program to do what ever you want.    Turn on lights, throw switches, flash ditch lights, and I don't know why not the couplers.   It would depend on the requred amperage.     NCE has an "O size" decoder model D408SR which has 6-8 such functions plus the headlight/backup light and motor control    This does not have sound but will hand 4 amps continuous and 10 amps stall (surge).    It does not have sound and lists for about $60.    

There is not reason to change wheels if you are staying with 3 rail track - track wiring to decoder is the same.   

There are sound decoders available from a few mfg also, and generally cost about twice as much.

I run many open frame motors on my layout with NCE D408SR.

By the way, the decoders and throttles do not have to be from the same maker,   I have a digitrax system, but mostly NCE decoders.

rboatertoo posted:

https://ogrforum.com/...-their-3-rail-trains

video https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

 

After watching the video I am thinking about getting into this with my current mth engines. I am assuming TIU wouldn't be needed?

Long time lurker here.   I've been going down this same road for about 6 months now as I prepare for my final layout build.  My plan is to initially start with DCC, although I will probably migrate to wireless ethernet with track power, then finally to wireless ethernet with battery power later on. 

TIU is not needed. You'd just need a DCC system with adequate power for what you will be running.  (Just like any of the other systems you've used, but since DCC is utilized on all gauges, you'll see systems that only have 1.5 amps of power. Good enough for "N", not enough for "O") 

One of the great things about MTH is that they have exposed nearly all, if not all, of an engines features into the DCC function set.  Most every PS3 engine I've seen has all 28 functions enabled to some feature on the engine.  

If you have a 3 rail MTH premier loco with PS3 you can run it in DCC mode and get all of the functionality of the logo including the electro couplers. 

Digitrax I believe makes a decoder for open frame ac motors that will work in o scale. In my opinion, DCC is a vastly superior command system to the 3 rail systems as it follows a universal standard and all manufacturers locos and deciders play well with each other

prrjim posted:

 

AS for the couplers, You would not have to give up that feature - I think.    All the better decoders (receivers) have multiple function outputs that you can program to do what ever you want.    Turn on lights, throw switches, flash ditch lights, and I don't know why not the couplers.  

Yea, that should be no problem.  I've seen others wire couplers to their installed decoders.

MTH has their PS3 engines mapped to DCC F7 for front coupler, F8 for back coupler, F22 for coupler slack, and F23 for coupler close.  

For those into electrics, the pantographs are mapped to DCC functions as well. 

trainroomgary posted:

The number one down side to DCC, you will lose the automatic couplers on the front and rear of the locomotive.

Although I run kadees these days, you can run electrocouplers with most decoders. I have done so in the past.

I run the NCE PH10-R system mentioned above. I and everyone that has used it likes it, enough so that some of them have gone on to buy it for themselves. It is very easy to use, and basically 'just works'.

For DDC you will need the following:

1. Command station - 1 needed 
2. Hand held Controllers - 1 or more needed (sometimes built in to Command station)
3. Booster (some systems theses are built into the command station) - 1 or more needed
4. Power supply- 1 or more needed (Usually not included with DCC Booster)
5. Decoder(s) for locomotives - 1 or more needed

Power suppy:  Does it need it's own power supply for the track or  can you hook up  a brick or zwl?  

Several members of this forum are running DCC on 3-Rail (not me personally as I am a 2-railer that runs DCC) but DCC is just another form of command control and command control in various forms has been used on 3-Rail layouts for several decades so this DCC technology is not really new to the 3-Rail community.  That being said, DCC seems to have a bit of steeper learning curve as most of the 3-Rail command control systems seem to have a more “friendly” user interface.  However, if you are already familiar with one or more of the existing 3-Rail command control systems on the market, then DCC should be easier to come up to speed with than it would be for someone that just runs their 3-Rail trains on conventional AC.

Any of the major DCC system suppliers, e.g. NCE, Digitrax, ESU Loksound that can support the higher current draw demanded by the larger O scale locomotives can be used so there is no “perfect one size fits all DCC system for O scale DCC layouts”.  It all depends on what you intend to do with your layout.  Expect to pay around $400+ for a typical O scale-level DCC starter set.  Cost goes up if you want wireless throttles or larger booster capacity.    Here are some common questions you should ask yourself when choosing a DCC system:

