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Those MTH German steamers have suddenly have a luster added to them in my eyes: I didn't know there were so many or that they were so effective during WWII.  I ordered MTHs BR - 44 justnow, I was so impressed.

 

I am reading Snow and Steel - The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 by Peter Caddick-Adams, perhaps the best history book I have read in forty years (and I read a lot), well-written and a good read, meticulously researched and annotated with many on-line references,and full of facts I had not come across before.  Among them, from page 211, on the German railroad system, and why it was so resilient and nearly impossible for Allied bombers to seriously hurt:

 

"Deutsche Reichsbahn was the largest single public enterprise in the world at the time of its nationalization in 1937 . . . [and by late in the war, through absorption of Austrian, Czech, and Polish RRs, etc.] . . . operated a staggering total of 50,000 locomotives and at least three million freight cars, more than double that of the United States."  

 

All of this is a geographic area slightly smaller than the eastern US.  Wow.  

 

Interesting.  One of Caddick-Adams' references

 

http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html

 

 

Last edited by Lee Willis
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I am sure you will give a great review when you receive it. I like the European models that MTH sells. They have a very high degree of details and of course they are different. Having studied in Europe, their locos are appealing to my eyes. I have a scale Wheel French 2-3-1 and it is a beauty...
 
What I do not understand, is why does MTH puts so much more details in the European steam locos, which I have to presume sell less than US models, and they do not do the same for American models which, again I presume, sell a lot more. I think we should at least get the same amount of details....
 
Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

Those MTH German steamers have suddenly have a luster added to them in my eyes: I didn't know there were so many or that they were so effective during WWII.  I ordered MTHs BR - 44 justnow, I was so impressed.

 

I am reading Snow and Steel - The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 by Peter Caddick-Adams, perhaps the best history book I have read in forty years (and I read a lot), well-written and a good read, meticulously researched and annotated with many on-line references,and full of facts I had not come across before.  Among them, from page 211, on the German railroad system, and why it was so resilient and nearly impossible for Allied bombers to seriously hurt:

 

"Deutsche Reichsbahn was the largest single public enterprise in the world at the time of its nationalization in 1937 . . . [and by late in the war, through absorption of Austrian, Czech, and Polish RRs, etc.] . . . operated a staggering total of 50,000 locomotives and at least three million freight cars, more than double that of the United States."  

 

All of this is a geographic area slightly smaller than the eastern US.  Wow.  

 

Interesting.  One of Caddick-Adams' references

 

http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html

 

 

 

Originally Posted by BigBoy4014:
I am sure you will give a great review when you receive it. I like the European models that MTH sells. They have a very high degree of details and of course they are different. Having studied in Europe, their locos are appealing to my eyes. I have a scale Wheel French 2-3-1 and it is a beauty...
 
What I do not understand, is why does MTH puts so much more details in the European steam locos, which I have to presume sell less than US models, and they do not do the same for American models which, again I presume, sell a lot more. I think we should at least get the same amount of details....

First, in my opinion, the European modelers are much more knowledgable about their steam locomotives than the "average 3-Rail toy train person" here in the U.S.. Thus, they are much more demanding.

 

Second, if the "what we have today" level of detail in 3-Rail diecast models still sells, then I suppose we all deserve what we get to choose from. Personally, I think that many of the MTH Premier steam locomotive models that I have purchase over the last 10 years, are extremely well detailed, such as the GN 4-8-4, the C&O K-4 2-8-4, the NYC L3/L4 4-8-2 immediately come to mind.

Originally Posted by BigBoy4014:
 
 
What I do not understand, is why does MTH puts so much more details in the European steam locos, which I have to presume sell less than US models, and they do not do the same for American models which, again I presume, sell a lot more. I think we should at least get the same amount of details....
 
 

 

 

 

 

Just as a casual observance, European steam locomotives (particularly German designs) have more "Stuff" visible on the outside than their U.S. counterparts, hence this is interpreted by U.S. modelers as "more detailed."

 

 

Exhibits A and B:

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Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque
Originally Posted by jaygee:

Ah....But If you were a P47 driver, this was a target rich environment !

Yep, being a engine crewman for the Germans was a risky occupation. You didn't dare run in the daytime or where your train could be spotted from the air.

You also wouldn't want to hang around yards too long, day or night, as they were constantly bombed by B-17s and B-24s in the day, and RAF Lancasters at night.

And on top of that, you had the resistance often trying to blow up your train...

Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

Those MTH German steamers have suddenly have a luster added to them in my eyes: I didn't know there were so many or that they were so effective during WWII.  I ordered MTHs BR - 44 justnow, I was so impressed.

