Dead rail in O scale?

At least three years ago at The March Meet there was a seminar demonstrating a battery powered engine with tender.  Two engines, two tracks with cross overs.  I was the only three rail modeler in the room and in the question answer portion I asked if I could then run my three rail battery powered engines on a friends two rail layout.  The demonstrator removed one engine from the track and placed it on the table cloth.  And ran it!  Best sales demonstration I've seen in a long time as it got everyone's attention.  The female fitting to charge the battery was between the drivers in one of the gaps below the boiler.  If the battery won't fit in the tender, would you consider putting it in a boxcar or reefer or gondola or flat car immediately behind the tender? 

Phase II was to have a  system to charge the battery from two tracks.  A sensor on the battery would indicate when to head to the charging track.  Pretty spiffy and not to far in the future if not yet available.

John in Lansing, ILL

I dont mind having to plug in the engine while it lays on its side to charge, I do that with all of my G scale engines now(charging my PRR E6 from Lionel now).  I try to not have to deal with a dedicated battery trailing car. I prefer the engine and tender to be self contained with batteries inside them.  I have carefully chosen my G scale engines to suit this desire.  If the batteries are not there capacity wise yet to fit the Berk's tender, they soon should be.    I have seen dead rail done in HO scale using medical equipment batteries fitted with an internal custom DCC reciever/decoder.  Very high doller due to the batteries but the technology is moving at light speed these days

What I will probably do, is if I find a battery with the capacity and size to fit, is repower the Berk with a Pittman ball bearing can motor to lower its amp draw.  

Bob will have his clinic again this year 

I am reading up on a couple of sites that supply the receivers and so forth.  Not a cheap install, the Canon CN30 motor is recomended over the Pittman can motor due to amp draw at stall on the Pittman being at 2.2amp vs 1 amp on the Canon. This would be bluetooth controlled via my smartphone.  Will research it more once the model arrives this coming week and can see how big of a battery will fit in the tender.  

I think you are correct.  An inexpensive system is right around the corner - I am guessing 2020.

Think about it: Ten years ago you could go to radio shack and buy a car with steering and variable speed, and the RC controller, all for $35.  All it will take is a really smart entrepreneur who is willing to go after what is a very small market.

bob2 posted:

Think about it: Ten years ago you could go to radio shack and buy a car with steering and variable speed, and the RC controller, all for $35.  All it will take is a really smart entrepreneur who is willing to go after what is a very small market.

Two channel RC kits with the transmitter, receiver and servos are pretty cheap.  One of these days I would like to put one in a Marx battery powered 591 just for fun.  I did put one in a Marx windup Commodore Vanderbilt, just because I like doing unusual projects:

We were doing this in G gauge 20 years ago using a control system made in Australia!

Have the photos somewhere with smaller batteries now available anything is possible for almost any scale that was the problem years ago trying to find small batteries that held their charge for a reasonable time.

Now we are busy converting Lionel subway cars for 2-Rail DC operation seems like we have gone backwards, not really, you will see the results on the layout in about 2 months.

Good luck with your efforts Dodgy, like to see the results. Roo.

FWIW, I found battery power with wireless DCC control is somewhat doable today. Good if you have some investment in DCC already, plus you can keep track power in staging, engine house etc., to charge the batteries. Probably not with open-frame motors yet though if you don't want a battery car.

I found it better to use a lower current motor such as coreless. Here's a cat's-cradle test rig I threw together to try the concept. Excuse the jerky start, I hadn't fine-tuned the decoder yet.

It's an Overland MP15AC with a Maxon coreless motor replacing the Pittman (under 1A stall current but the same torque).  It has a Loksound Select HO decoder and Tang Band speaker, plus a Tam Valley DRS1 wireless DCC receiver, and a Stanton BPS v4 battery manager/inverter, all powered by a Stanton LiPo fused battery pack.  It does all fit inside the body shell with a bit of fiddling. The battery side of it works really well, it runs silky smooth and never stalls. The inverter lets you use a lower voltage but higher current capacity battery so you can run longer - at least an hour continuous, which isn't too bad. And it'll keep charging on powered track. 