• How many locos do wish run simultaneously and what is the total current draw (make sure to add in things like passenger cars that have internal lighting)?  If the current draw exceeds the rated booster capacity, then you can just buy more boosters and divide your layout up into multiple booster districts, which leads to the next bullet item. 
• Do you wish to divide up your layout into multiple booster districts and can the DCC system you choose support multiple boosters?   E.g., do you have a large basement empire that requires a lot of add-on power capability or just a spare bedrooms sized layout that may only need to booster that comes with the starter set?
• Do you want wireless control, or do you want to remain stationary, or is a tethered walkaround handheld cab good enough? 
• What DCC system interface are you most comfortable using (go try various DCC systems on other layouts, even if it is a different scale, e.g. HO or even N scale) and see if you like it? 
• Are there other users of the DCC system brand that you are thinking of getting in your area (even if it is in a different scale) that can help you out or are you comfortable just working through issues though online forums if you have problems?
• Are you willing to lose plug-n-play support for features like automatic couplers, animated rolling stock or animated lineside structures (note:  these can most likely be converted to work with DCC but may take a certain level of  electronic ingenuity, such adding a DCC stationary decoder and/or adding some extra circuitry, such as a transistor or relay).

The next piece of the DCC equation has to do with the decoders.  DCC is an open standard, so although the DCC system that you choose is pretty much a single-source acquisition, e.g. if you chose an XYZ brand system, then you are pretty much locked into only buying XYZ brand throttles and additional power boosters.  However, devices like automatic reversers and circuit breakers can be sourced from other 3^rd party suppliers and do not necessarily need to come from XYZ brand.  The locomotive decoders obviously can be sourced from any DCC decoder supplier, many DCC decoder suppliers do not even make complete systems, e.g. decoder suppliers like QSI and Soundtraxx come to mind.

Here are the items that pertain to decoders:

• The BIG decoder question, which also heavily impacts cost, is do you want sound or just motor / lighting control?  Sound decoders generally range from 2x to 4x more expensive than just motor/lighting decoders.  Sound decoders also require speaker(s) and speaker(s) sometimes require a speaker enclosure, which you may need to build yourself to fit your specific application.  If the loco is pre-equipped with sound, then you can reuse the existing speaker and just wire it up to the newly installed DCC sound decoder.  A motor/lighting decoder for typical dual motor 3-Rail locomotive run around $45  (NCE makes a good basic O scale capable decoder for this

https://www.hobbylinc.com/nce-...railroad-decoder-111)

• O scale-capable sound decoders vary from around $120-$200.   Also, an additional side expense that may need to be considered with sound decoders is a one-time purchase of a decoder programmer (~$100-$150) for that particular brand of sound decoder you are using, e.g. QSI, ESU.  Decoder programmers can significantly ease decoder programming and also allow you to freely upload different sound files if the decoder supports that sound file model.  Some sound decoders are preloaded with a full complement of supported sounds and you just change a programmable CV value to activate the prime mover sound that you want, e.g. SoundTraxx Tsunami2, TCS WOW Sound.
• Usually the hardest part of converting a locomotive is addressing the lighting and sound pieces.  Getting the loco to just run on DCC is easy, just two wires in from the track and two wires out to the motor and program the address and you have a working DCC loco.  Dealing with the lights (adding the right resistors, if necessary) or installing speaker(s) is the hard part.
• Lastly, steam locomotive conversions to DCC can become quite involved due to the decoder generally being installed in the tender with the motor, some lighting and possible additional speaker(s) located up in the locomotive makes  things more complex.  If you can reuse an existing wiring harness between the loco and tender, then that could save some significant DCC retrofit time, otherwise, you will need to make up with your own harness and source some plugs (various suppliers of RC hobby type plugs can be used).

Overall, DCC conversion on 3-Rail is very much doable; however, cost and time can add up quickly, especially when sound comes into the picture.  I would like to add that DCC sound quality and motor speed control is generally far and above the level which is supplied with the OEM 3-Rail closed-source sound-equipped models.  DCC sound quality especially, both in the recordings and the digital playback capability, continues to advance rapidly in the DCC open architecture than the 3-Rail closed architecture counterparts.   Motor control is already pretty much top-notch and it helps to control those 3-Rail jackrabbit starts by wiring the dual vertical motor commonly found on diesels in series instead of leaving them as the come from the factory wired in parallel.  DCC is not for everyone but it does have its advantages over closed-source architectures. 

 Scott

rboatertoo posted:

Power suppy:  Does it need it's own power supply for the track or  can you hook up  a brick or zwl?  

It depends on the DCC booster you go with. You might need to regulate the voltage and/or convert the AC to DC for the booster. 

