DCS 4.3 Reviews

I just verified that a head to tail MU does not work properly under 4.3 if you address them within an "ALL" command.  On the first application of power they move in the correct direction; however if you change direction they will fight each other going the opposite direction. Note that if you address the MU directly even after the behavior above, they function properly so this only effects MU with one engine in the reverse direction and you use the "ALL" command and change direction.  This was an issue under 3.X and fixed under 4.01 and is now again an issue under 4.3.

Smoke on or off at startup in DCS land is determined by the setting of the physical  smoke switch (or pot) on the engine. If the switch is "on", smoke defaults to "on" at startup. If it's "off", it defaults to "off" at startup.

Now why would MTH make that change?  Rhetorical question, Barry; I'm not interrogating you or shooting the messenger.  I was wondering why all of a sudden locos were smoking when started.  Same goes for clickety-clack.

Robert,

I thought were discussing lashups. If so, clickity-clack is correct in 4.31 beta and if smoke on is the default for lashups, what of it?

Eugene,

Make sure that before you select engines and initiate the ALL session, the lashup members are all in the Inactive List. See if that corrects your direction issue.

Barry, They were in the active area because I like to modify the settings of the trailing engines.  I was able to repeat the issue 10 times with two power off's in the cycle.  I will not have time today to setup another programming track until Monday night.  I will let you know at that time. I think your observation will be a work around.  I did not try that last night.  I will set the MU engines the way I want them do the save and then move the individual engines to the inactive area.

Barry, I didn't realize what was being said only applied in lashups.

Eugene,

i think what may be happening is that the ALL "heard" includes both the lashup and the separate members because all of them are in the Active Engine List. When a direction command is given, the lashup gets the command and then the members also get the command.

If that's what's happening, DCS is working as it should be.

You gotta follow the rules!  

Barry,

at York on Thursday, you advised that MUs member engines should be in the active area to permit them to have their features controlled  (on your slide at York).  Also under 3.x this was the DSC behavior and with 4.01 it worked properly and 4.3 DCS reverses the behavior. In your explaination, a better programming solution would be for the MU to be applied after the individual engines which is the way it worked in 4.01.

I've never seen just connecting the TMCC/Legacy base to the layout do anything to the DCS, that's very odd.  If you figure it out, I'd be interested to know what's going on.

Jim, I wonder if the Camelback has a CV board to drive lights.  If so, maybe a choke in the feed to the CV board would cure the issue.  Let's see if GRJ, GGG, & Barry think it's worth a try. 

Even without a CV board, sometimes TMCC/Legacy engines stomp on the DCS signal.  The cure every time for me is the 22uh 6A choke in the pickup lead, problem solved.

As John reaffirmed, sometime a specific TMCC engine can do this.  The choke goes between the red center rail pickup wire and the red wire to the Center rail of the TMCC board.  If 2 pick ups send both wires to one end of the choke and the other end goes to the wire nut used to tie the center rail wires together. 

What is the model number of your camel back, so I can check on internals for adding cruise.  G

Eugene,

at York on Thursday, you advised that MUs member engines should be in the active area to permit them to have their features controlled  (on your slide at York). 

Yes, that's correct. However, we weren't discussing running lashups in an ALL Engines session.

Did you do what I suggested regarding putting members in the Inactive List?

If this is a TMCC with modular electronics, it's a pretty simple move to put in the ERR Cruise Commander M, and you can probably do it yourself when you're putting that choke in.

Jim,

If you need a choke, I can drop one in the mail for you.

Dave

Barry, I indicated that I could not get to further testing until tonight.  I was getting birds out of the cowling of a C172 last night. I have no doubt that your workaround will work; however, I do want the ability to control sound and lights on the trailing engines and with three proto 2 trains on that loop, I have to use the "ALL" command.  If I could get MTH to email release 4.01, I would go back to that release (I will see if I can find it within 10 tera bytes of storage on my RAID.) All my other MUs are oriented forward (created under 3.x) so I can just live with it that way.  It is curious that the handheld formally on that loop fails to control the trains with the "ALL" command. Depending upon my airplane issues, I may have time later this week to see if the handheld fails on other loops with the "ALL" command as well.