But I gave up on it for now as I couldn't get a reliable radio signal to the DRS1 inside the brass shell. Plus it is a bit of a hassle putting all the pieces together and fitting into an O scale loco. However that's not a battery-power problem to be fair.  Also I got a bit nervous about LiPo batteries unattended in the basement. Irrational I know as we have cell phones and tablets all over the place but I'm a bit of a worrier!           

Been running BPRC (Battery-Powered, Remote-Control) going on 4 years now. I've posted a number of topics on it, here's one that'll help:

https://ogrforum.com/...imperial-0-6-0-video

I'm using mainly 2000Mah, 9.6v NiMh battery packs, with a Deltang Rx65b receiver and various transmitters from RCS Australia, but Deltang also offers Txs.

I've converted 19 3-rail O-scale steamers and diesels to BPRC.  This year I took down my old 3-rail layout and built a new 2-rail layout without any wiring to it.  I've only got the track down at this point (no scenery) but have been running trains for a couple of months now.  Once I'm satisfied with the track plan I'll start putting down some sort of ground cover.

The only thing I don't have is sound or smoke.  I actually do have 2 engines with sound, they use the Bluerail bluetooth board, I even installed a bluetooth speaker in my Williams E7 and it sounds really good.  The Bluerail board has sound that comes out of my Ipad, but with the speaker installed it switches over so the sound comes out of the onboard bluetooth speaker.

I've found I don't care for smoke, and most of the sounds produced by today's command control systems.  I'd be happy with steam chuff and diesel rumble,nothing else.

So far zero failures of the systems, I did have to replace one of the cable harnesses I used, it was one I salvaged from one of my MTH locos.

You know the big name command designs use isolated hand rails as antennas, right? 

Here's a wiring diagram I used for the engines with a single motor:

The BIK-u3 is from RCS Australia.  It's really nothing more than an on/off switch and polyfuses on a pcb with screw terminals, plus the charging jack.

So far the 3amp Rx65b has worked fine on a variety of brands of engines (MTH, Lionel, Atlas, 3rd Rail, Weaver, Williams), but Deltang has announced new 3amp board (Rx65c) and 4-6amp board (Rx66-x, Rx66-x-H6, the "x" is based on what type of transmitter you use).

What kind of run time between recharging on your steamers Bob?  I prefer the Nimh battery power as I already have a smart charger for them.  I am waiting for the Bluerail boards to become available again as they are between models and nothing is in stock at the moment. 

Normally 2-1/2 hours minimum.  It takes 2 hours to recharge a 2000Mah battery if your charger is set for 1amp/hr (captain obvious here!).  I ran each of my engines to see how long they would run and 2-1/2 hrs was the result.

I like the Bluerail boards, although the wiring on them is IMO too small for O scale.  With that said I have not had either of mine catch fire or anything, but I do periodically have a shutdown when trying to start.  I haven't thought about it but I wonder if the problem is with the small wires (30ga?)???  Whatever size they are they're thin.  I also use a couple of 11.1v LiPo batteries.  From all I've read, the LiPos have a low internal resistance which provides more voltage at the low end, great for initial starts.  I used LiPos because of space limitations in a couple of engines, and to get that extra voltage at startup.

What surprised me most was when I BPRCd my Williams brass 4-8-4 N&W J 611.  The engine weighs 14lbs!!!  I didn't think a battery could provide enough "ummph" to move it, but it has ran perfectly.

I did find I have to slightly play with the throttle whenever an engine encounters an elevation in the layout, but so did real engines so....  My new layout is flat and I'm not having to deal with that anymore.  That video of the MTH 0-6-0 shows how slow you can get a BPRCd engine to crawl, good enough for switching duties.

I haven't tried wiring up any other lights other than headlight and rear headlight, I may have a couple with markers or number boards lit but most only have the 2 lights, all LEDs with a resistor in the line.

There's a guy on the Freerails forum that is experimenting with wireless charging, where you use a coil between the rails of a siding and one inside the engine to charge the battery, kinda like a rechargeable toothbrush!