So to summarize what I am reading switching to DCC is an expensive and somewhat complicated option.  What I liked about TMCC was one wire to the ground and you were done, no muss, no fuss.  ERR boards dropped right into WBB or others with no real challenge.  That will be missed.  To the folks who support DCS thanks for the response but that conversion is a non starter for me, the expense isn't worth the benefit, I will return to conventional before I do that.  There is a battery wireless system out there, Airwire I believe.  This also is an expensive alternative.  Maybe Lionel will unveil some new system that can be used for retrofits, I doubt it but perhaps they will.    

Plenty of great information Guys!

Very comprehensive write up Scott!

Will require time to process all this information

I have Legacy, DCS and DCS WiFi......so whats another system !

Thank You

Dave

Some questions for those in the know:

1.  Following on to RBoaterToo's question, is there a DCC system that is meant for AC that I can simply connect to the tracks and only provide track power by other means, such as a brick or Z4000, etc?  

2.  Is 4 amps the max power handling currently available?  I believe my trains sometimes draw more than 4 amps (e.g., non-LED passenger trains on grades).  

3.  Since it is used in the other gauges, I assume the DCC data signal goes to the outer rails, is that correct?

4.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, I assume that would mean you cannot use TMCC/Legacy simultaneously with DCC.  Correct?  

5.  My layout is fairly small, and I do have the star wiring pattern for DCS, so the center rail is cut making DCS districts.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, if I cut the outer rails at the same locations as the center rails, it seems that I could just apply the DCC data line at the output of the DSC TIU, thereby allowing DCS and DCC simultaneous operation.  Is the right?  Would need to also change fr0m the one wire Legacy connection to a connection of the Legacy data signal to the ground in each district.

Thanks!

pennsy484 posted:

Some questions for those in the know:

1.  Following on to RBoaterToo's question, is there a DCC system that is meant for AC that I can simply connect to the tracks and only provide track power by other means, such as a brick or Z4000, etc?  

2.  Is 4 amps the max power handling currently available?  I believe my trains sometimes draw more than 4 amps (e.g., non-LED passenger trains on grades).  

3.  Since it is used in the other gauges, I assume the DCC data signal goes to the outer rails, is that correct?

4.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, I assume that would mean you cannot use TMCC/Legacy simultaneously with DCC.  Correct?  

5.  My layout is fairly small, and I do have the star wiring pattern for DCS, so the center rail is cut making DCS districts.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, if I cut the outer rails at the same locations as the center rails, it seems that I could just apply the DCC data line at the output of the DSC TIU, thereby allowing DCS and DCC simultaneous operation.  Is the right?  Would need to also change fr0m the one wire Legacy connection to a connection of the Legacy data signal to the ground in each district.

Thanks!

1. DCC is actually Square-Wave AC, which imbeds the command within the track voltage. A friend of mine uses Lionel bricks to power his NCE DCC system for his home O scale layout and it works great.
2. My recollection is that DCC systems have various booster capacities ranging from 2-Amp to 10-Amp. For a larger layout/more locomotives you'd probably want a 10-Amp system.
3. DCC (or any other command system for that matter) is NOT dependent on the number/position of the rails. You need a "hot" and a "common" rail for the voltage/data. The hot can be the center rail of a 3-rail setup.
4. You can't use DCC with another system simultaneously as the voltage/data wave isn't compatible with TMCC or DCS. However, you could set up a DCC layout and toggle the main buss from DCC to regular AC and run DCS/TMCC equipment -- i.e., one or the other.
5. See #3 and #4 above.

By the way, the Rail King units have a jumper on the board in place of a DCC/DCS switch, so you can switch them to DCC as well. The command systems aren't reliant on the number of rails -- just that you have a "hot" and "common". Last I checked, you can fire the couplers with DCC -- it's under one of the additional CV's.

pennsy484 posted:

Some questions for those in the know:

1.  Following on to RBoaterToo's question, is there a DCC system that is meant for AC that I can simply connect to the tracks and only provide track power by other means, such as a brick or Z4000, etc?  

2.  Is 4 amps the max power handling currently available?  I believe my trains sometimes draw more than 4 amps (e.g., non-LED passenger trains on grades).  

3.  Since it is used in the other gauges, I assume the DCC data signal goes to the outer rails, is that correct?

4.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, I assume that would mean you cannot use TMCC/Legacy simultaneously with DCC.  Correct?  

5.  My layout is fairly small, and I do have the star wiring pattern for DCS, so the center rail is cut making DCS districts.  If the DCC data signal is on the outer rails, if I cut the outer rails at the same locations as the center rails, it seems that I could just apply the DCC data line at the output of the DSC TIU, thereby allowing DCS and DCC simultaneous operation.  Is the right?  Would need to also change fr0m the one wire Legacy connection to a connection of the Legacy data signal to the ground in each district.

