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Has any one had a problem with there gP9? Just put mine on the layout and would not run. Cycled it forward and reverse a grinding sounds were heard from the motorized truck. It sounded gamed so I removed the top. Found The motor loose above the truck plus I can all most pull the motor out. Looks like its not mounted right or I can't tell how it's secured to the truck. Any suggestions?

 

Why can't Lionel just leave things alone. My older Lionel geep's are designed almost like the original trucks, and they run. Don't like the gears outside the truck frame just to cheep looking.

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Hi Guy's,

yes, after I inspected the truck I did noticed all of the screws were loose and worked there way out. Once I secured them the geep ran fine. My bell comes "on" when you increase the voltage to the track. It stay's "on" until you lower the voltage to almost stopping it. Is it suppose to work that way? I haven't taken any of the cars out yet, don't know if I'm going to keep this set yet. Just wished they left the trucks the same as Gilberts design like they had with there earlier diesel sets. My charllenger had the same problem, loose screws and pick- ups, bad sensor board. I'm batting 1,000 with this new stuff. May be done buying this flylionel. Stick with the original stuff. Never had a problem with American Models or S-Helper stuff.

Originally Posted by Mike W.:

It appears that the tool chest on the Rocket Launcher flatcar is backwards.

 

Also, it seems the trucks are very tight on the Rocket car....

 

Its still a charming set and I am pleased that I purchased it.

 

The tool chest is backwards, but removing the two small Philips head screws that fasten the chest to the flat, flipping it around, and refastening the screws rectifies the issue. Three minute job. The free rotation of the trucks on my samples of the rolling stock is as it should be. I am enjoying my set, too. 

 

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

I'll join the chorus. Just ran mine for the first time tonight. Ran fine until I turned it over to shut of the buzzer. Put it back on the track and it bound up. Thanks to all of the complaints, I was watching for it and did not try and keep running it. Took it apart and the motor was not attached to it's mount. Reattached and off we go, but Lionel should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Steve

 

 

Hi Mike, Steve, Papa,

I haven't had any problems with the contact sliding by on the control section. Just beware they may wear out a lot faster since they are so cheap and thin. My last purchase of flylionel I had a problem with the challenger. Same thing loose screws on motor mounts and bad pick-up board. Not knowing anything that new, I had to send it back. Glad to help and post my comments. I do remember that some of my "O" gauge guy's saying there is a BIG QA problem with Lionel. It's sad we have to wait sooooooooo long for this stuff to show up and have to work on them to get it to run right. This maybe my last purchase of new stuff from flylionel. Never had a problem with American Models or "S" Helper stuff.    

Originally Posted by Train485:

 Never had a problem with American Models or "S" Helper stuff.    

 

I have with both. Multiple times.

 

Doesn't excuse the issues reported here, however. Aside from the few adjustments that I reported in the other thread (the one with the pictures), my sample of the Defender set has been good to go. 

 

Bob

Hi Train 485,

 

Hi Guy's,

yes, after I inspected the truck I did noticed all of the screws were loose and worked there way out. Once I secured them the geep ran fine. My bell comes "on" when you increase the voltage to the track. It stay's "on" until you lower the voltage to almost stopping it. Is it suppose to work that way? I haven't taken any of the cars out yet, don't know if I'm going to keep this set yet. Just wished they left the trucks the same as Gilberts design like they had with there earlier diesel sets. My charllenger had the same problem, loose screws and pick- ups, bad sensor board. I'm batting 1,000 with this new stuff. May be done buying this flylionel. Stick with the original stuff. Never had a problem with American Models or S-Helper stuff.

 

I wanted to answer your question. My new C&O Jeep operates the very same way as yours. Was this the same as the original Gilbert no the bell rang while the engine ran slow but as the speed increased the bell became silent. If I recall correctly I also have a bell ringer in my Missouri Pacific A-A Alco engines made by Gilbert with the bell ringer and it also rings when the engine runs slow and stops as the engine increases speed. I hope that answers your question.

 

Don

Hi Donald,

after reading your response I did some research into the jeep bell operation. What I found out is that the original Gilbert jeep bell would ring at start up low speed then go off as the speed is increased. This new Lionel jeep works the opposite way. I had to switch it off. don't know if there is a way of changing it. Oh we'll.