Oh, Bluerail (David Rees) is working on a new board, I was hoping to see something out by now.  Bob Walker has also been working on BPRC and has posted in the sub-forum where all my posts are located.

BPRC is a great way to get a dead engine back to life.  Sadly, all mine worked fine when I started so my conversions have been on the expensive side, if you take into account the removal of perfectly good command/control systems.  But to me it was more of a "I can do this" than a "what's it going to cost?" thing.

Some can motors can still have an over 2 amp start up or stall draw, The nice Pittman ball bearing motors, commonly used in 2 rail O scale have this issue.  This is beyond the limit of the Bluerail boards and causes a shut down from my research.  The recommended motor if going dead rail is the Canon CN30, which has a 1amp draw at full stall.  Run times of 2.5 hours is pretty good, Probably can be stretched with stop and start running with some down time to let the battery rest a bit.  I can really stretch run times on my G scale, which mostly use 7.2vt, 5000mah, Nimh batteries normally used in RC cars.  

For battery powered operation, the currently available batteries (LiPO or NiMH) will do the job. There are at least four available add-on RC systems that will power O Scale. Bluetooth based RC is less expensive because there is no dedicated remote control (use smart device), but currently may not handle some of the higher current requirements. This could change. My experience and Bob D's with battery power has been very positive.

My guess is the second generation Bluerail boards will address some of the short comings of the first version.  Or atleast I would hope so.  As to when we will see them, who knows.  

There was also a clinic offered at the 2018 O Scale National Convention on dead railing. The link, below, to the clinic's slides was listed on the convention's website:

https://drive.google.com/open?...qX4STHEcgZE4lCEJoCkj

Hi Bob D.

Is that your new layout mate? Looking great.

What a difference from the old one with the new trackwork.

You have started a path  with converted US 3-rail that others can follow!

cheers

 Bob C

BobC, thanks!!!

Yep, that is the new layout.  I told myself I would run trains until I was satisfied BEFORE I did any permanent scenery or location of buildings.  I want to make sure the track is where I want it so I don't have to pull up anything that may keep me from moving track.

It would have cost even more $$$ to convert from 3-rail to 2-rail wheels.  Besides, I kinda like the stability of the large-flanged wheels of 3-rail equipment, I rarely have a derail and when I do it's usually because I forgot to throw a switch.  The majority of my switches are from Signature Switch and are flawless.

Hopefully I can soon get back to those ore cars you sent!!!

rattler21 posted:

At least three years ago at The March Meet there was a seminar demonstrating a battery powered engine with tender.  Two engines, two tracks with cross overs.  I was the only three rail modeler in the room and in the question answer portion I asked if I could then run my three rail battery powered engines on a friends two rail layout.  The demonstrator removed one engine from the track and placed it on the table cloth.  And ran it!  Best sales demonstration I've seen in a long time as it got everyone's attention.  The female fitting to charge the battery was between the drivers in one of the gaps below the boiler.  If the battery won't fit in the tender, would you consider putting it in a boxcar or reefer or gondola or flat car immediately behind the tender? 

Phase II was to have a  system to charge the battery from two tracks.  A sensor on the battery would indicate when to head to the charging track.  Pretty spiffy and not to far in the future if not yet available.

John in Lansing, ILL

What would really be cool is when the circuitry determines it needs a recharge and it heads to the recharge track - much like a battery operated vacuum cleaner. System would need to be highly automated to route the engine.

Steve

https://youtu.be/xefiCxpy8Po Well battery power is here!  This is my effort, using a bluerail board, 18650 cells, and an outside three rail Scalecraft NYC hudson. The next efffort will be using the RoboRemo App, my android phone, some development boards and scavenged 18650 cells. I reallly do look forward however to Dave from blue rail, and his next board, its been a long wait.        cTr....( Choose the Right )

What would really be cool is when the circuitry determines it needs a recharge and it heads to the recharge track - much like a battery operated vacuum cleaner. System would need to be highly automated to route the engine.

Steve

That would be cool.  For now, I'm trying to figure out a way I can use some type of meter to keep track of how many minutes/hours I've used on a battery pack since last charge.  Something that wouldn't reset until next charge.  If I could look at a readout that would show cumulative time usage over separate operating sessions, I could anticipate when the battery time is getting low.  Voltage is pretty constant so time would be a better gauge.