Thanks!

1 They use AC but not the way you think.

2 Yes, There are higher capacity decoders than 4 amps. If you mean the whole system, than also yes, there are 8 and 10 amp systems out there. I would still swap out pass car lights for LEDs.

3 DCC data is part of the power. It's is encoded, or sent out as pulses.

4 Because of the way DCC is sent, no, it can't be used with those.

5 No again DCC is different. You would still need the blocks.

Matt beat me to it!

Thank you for the information. I am happy with my legacy and dcs setup  just wanted to know there is another option if needs be!

AGHRMatt posted:

1. DCC is actually Square-Wave AC, which imbeds the command within the track voltage. A friend of mine uses Lionel bricks to power his NCE DCC system for his home O scale layout and it works great.

 Thanks for answering that one, it was one of the things I was wondering about, and with an NCE system too!!

There is way for some to run at the same time --- wireless battery powered dcc such as:

http://www.s-cab.com

But O probably has too big a current draw for his control boards... still he mentions S. 

And I believe there are others that purport to do something similar, maybe they can do O... 

 [Adding]

Another appears to be more of home project maybe...

http://www.tamvalleyrr.com/wirelessdcc.html

Installer, mentions o and g among others

https://www.rcsofne.com

I have 5 Tiu and am thinking about WiFi so I need 5 Mth WiFi units, I would rather invest that money in dcc.  I have no problems with legacy except for the engine limit. I did read that one dcc was able to store over 16000 engines!!!

I found this one ebay: https://m.ebay.com/itm/ESU-733...72fff99633%7Ciid%3A1

it sounds like it can to it all

Other modelers on the 2-Rail forum are already using wireless battery power (dead rail) on their O scale 2-Rail layouts.  The main issue that I see with this is the smaller locos, especially small steamers and diesel switchers, which are both very popular models, will have space issues.  Even in O Scale, room is already tight with existing DCC / sound electronics plus trying to fit a decent sized  speaker to take advantage of the great sound available and now the desire to add a battery to run for several hours and there is just not enough room for all of that.  Of course, you could always couple up a "battery boxcar" in those instances or possibly use a smaller battery that can be shoehorned in there with the rest of the gadgetry which  constantly sips "recharge power" off the rails.    

Scott

 The fact that the newest MTH PS3 boards are dcc capable right on board, leads me to believe the decoders could do extended addressing. I was told years back that it was the remote that was the limiting factor so that MTH would not go to 4 digit addressing, if I remember correctly!

 I thought that with the release of the DCS app, it would become possible to change to the 4 digit. I have to then guess that the remote, still limits this??

I have several remotes and with each storing 99 addresses and the possible use of up to 16 remotes, I guess we could say that the MTH DCS system (could) store up to 1,584 addresses. I think that would be enough.

All digitrax decoders can be programmed to run AC open field motors. To run O Scale all you need is a 5 amp decoder. 

There are at least 3 systems which offer radio control from a hand-held transmitter directly to the locomotive (as does Lionchief Plus.)  These can be made to work from track voltage OR on-board batteries.  They have enough voltage and current capacity for a large O- or G-scale motor (i.e., Pittman or Buhler.)  They will work in the presence of TMCC and DCS, perhaps better than either one.   No more ground plane issues.  No more check track or out of range errors.  No issues with multiple signal paths.  More speed steps than the original TMCC.  And with a real handheld controller, NOT a smartphone.  The biggest challenge (as with TMCC) will be getting the radio signal inside a metal tender shell.

If I win the lottery and buy Roadside America, I would let the visitors run trains using a system like this, because I know it will work.  Be assured, there ARE alternatives!

IMO, the biggest issue is the lack of decoders that can handle more than 4 amps.  I've NOT done an exhaustive search but haven't come across any with more than 4 amps.

Steve

The Deltang Receiver I'm using in my BPRC engines is rated for 3 amps, with an available daughterboard for an additional 3 amps (which I don't use).  So far none of my engines has tripped the polyfuse protection.

While there are places in the states that sell the RX65b, I have gotten mine from RCS Australia and now RCTrains in the UK in about 10 days.  The boards from RCTrains can be bought pre-wired so all you have to do is make the connections at the other end (battery, motor, lights).

The BlueRail board is rated at 2 amps.  I have had times where my Williams E7 trips the fuse, but not often.  The settings can be adjusted to more or less compensate for it from what I've found.  Adding a Bluetooth 2" speaker added very little current draw to the circuit and sounds nice.