Just a simple question?  Knowing the issues that exist is Lionel doing anything about this?

It seems like a PRO-ACTIVE approach would be to test and repair the sets already in stores inventory.  Maybe I am missing something?

dandeo50

 

Hi Dandeo50,

 

     I will try to answer your question in the best way I can. In my opinion Lionel has had a problem with their quality control but maybe it's because the consumers don't send them back to repair these products that are bad. There seems to be a problem here in a majority but not all sets but if the quality control department detected this problem they could have corrected most of the bad units before shipping to the consumers. After such a long wait the consumer has the opinion that they don't wish to send this brand new set back to customer service after almost 4 years wait, in this case, and I myself would rather look to find the problem and repair it myself if I could. Being that I could repair the problem I decided not to return it to lionel to tighten the screws to secure the motor. Had the screws been missing then I would have no choice but to return it for service. I hope this can answer you question.

 

Don

 

 

Herb this is what I thought I said in my posting but went on to explain why I  chose to try and repair my own. If I sent it back to Lionel to repair there would have been approximately 2 weeks or more before I would have it back in my possession again. I thought I had waited long enough and why was this engine  not tested before it was shipped to the retailers. Thank you for your comment. Don
 
 
Originally Posted by herbw2:

By doing your own repair you discourage Lionel from trying toimprove their quality control.

 

Herb Wasserman

 

 I hope that those that need to know are observing this thread, do look into this root cause and deal with these problems. Thank you for you confidence in this system because I have not been believing this system will ever be rectified. We must Believe and keep the faith.
 
Don
 
 
 
this Originally Posted by Ukaflyer:
Originally Posted by herbw2:

By doing your own repair you discourage Lionel from trying toimprove their quality control.

 

Herb Wasserman

I'm sure that those that need to know have been observing this thread and realised what the common root cause is and looking into it accordingly

 

I talked last week with Remy Convery of Lionel. Of course they are always trying to improve the products they produce and they know of the issues.  By the way he monitors this forum.  There are two seperate issues with problems.  One is design and the other is what comes out of production. 

Remy says Lionel has on sight personel at the production facilities in China that work to make sure quality is as high as posible.

I know Lionel cares but sending back easily fixed problems is not a good way to have their production problems improve.  Writing here about them is probably better since they monitor what is written here.  Their repair staff are not decision makers in what is produced or how it is designed. 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Roundhouse Bill,
 
Thank You for sending me your comments, they were very reassuring and I hope to see some improvements in the future with the quality of the S Gauge products. You have restored my faith is Lionel.
 
Don
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Roundhouse Bill:

I talked last week with Remy Convery of Lionel. Of course they are always trying to improve the products they produce and they know of the issues.  By the way he monitors this forum.  There are two seperate issues with problems.  One is design and the other is what comes out of production. 

Remy says Lionel has on sight personel at the production facilities in China that work to make sure quality is as high as posible.

I know Lionel cares but sending back easily fixed problems is not a good way to have their production problems improve.  Writing here about them is probably better since they monitor what is written here.  Their repair staff are not decision makers in what is produced or how it is designed. 

 

>> By doing your own repair you discourage Lionel from trying to improve their quality control.

>> Herb Wasserman

 

May I politely disagree?  Fixing your own stuff shouldn't discourage Lionel from anything.  If improving quality control is important to Lionel, it will remain so even if you don't send anything in for repair. 

 

I do feel that informing Lionel of problems is important so that they realize what the consumer is experiencing.  But that is a matter of good communication rather than where an item is physically repaired. 

 

I recently emailed an informative message about a problem to a mid-level Lionel manager.  He called me back on the telephone almost immediately and discussed the matter in some depth.  I came away satisfied with Lionel's response and have no complaints at this point.

 

I do believe Lionel cares about these problems.  Is it reasonable to assume there is a test track in China and that equipment is actually run for a minute or so before being placed into the box?  If not, perhaps a suggestion or two along those lines would be helpful.