Will be watching this closely.  From my years of RC, I can say lipo has many advantages over Nimh, they just need to be cared for appropriately.  However, the low amp draw of model trains lends to long lipo life and issues should be nil.  I have RC setups which at burst can pull over 100 amps and during normal use can pull 50-60.

I think the best bet for charging is modern wireless charging.  Pull over a certain section of track, siding, wherever, and let it charge.  Lipo can take very high charge rates now, much more than Nimh so super fast charging is a reality.  Of course lithium ion cells are also an option.

I think the BPRC-technology is here now.

The issue is...what's out there is not a drop-in system, existing systems have to be gutted, for the most part leaving only the DC can motor.  Then the new system has to be purchased piecemeal, fitted, wired in, and tested.  After doing 19 engines I can say the last 1/2 dozen were very easy, but it did seem each loco had it's own peculiar issue, especially steam engines due to space.  The battery is the big obstacle, takes up a lot of room in a tender.  I had a 11.1v, 2200Mah LiPo in the MTH 0-6-0, but changed it to a 9.6v, 2000Mah NiMh battery a few months ago.  I did that because with the LiPo I had placed the charging jack on the bottom of the tender chassis, with the NiMh I was able to move it to underneath the coal load (black foam rubber) on top of the tender.  The 0-6-0 and the MTH NW2 are cramped, the others had ample room for a battery. 

The only engines I have poor performance on startup are my Williams by Bachmann 4-6-2 (a fairly new engine from them, only a few years old) and one of my Williams/Samhongsa brass USRA 4-6-2.  They both have a bit of a jack rabbit start to them, but may work itself out with use, I have not run either very much.  The 2 MTH Railking 2-8-0s I have worked out the sluggishness at startup, one of them actually coasts a bit when slowing down!  Some of my diesels have a high top end, just need to keep the speed under control.

The main issue I've had is understanding how the Rx65b receiver can be programmed to do different things.  For the most part, no programming was needed and one of the suppliers will even preset the receiver to how you want it and comes with wires already soldered on the small board.  You still have to connect (solder or screw terminals) to the other components, but modelers should be able to handle such basic requirements.  Once in a while I'll reverse the wiring coming from the motor(s) and have to fix it.  I had my Lionel GP9 motors wired so they were opposite from one another, a snip-snip and resolder to the correct terminals took care of it.

The other issue is trying to dress up the wiring so it doesn't look a 2-year old did it

So, say you had a lot of room, like in a 17/64 scale AC-8.  What parts, and what cost, to make it do a lap around my test loop under NiMH power with RC, including the transmitter?  I assume you only need one transmitter for all 16?

Candidate:

bob2 posted:

So, say you had a lot of room, like in a 17/64 scale AC-8.  What parts, and what cost, to make it do a lap around my test loop under NiMH power with RC, including the transmitter?  I assume you only need one transmitter for all 16?

Candidate:

Hey Bob,

Transmitter - from what I see the basic Tx I would use is either the RCT-Tx24 from RC Trains ($103) or the DU-Tx-1 from RCS Australia ($129).  From my experience shipping from Australia costs more than from the UK, plus it takes longer.  That may have changed so it's best to check both out.  I have 3 Transmitters - Tx2, Tx3, and Tx7.  All have been superceded by the DU-Tx models.

Receiver - I would go with the new Deltang Rx65c-1 (3amp version) or the Rx66-1 (4amp version) or Rx66-1-H6 (6amp version).  RC Trains in the UK has the Rx65c (chose Accessory wired) for $58 plus shipping.

Battery - If you have the room, I'd get a Tenergy 12v 2000Mah NiMh battery.  I've been getting them off Amazon, they currently have this battery for $22 (I also use a square 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh, costs $16).  I always go to All-Battery and look at the NiMH packs they have, then see if I can find them cheaper.

Charger - Amazon has a combo package charger and 12v battery for $37

On/Off Assembly - You'll need an on/off switch, a charging jack, and auto-reset fuse.  I'll check for PNs and prices later.

