Couplers and such...

I do not have any hands on experience with the McHenry clones, but others in HO have commented on the whiskers taking a set when left coupled on curves. Then they do not self-center

I have just gotten an update on these. It may be of interest to the S community.

Ray

http://www.sergentengineering.com/

Two pair for $14.00 and you get to clean the castings, assemble and paint them.

The upside is they look great and operate pretty much like a prototype coupler, the downside is you lose all the operational advantages of a Kadee.

I could see using them on a contest model, but for everyday use, not so much.

Like olives, they're an aquired taste.

Rusty

"an acquired taste"...

like booze, never could go there...rather drink horse pee.

I'm beginning to feel that way about Sargent couplers.

Oh well, back to the tried and true.

While everyone is talking couplers, what other brands besides Kadee of so-called scale couplers have people used/recommended?  And what advantages/disadvantages do they have?

Mike

There's not a lot of choices.  Kadee, (and SHS clone) AM Snap Lock, Sergent are about it.  Here's what I know off the top of my head.

Kadee 802: Plastic (delrin or similar) construction.  Reliable, self centering, uncouple via uncoupling tool or track magnet.  Some folks get real upset about the shape and knuckle spring.  Only one style available in S, some folks use HO Kadees (I do in special situations) HO and S Kadees are compatible.

There's some slack action that tends to make the cars bounce as they roll.  I've found using two centering springs inside pretty much takes care of the issue.

S Helper Service had a Kadee clone with a different centering spring method, there was no slack bouncing with the SHS couplers.

American Models Snap Lock:  Plastic, (ABS?) one piece construction.  Dummy coupler.  No self centering.  Will couple normally, although may require some effort.  Uncouple by lifting one car.  Kadee compatible.

Sergent: Metal construction, 4 pieces, coupler box not included.

Actually introduced in S around 2000, but were tricky to assemble and get to work properly.  Various reasons pushed them to Sergent's back burner until recently.

Sergent's are prototypical in looks, size and operation.  Uncoupling done by use of a magnetic wand.  No self centering, couplers have to be manually lined up for coupling and one has to make sure that at least one knuckle is open(maybe both, don't have any so I'm not sure.)  NOT Kadee compatible but will work in a Kadee coupler box.  Sergent's need to be painted and assembled by the user.

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Personally, I use the Kadee 802's almost exclusively.  I have some old "estate cars" that have HO Kadee's and a couple of cars with AM Snap Lock's installed.  Plus, I'll occasionally use an HO Kadee if there's a special situation where I can't mount an 802.  They all seem to play well together.

The Sergent's are without a doubt the best looking and probably best operating when properly assembled, (there are some folks dancing in the streets now that they're available in S again) but I'm not up to doing all the labor and cost involved in retro-fitting my fleet.

Rusty

According to the Sergent website:

The EC64J couplers can also be used in a draft gear box designed by John Degnan
that provides automatic centering of the coupler if you'd rather.

Thanks Rusty and Old Goat.

Anyone have experience with using Walthers ProtoMax or other HO couplers?

Mike

I stand corrected on the Sergent's.  I did give them some serious thought when they were first released way back when, but even then (when I had a lot less stuff) it still would have been somewhat of a major effort and expense to convert. 

I like the idea of Sergent's in theory, but I'm used to the operation and look of the Kadee's.  I'm pretty sure Kadee and their various clones will remain the defacto-standard for decades to come.

Rusty

It is interesting that the Sergent couplers really seem to be catching on over in HO. It is more work for sure, but if I start amassing S again I would be really tempted to use them and just install them as new stuff comes on to the property ;-) They really look great. I didn't know they were available in S. Good news.

In HO, Sergent couplers cost .59 cents each if purchased in lots of 144 or $1.17 each when purchasing 6 at a time. The S version is $3.50 each and I don't see any price for quantity purchases.  To put it in better perspective, $84 buys you enough HO couplers for 72 cars.  Outfitting 72 cars with Sergents in S would cost $504.  That works out to six times the price of the HO version. 

I agree with Jonathan that the Sergents are really great looking.  Maybe more people would seriously consider them if the pricing wasn't so out of line when compared to other S couplers and the Sergent HO couplers.

Mike

The couplers are $3.50 each. Then you need a draft gear box. Either you buy Kadees, and discard/sell the couplers so you can use their box or, use  the gear box designed by John Degnan. Is this gearbox in production? And available from who?

Smokey Mountain has a gearbox that looks like Degnan's, for $19.00 for four pairs. If it is the right one to use with these couplers fine.

And does the Degnan/Smokey Mountain box line up with the pads/holes on the cars many manufacturers provide for Kadee/SHS scale knuckle conversions?

But there's a lot of info here that isn't linked together. 

Just saying.

>> Anyone have experience with using Walthers ProtoMax or other HO couplers? 

>> Mike

Yes.  I have been using Kadee #5 and #3 since 1969.  I love them.  Better than the #802 S scale versions.  Want details? Just ask.  Ed L.

Ok.I'm asking...

Mark in Oregon

Ok.I'm asking...

Mark in Oregon

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Hi Mark.......