Once wired up there is no "learning curve".  Simply turn the transmitter on then the receiver, set the direction and turn the throttle and off you go.

I've used a conventional transformer, TMCC, and DCS in the past, have not used DCC.  BPRC works great for me, no books to read and no wiring to the new layout I'm building.

I think the power requirements are pretty high on these O engines and it varies a bit by DC motors in use per model. I've been playing around with a Mabuchi RS365-sh something. This motor and similar seem to be in a lot of models.  You can find this on the web with ease -- but it's not clear the exact precise model of it.  (it's an MTH though in this case with built in worm and optical pattern on the flywheel) It appears to best match (by my own imperfect testing) one that stalls out around 5 amps as seen here:

https://product.mabuchi-motor.com/detail.html?id=95

My again limited understanding is that these kinds of motor often have a transient high amp peak at start too... but the amount of current needed is often far lower otherwise.   As you can see in the specs -- the no load highest RPM is less than an amp.

So given all that, I'm not surprised a 4 amp or even less board would work for many models in O.   Be nice I admit to have the option for an even bigger amp board... or so it would seem.

Here's another 4 amp continuous but suggests to me at least 7 amps "peak" for a few moments before fry-age occurs.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...und/loksound-xl-v40/

Digitrax has 5 amp decoders for $66

Engineer-Joe posted:

 The fact that the newest MTH PS3 boards are dcc capable right on board, leads me to believe the decoders could do extended addressing. I was told years back that it was the remote that was the limiting factor so that MTH would not go to 4 digit addressing, if I remember correctly!

 I thought that with the release of the DCS app, it would become possible to change to the 4 digit. I have to then guess that the remote, still limits this??

I have several remotes and with each storing 99 addresses and the possible use of up to 16 remotes, I guess we could say that the MTH DCS system (could) store up to 1,584 addresses. I think that would be enough.

Hi Joe, the MTH DCC support is basic but hits the key points:

• Extended addressing up to 9999.
• All functions controllable via cab (lights, horn, bell, smoke, sound volume, couplers, etc.)
• Advanced consisting, meaning a loco knows when it's in a consist and responds accordingly. You can also control what functions (lights, horn, etc.) it responds to while in the consist. So for example, lead and rear engines only have their front and rear couplers active while in the consist.
• Function mapping, so you can assign lights, couplers, smoke, etc. to whatever function key you want on the remote.
• Programmable on the main and on the programming track.

They have actually documented things pretty well in any of the recent PS3 engine manuals.

Some of the downsides, when compared to something like a Loksound decoder:

• No customization of sounds or individual sound volumes. So you are stuck with a single horn, bell, etc. at whatever volume they are programmed with.
• No customization of lighting brightness or effects.
• Acceleration and braking behavior and related sound effects are pretty limited.
• Speed tables are not really usable, because they appear to use neither the tach signal nor BEMF for motor control in that mode. So realistically, you are pretty much stuck with their linear sMPH mode. That said, they do work well in sMPH mode, including while consisted.

RideTheRails posted:

IMO, the biggest issue is the lack of decoders that can handle more than 4 amps.  I've NOT done an exhaustive search but haven't come across any with more than 4 amps.

Steve

You don't need to go too crazy looking for high power decoders. A typical locomotive will pull about half an amp continuous while running. As an example, I routinely consist a couple of my MTH diesels, and the pair draws right around 1 amp with 30+ cars behind it. This is actual current at the booster output, as measured by an RRampMeter.

The Loksound L decoders are rated for 3 amps continuous. I use a lot of these. I have also used the Loksound HO decoder in smaller locos like the dockside switcher. That is rated at 1.1 amps continuous.

I run numerous Max Grey and USHobbies old brass locos with open frame motors using the NCE D408SR 4 amp decoder and have no problems.    In my tests none of these draw more than 2.5 amps under very heavy load and most stay  under 2 amps.

I do not have any of the series wound motors in operation, I have replaced the few I had.

I think: open up the shell.  See if you can find the motor designation(s).  Find it on the web if possible.  See if you can find its specs or close .... and go from there.  You can of course take the motor and attempt to ascertain its various constants... which is all fun and stuff as I've been finding out.  But this is not something most folks want to go about doing.

Another option?

One time I tried to find the stall current of a flyer chief thomas engine I have -- i put it on the track and hooked up the amp meter and held it tight as I set the transformer and controller full blast (note:  this is the invisible '11' setting)...  I came up with a little over 1 amp.

Not sure this is that great of a technique mind you...