Eugene,

There's no reason you cannot do exactly what you want to do.

While running an ALL session, just keep the members in the Inactive List and only make them active when you want to change their settings. Then, put them back into the Inactive List.

I've been running both systems together for years and don't encounter any problems.  Well, once in a rare while a DCS engine will get "confused" when running at the same time as a TMCC engine ... but no more often than usually encountered when running just the DCS system.  Once in a while an engine just gets confused ... probably from me pushing it's buttons .. :-)

Just for kicks I ran an Atlas caboose with blinking warning light with a couple of different DCS engines and no problems.

No chokes, no diodes, no incantations or burning of incense required.

I probably "overwired" my layout, with both rails commoned everywhere, and a single drop (now) in each power block.

So far luck is holding.

Probably why I'm not upgrading to the newest and greatest release of DCS for a while.

I finally got the darn setup working with a good degree of reliability.

Like Dad always said "if it's working, why change it?"

Jim,

No bill.  

Dave

Jim, When you take the shell off, just look at the clearance between the DCDR (motor Driver) and items (R2LC) in front of it.  The new board is slightly longer at the front of the board.

For testing effect on DCS system, try just the engine (should run fine no sound).  Does that kill DCS signal?  If not try just the tender? This will be conventional only sitting on the track with sounds playing.   If that does, I would swap in a different RS power Supply to see if that solves the issues.  G

Barry, with the member engines in the inactive area, the MU worked properly with the "ALL" command.  Unfortunately, this loop (no Legacy or TMCC) will not permit the member engines to go back into the active area.  I will just run them both forward so that I can address the member engines until a DCS release returns the functionality I had in 4.01.  I even have a loop where one consist with an MU has member engines in the active area and the 2nd triple MU none of the member engines can be placed back in the active area.  4.3 has improved the handling of the MU and member engine issue but it is not reliable nor consistant.

I've never found any locomotive I couldn't fit the Cruise Commander M into.  There are some of the semi-scale steamers that are very tight, and I ended up elongating the holes in the heatsink to move the board back a bit.  The CCM is about 1/8" longer than the DCDR it replaces, the other dimensions are the same.

Eugene,

That makes sense.

Unfortunately, this loop (no Legacy or TMCC) will not permit the member engines to go back into the active area.

However, that does not make sense at all. That sounds like a track/wiring/signal strength issue.

Eugene,

I may have an idea what's happening with your member engines that cannot get out of the Inactive List. DCS 4.30 corrected a long-standing bug where all TIUs followed whatever mode was set for TIU #1.

Please put all of your TIUs into Super TIU mode and see if the problem persists.

Unfortunately that is a step I can not take given the way I run my trains. I have 12 loops on the 12 TIU channels (three TIU's) and I use the "ALL" command to start only the trains on a particular loop with a dedicated handheld per loop. I get around the limitation that the TIU only retains one group of "ALL" engines.  In normal mode if I forget and use the "ALL" command on a handheld that is not the last one used within that TIU, trains on the last of other three loops are effected and not the one I wanted to be effected. This even happens if those engines effected are not even in the handheld.  I can not imagine trying to do this in supermode with 33 plus trains running at the time.

Jim, Are you going to try the test I mentioned?  I know it got buried in the other chatter.  G

That is helpful to know.  Thanks.  If you want to go one more step, try swapping R2LC.  The parts list for that engine doesn't show a CV board. Just the Mother board, R2LC and the DCDR.  It would be nice to know which component causes this.  G

It's very unlikely that just swapping the R2LC would cure the issue.  I'd be more inclined to suspect the DCDR (or DCDS if it's Odyssey) as that's where the large capacitors across the track are located.