 

Just thinking out loud......Ed Loizeaux

You know, the old Gilbert stuff is plentiful and inexpensive for the common items. A new hobbiest should start there.  The new Defender set is only $429 at Charles Ro and that is cheap for a whole set.  A new guy would only need to get a transformer and track and get a good start.

 

If you were to take a $50 AF set from 1955 and factor in the appreciation of the dollar in 60 years you would find its cost in today's money would be way over $500.  An average earning parent in 1955 had to work several days to give their son a train set. 

Roundhouse Bill,

 

Did the train sets back in 1955 have QC issues at the rate we see today? or did the father and son experience immediate enjoyment where the focus was on how much fun the hobby is vice how much I spent on inferior quality? I ask because it would be interesting to know if QC issues have always been a part of this hobby.

 

Sunrise

Sunrise
 
I can understand your concerns. I have had the same thoughts in my mind many times since I started buying Lionel American Flyer Trains. This has to be a real catch 22 here because if we don't buy the new trains the new trains will stop being manufactured because big business will not support a line that will not support the companies bottom line--- Profits. So the consumers must make known to the company in some other way that these high priced products have problems and how can this be rectified so the production can be flawless when it finally arrives in the consumers hands. I also agree that anyone purchasing a new engine or set that has problems will undoubtably send it back to the manufacture and never buy another from them again and what really hurts they will tell their friends too.
 
These problems we are having have to be heard by Lionel by what ever means we have available to us to be heard and they have to make the necessary changes to their processes to manufacture better quality products and ship flawless products to their customers in the future.
 
I have been into American Flyer Trains since I was 2 years old and never had a bad one in my collection. Some of the pieces were basket cases when I bought them but in a Short while I had them running as they they were when they rolled out of the New Haven Factory. They run just as well today. I question in my mind if Lionel American Flyer will be able to make that claim in 65 years.
 
If you are following this blog there are many answers to your concerns and many more. Please don't give up try to have your concerns heard by Lionel but don't stop buying their products because if you do others will follow and we all will be the losers.
 
Don 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Sunrise Special:

Folks curios about the hobby have a hard time getting past initial cost.  This stuff is expensive...how can we expect the hobby to grow if product continues to have these issues.  The experienced hobbiest may be numb to these issues..however for the new folks..a good way to lose them quick.

 

Sunrise

 

Originally Posted by Sunrise Special:

 

Did the train sets back in 1955 have QC issues at the rate we see today? ..

 

Sunrise

 

It would be hard to determine what the repair rates are comparatively, but Gilbert and Lionel had their share of issues after Christmas. As an example for Gilbert in 1946, the early use of plastics resulted in a large number of returns of steam engines to deal with the shrinking white walls that resulted in loose tires and shorts; and the warping of plastic rolling stock was a major concern. The (often) seasonal tune up of AF diesels was a long running issue throughout the 1950's. Lionel had running durability issues with Super-O turnouts and battery leakage in the horn-equipped diesels and electrics.

 

By comparison, modern can motors are generally more trouble free than the open frame three pole motors of the period. Armatures and fields made from the 1900's through the 1950's would eventually require rewinding because the copper wire was coated with lacquer, which is porous and broke down over time and use. Modern motors are wound with copper wire coated with Formex, which is very tough (The electronics to which they are attached may be another matter, however ). Materials, paints, and lubricants are more durable and stable than in the past.

 

Bill is correct in that a reissued set like the Defender is something of a bargain by historical measures. Of what the new SD70ACe is capable would have been almost unthinkable in the 1950's. The closest a postwar train comes to that level of attributes is the Lionel electronic set, which was ~$190 in Truman era dollars. And, those sets always required attention.

 

Bob

Last edited by Bob Bubeck

>>  I ask because it would be interesting to know if QC issues have always been a part of this hobby.

>>  Sunrise

 

My experiences have been that American-made toy trains have generally been more free of defects than foreign-made toy trains.  The key word here is "generally" because there are numerous exceptions to that general statement.

 

As a Lionel 3-rail O gauge youngster, I do not ever recall having any performance problems with any Lionel product ever.  As a teenager, who switched to HO for greater realism, there were numerous problems with HO kits where the parts did not fit together properly.  The RTR products, as I recall, seemed to generally work OK.