LEDs - Basic lighting is all I have, 3mm LEDs for the headlight and rear light.  There's pins on the Rx for other stuff and I need to go back to see what I need to do to light other LEDs.  I usually get them from Evan Designs, they even come with an inline resistor (last PN I used was 41805).

Here's another BPRC wiring diagram, I think I got it off the RC Trains website:

I'll look this post over and add links if that is allowed.  If not, email me and I'll do it that way.

You'll need a battery for the Tx, usually a 9v with the terminals on top.  They last a good while.

I have 3 transmitters - Tx2, Tx3, and Tx7.  I usually use the Tx2 for my switcher in the yard, the Tx3 for freight,and the Tx7 for passenger engines.  It's just my way to keep things straight.

The RCT-Tx24 from RC Trains has a "SELECTA" switch, which allows you to select 12 locos.  I think you bind with one then turn the Selecta knob to the next position to bind the next engine.  With the Txs I have I can run multiple engines, but they're not independently controlled (my Txs have no Selecta switch).

Does anyone have an update on Blue Rail Trails?  An announcement for their next board was eminent... like 6 months ago.

Kirk

 To Australia.

Shipping by DHL from England 5 days

Shipping from America 10-20 days

DHL (German Post Office) are miles in front of everybody for International shipping and the costs are reasonable.

Roo.

TexasSP posted:

Will be watching this closely.  From my years of RC, I can say lipo has many advantages over Nimh, they just need to be cared for appropriately.  However, the low amp draw of model trains lends to long lipo life and issues should be nil.  I have RC setups which at burst can pull over 100 amps and during normal use can pull 50-60.

I think the best bet for charging is modern wireless charging.  Pull over a certain section of track, siding, wherever, and let it charge.  Lipo can take very high charge rates now, much more than Nimh so super fast charging is a reality.  Of course lithium ion cells are also an option.

  What are you running with a 50 amp constant? I've worked with industrial dc electric that took a cherry picker to install, and they don't use that much power. On the small side 50 amp is an automobile's starter.

Miliamp? ...has to be  

You can't compare industrial high voltage DC electric motors moving low RPM's and high torque to what RC guys run.  These motors are moving over 50k rpm at full speed.

Many modern electronic speed controls like I use have data logging which tells you what you kind of power you are using.  This is critical in understanding what is happening in high speed high power applications.  When your moving a 14-15 pound monster truck at 70-80 MPH (real speed, not scale, GPS verified) you are pulling some serious power.  My last high speed system was 6 cell 22 volt lipo.  Burst amps are typically initial at takeoff from 1-3 seconds.  At half to full throttle running 50 MPH and above you have to overcome weight, friction, and wind resistance along with other issues.  You won't pull 50 amps for the entire pack as you can't maintain speed for the entire pack, but you will pull those high constants when going that fast.  Surface RC in heavy vehicles is extremely hard on batteries, more so typically than any other RC application because your amp draw moves up and down rapidly.

My speed run truck I had was a Traxxas E-Revo, you can see people all over youtube doing speed runs with them.  I could use up a 5000mah pack in about 3-4 minutes doing speed runs.

With my layout many engines are r/c as it is a garden layout. I run conventionally or linchief plus orrrr old conventional engines with traxx r/c and a lipo screw gun battery i can pop in and out all loaded into a box car, passangers car and b unit. I call them Power cars... i use rc jax , cable runs out of the engine or tender and plugs into the box car. Cable is conected to the e unit of engine in postwar after having cut wires from track power supply. You can use a switch so you could run eather. Dc type motors will run in both directions if you connect to steering servos. Running a lionchief plus with blown board removed just fine. Advantages ... 100' distance control in your hand, forward and back, great slow speed even on points, add a relay to a servo and put on electric couplers,  amazing smoke and lights at 18vac on track running throw the normal system. Points and accessorys have tons of power, 1. 5 hrs run time. For sound ad a small bt speaker and down load a train game or just run the real life engine sounds trip from youtube.  Enjoy from Caseyville model railroad...