If you're doing a new TMCC install, the choke is cheap insurance and very easy to do in the process.

Instead of being "unlikely" we need to get facts.  As a note the DCDR does NOT have any big capacitors, only one small one.  In my opinion the R2LC is a more likely issue with the various components and Radio.

Since not all TMCC engines do this, it needs to be a variable in a component.  The DCDR is too basic in my opinion.

Jim,  No change, but there are tolerance issues that could cause this.  I have run into R2LC that stop working well over time.

I don't know what is causing it, but swapping an R2LC in from an engine that doesn't cause signal losses, would be an easy test.   G

Once again, you're entitled to your opinion.  However, the DCDR is more varied in TMCC than the R2LC, as for Odyssey equipped engines it's a different unit.  Your "facts" are as much guesswork as mine.  On one point we can agree.  Swapping the R2LC is pretty easy, so it's a simple test.

Of course, since the end solution is likely adding the choke, my solution would be to simply cut to the chase and add the choke.  It's not always necessary to understand the root cause in excruciating detail to solve a problem.

John, WOW You don't want to understand root cause??  I do.  So why counter my post?  Why do you care if Jim was willing to run some test?  Especially since you agree the R2LC is the simplest swap, vice pulling a DCDR out?

The DCDR is nothing but a rectifier, some TRIACs and optical isolators with a few current limiting resistors.  Maybe TRIAC noise is it, but I have a hard time understanding the degradation of the DCDR that cause the loss of DCS signal in only some engines.   The R2LC is far more complex.

You did state DCDR have large capacitors, they don't.  That is the only reason the debate has gone any further.  G

So you're saying that it's 100% certain that it's the R2LC?  On what do you base that opinion?

 Well I had taken a break away from my trains. I thought to myself I'm tired today after doing some stuff around the house. I'll go run some trains for a change.

 I have a consist of three engines and a dummy unit leading a short train. I had labeled it "Dark CSX" for quick ID of the newer scheme from the rest. I selected it and the remote displays something about address #40 not found?

 That's a single PS3 engine in the lead of the other two that are PS2s. For the spirit of trying I selected address #40. The remote found it and brought it to active? Cool! Maybe just a weak signal?

 So I re-selected Dark CSX and everything started. Cool. Most of the lights are now on in the follower engines? The ditch lights on the ES44AC are flashing? SO I figure that's what the bug is and I turn off all the lights in the back engines and start the train moving. After a quick lap around the basement I figure I'll tempt fate and try a power cycle of the whole system to see if the lashup behaves. It was already built so there's no new key for saving stuff.

 On start up, the ditch lights on the second engine are flashing again, and most of the lights in the two rear engines all came back on. So much for my patience. I come back up and start typing. 4.3 might have to go for now. How long until 4.31?

 Probably no new news for U guys here. I'm happy that there will be keys on new consists to save settings. Like this PS3 engine is quiet and I always have to turn up it's volume. I just didn't realize that every consist has to be rebuilt!

Nope Never did.  Do I suspect it?  Yes.  Once we isolated it to the engine, the easiest swap is an R2LC.  That is why I recommended it.  If that is not the issue it is either a bad DCDR or some funky issue with the engine wiring. 

In an experiment like this you have to keep going until you find it.  May turn out it is both or how they interact.   G

I just didn't realize that every consist has to be rebuilt!

I have found that the some settings still are not saved (eg. headlight and maybe some others).

Eugene,

Headlight settings are not saved in DCS 4.30 (or earlier) releases, and will not be saved in 4.31. This is intentional.

Sound level settings are also not specific to engines when they are lashup members. Rather, changing an individual engine's sound levels will affect that engine both when it is a member in a lashup, and also when it is operated individually.

It should not be an issue if you don't have it on a powered track on the same TIU channel as the DCS locomotive that is having the problem.  It's only if the TMCC/Legacy locomotive is actually powered.