My use of Kadee HO couplers began back in 1969 when that was the only size available.  Long before the Kadee S coupler was created, I had quite a bit of rolling stock with the HO couplers installed and operating very nicely.  Compared to the S coupler, here is what I like about the HO couplers:

1.  The KD#3 comes totally assembled.  No need to worry about teeny tiny springs and such.

2.  The HO couplers have negligible slack action.  The S couplers have an excessive amount of slack action and I dislike it very much.  Ever seen a real observation car at the end of a long passenger train jerking along as the loco runs smoothly?

3.  The HO couplers couple closer to each other.  The S couplers are much farther apart.  Compare to a real train and the HO coupler spacing is simply more realistic.

4.  HO couplers are a lot cheaper.

5.  HO couplers come in a wide variety of shank lengths and knuckle heights which makes for easy installations in unusual situations.  The use of washers and shims can be avoided in many instances just by installing an over or under shank style of coupler.

6.  While the HO coupler is a bit undersized, the S scale coupler is a bit oversize.  Neither is perfect, but the HO looks better on smaller older equipment.  The S coupler looks better on the new larger modern equipment such as AF's SD70, etc.  Appearances are subjective, but I like what I like.  Don't we all?

7.  The HO Kadee mates well with the S Kadee coupler.  So having both on the same layout is very possible.

8.  Other than a wider gathering range, I do not see any strong advantages to the S coupler.  I use them sparingly on modern locomotives, but not much anywhere else.

9.  Yes, my steam engines all have operating HO couplers in the front.  Not too hard to do with a bit of filing, etc.

10.  The one disadvantage of the HO couplers is that of magnetic uncoupling.  Due to the higher-than-normal air hoses, a stronger-than-normal magnet must be used.  Thus all the wheelsets must be non-magnetic or else the entire car gets sucked into the magnet.  NWSL makes great non-magnetic wheels, but they do cost money.  But the wheels are wobble-free, in gauge, available at discount dealers, etc. and so it is a small price to pay -- in my mind, at least.

11.  While some of the shortcomings of the S coupler have "fixes", I am not impressed with the time or effort needed to fix things.  Much easier to simply use a different coupler.

Hope all this helps.......Ed L.

Thank you Ed.  A better run down would be hard to imagine.  I too adhere to the Kadee #5 family and am finding the new whisker coupler addition to be very valuable when converting the pilots of Flyonel steamers – Mikado and Y3… probably would have been helpful for my Flyer K5, too.  My reasons for choosing the #5s was close coupling, looks (size) and price.

I experimented with the big Kadee under track magnet (#803, I think) and found it to be reliable, however I recently revisited it after several years and found it no longer works… I’m stumped.

Have you tried the Kadee H0 electromagnetic uncoupler?  I am Hi-rail and I don’t believe NWSL make Hi-rail replacement wheelsets.  I’m very open to suggestions…

Thank you again,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I would agree with Ed on most points in his assessments. 

I've already hooked up (no pun intended) with mostly ProtoMax with some KD

802/808's thrown in, generally on the locomotives.  I think sizewise they look better.

However...if problems happen with the Protos then I'm certainly open minded about KD, particularly as Ed mentions the #3.

If Sargent does not mesh with KD/others, than I have no interest whatsoever in them.

Thanks to all for your opinions.

Interesting reading.

Thank you Ed for your reply.  You covered all the points, but I had a few more questions. 

If I understand correctly the #5's you use are the Kadee standard from long ago and the #3 is the same coupler, just packaged completely assembled?  All the other varieties are the same coupler, but with various alterations to the shank or trip pin to accommodate different situations?

It looks like Kadee came out with a "whisker" type spring coupler.  Have you used any of these and do they work OK?  Is the #148 considered the replacement for the #5?

Also, Do they Kadee's mate OK with Proto Max and others?

Thanks, Mike

If I understand correctly the #5's you use are the Kadee standard from long ago and the #3 is the same coupler, just packaged completely assembled?

Yes.  The #3 is simply a #5 that comes already assembled.

All the other varieties are the same coupler, but with various alterations to the shank or trip pin to accommodate different situations?

Yes.  The knuckle is basically the same for all the "standard" Kadee HO couplers.  There are some smaller and larger knuckles available, but I do not use them.  There is a "scale" HO coupler which is a bit smaller and, I think, a larger coupler for tank cars, etc.  Going from memory here so the details might be a bit off, but a visit to the Kadee web site will take care of minor errors.

It looks like Kadee came out with a "whisker" type spring coupler.  Have you used any of these and do they work OK?

Yes.  They work fine.  No apparent difference from the older type of spring mechanism at all.  From the outsider's viewpoint, they are identical.

Is the #148 considered the replacement for the #5?

I have not used the #148 and do not know.  I'd suggest going to the Kadee web site where it all will be explained.

Also, Do they Kadee's mate OK with Proto Max and others?

I personally use ONLY Kadee products and have no experience with the others.  My secret intelligence sources (HO buddies) tell me they mate OK, but the issue with the cheaper brands is a plastic spring which takes a "set" if a train is parked on a curve for long periods of time (like overnight).  The "set" then makes the couplers difficult to couple since they are then a bit off center from that point on.  I think whatever brand you use, metal springs are much preferred to plastic springs or spring planks or spring levers. 

Kadee couplers are a highly engineered product designed to operate as well as they look.  Knockoff brands can copy the appearance easily, but copying the operational quality is much more difficult.  No, I do not own any Kadee stock.

Thanks, Mike

You are welcome.  Ed L.