 

After switching to S scale, most of the QC-related problems I have personally experienced were with Korean-made brass imports.  I do not recall ever having a problem with mass-produced plastic products from American Models or S-Helper Service.  But the hand-made exquisitely-looking brass imports were loaded with problems.  Lots of problems over the years and they still have them to this day. 

 

My real peeve with the brass imported models is that the same problems occur over and over again on different models.  There seems to be little effort to learn from the past and use that knowledge for an improved future.  One example:  Pressing plastic parts onto metal parts.  This is commonly done with plastic gears, u-joints, wheels, etc. which are pressed onto axles and shafts.  With time, the plastic outgasses, becomes old, becomes brittle, shrinks, and -- eventually -- splits.  When the gear or u-joint splits, it then slips on the metal shaft and becomes useless.  I cannot tell you how many times this has happened on brass imports from Korea -- enough times to convince me nobody really cares.  (NOTE:  This is not a Lionel problem as far as I know.)  And, to make things worse, it has an easy cure:  splines on the shaft, flat on the shaft and flat spot on the plastic part, Delrin plastic parts (stronger), set screws, etc.  Take your choice of solutions -- there are several.

 

One brass model I purchased would not run around a curve -- any curve.  The problem was that the tender trucks were attached to the tender floor BEFORE the paint was fully cured.  When the paint cured, the trucks were firmly attached to the floor and would not swivel.  The QC issues with brass imports go on and on and on.  One reason for this is the extensive hand efforts that go into each model.  Thus, precise repeatability is difficult when compared to injection molded and die cast parts which are exactly the same each time.

 

To answer the original question:  I think QC issues have always been a part of the hobby, but some firms (Maerklin, Fleischman, LGB, Zimo, etc.) have very good reputations for quality.  QC problems, whether design-caused or production-caused, are preventable with good inspection.  Many, if not all, of the European firms have resident inspectors in the various Asian factories to personally inspect and approve products before they leave the premises.  These inspectors are on the payroll of the customer and live (temporarily) near the factory and spend their working hours in the factory dealing with QC matters.

 

Of course, excellent quality does not come with a cheap price.  I once spoke with a German inspector resident in Korea (years ago).  He opined that, in general, the American market was not willing to pay the price for excellent quality whereas the European market was happy to do so.  Thus, European toy trains were more expensive and of better quality when compared to their typical American counterparts.

 

Being an O gauge kid, I have no experiences with Gilbert AF.  Being an S scaler as an adult, I have not had any experiences with Lionel/AF products in the recent past.  I am now the happy owner of two L/AF SD70 diesels, but am very much aware of the potential for problems because of the complexity of today's products compared to the so-called good old days. 

 

The electronics of today are a far cry from that of the 1950s.  So are the motors and drive trains and couplers a lot more complex these days.  All of this new complexity makes it much more difficult to build a product that will last for 50 years while needing only a drop of oil from time to time.  Yet, in spite of that, I would not want to trade the L/AF SD70s for a Gilbert ALCO PA.  Totally different animals for sure.  One is an adult toy and the other is wonderful for kids. 

 

Random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon.

 

Cheers....Ed Loizeaux

With new items, Gilbert would have a sample run, then a pilot run, and then a full production run. Generally products had two runs, a first run and then later a second run so that they could make adjustments up or down if items were not selling as well, or selling better than forecast.

 

On my prior comment getting returns speaks a lot louder than just complaining.

 

Herb Wasserman

Originally Posted by herbw2:

With new items, Gilbert would have a sample run, then a pilot run, and then a full production run. Generally products had two runs, a first run and then later a second run so that they could make adjustments up or down if items were not selling as well, or selling better than forecast.

 

On my prior comment getting returns speaks a lot louder than just complaining.

 

Herb Wasserman

True enough, but sometimes it still took a period of time before the appropriate refinements made their way into general production. For example, the AF plastic link coupler introduced in 1946 did not remain coupled with acceptably high dependability until 1948. In any case, there is value in having the engineering and production functions located in the same place. Gilbert, Lionel Corp., LTI, Ives, etc. as well as the great European manufacturers, were set up as such.

  

Bob

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