 

I am reading Snow and Steel - The Battle of the Bulge, 1944-45 by Peter Caddick-Adams, perhaps the best history book I have read in forty years (and I read a lot), well-written and a good read, meticulously researched and annotated with many on-line references,and full of facts I had not come across before.  Among them, from page 211, on the German railroad system, and why it was so resilient and nearly impossible for Allied bombers to seriously hurt:

 

"Deutsche Reichsbahn was the largest single public enterprise in the world at the time of its nationalization in 1937 . . . [and by late in the war, through absorption of Austrian, Czech, and Polish RRs, etc.] . . . operated a staggering total of 50,000 locomotives and at least three million freight cars, more than double that of the United States."  

 

All of this is a geographic area slightly smaller than the eastern US.  Wow.  

 

Interesting.  One of Caddick-Adams' references

 

http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html

 

 

They have the book on Audible, I am down loading it now.  Thanks, I am always looking for a good book

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
European steam locomotives (particularly German designs) have more "Stuff" visible on the outside than their U.S. counterparts, hence this is interpreted by U.S. modelers as "more detailed."

 

 

Exhibits A and B:

012 104-6

e 2929


I must admit I have always had a soft spot for the "All black with red running gear" look of German locomotives.

I've spent time at the German RR museum in Nuremberg, which is an amazing place.

They were running these locomotives in daily service way later than almost any other industrialized nation, on mainlines until 1978 if memory serives.

Originally Posted by Greg Houser:

Thanks for the heads up on the book - looks like it will be a worthy addition to my father's day gift list. 

 

--Greg

You will love the book.  Full of incredible facts and all you did not know.  some are really weighty and cause you to stop and think for a while.  Here is only one, okay, actually, two: minor ones that are just of the "Wow, I never would have suspected that . . . "

 

The actor David Niven, already well established in the late 30s, quit acting and entered the British Army and was a Lt. Colonel by the time of the Bulge (I won't spoil it by telling you what he did, you can read the book).  THAT is pretty neat, eh?

 

Yeah, but get this.  Private Peter Ustinov was his batman (valet/assistant).  They were war buddies.  Incredible.

Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
European steam locomotives (particularly German designs) have more "Stuff" visible on the outside than their U.S. counterparts, hence this is interpreted by U.S. modelers as "more detailed."

 

 

Exhibits A and B:

012 104-6

e 2929


I must admit I have always had a soft spot for the "All black with red running gear" look of German locomotives.

I've spent time at the German RR museum in Nuremberg, which is an amazing place.

They were running these locomotives in daily service way later than almost any other industrialized nation, on mainlines until 1978 if memory serives.

I watched double headed German 2-10-0s pulling trains out of the Main River valley when I lived in Wurzburg in 1967-1968.....a great sight!  Also saw them occasionally on troop trains in the Baumholder area 1969 -'70.

"Deutsche Reichsbahn was the largest single public enterprise in the world at the time of its nationalization in 1937 . . . [and by late in the war, through absorption of Austrian, Czech, and Polish RRs, etc.] . . . operated a staggering total of 50,000 locomotives and at least three million freight cars, more than double that of the United States."  

 

The vast quantity of railroad equipment available to the nazi war machine made it possible for the German armed forces to conquer Europe.  However, that very same railroad equipment also illustrates some of the reasons why, after having overrun so many countries with lightning speed, Germany lost the war.

 

European locomotives and cars were smaller and lighter than those in use in North America during WW II.  That is still the case today.  Lighter axle load limits, tighter clearances and weaker couplers all limit locomotive, car and train size to approximately that found in North America prior to 1910.  Germany needed more locomotives and cars and (of huge importance during the war) more people to run them than US and Canadian railroads needed to haul the same amount of freight.

 

Germany had no locomotives with the weight or power of the heavy USRA designs built in America during WW I.  Germany had nothing remotely close to a Super Power Berkshire or Northern, let alone an articulated or the 1000 FT diesels built by General Motors during the war.  Their locomotives needed more man hours of maintenance per ton mile than North American locomotives.  They had to run more short trains with more small locomotives and with more small cars and had to use more people to do it.  Fortunately for the rest of the world the lack of efficiency of German Railways took manpower and material away from the German war effort.

 

During WW II the press in allied countries devoted a great deal of attention to the firepower and mobility of German armored and mechanized forces.  However, most German infantry divisions were never mechanized.  They relied on trains to move near the front.  For tactical movements the men marched and artillery and supply wagons were drawn by horses.  They did so because Germany lacked the industrial capacity to provide the majority of their army with trucks.  In contrast, Canada alone (with less than 1/6th of the German population) outproduced Germany in military trucks during WW II and supplied vehicles to all the Commonwealth countries.

 

I am fortunate to have studied the Second World War at Seattle University under Professor Bob Harmon.  Bob is a veteran of Patton's Third Army.  He recently spend his 90th birthday in the same place he spent his 20th birthday, Wiemar, Germany.  The Seattle Times ran a very nice story on Bob last week.

 

http://www.seattletimes.com/se...fter-wwii-surrender/

 

 

Ah....But If you were a P47 driver, this was a target rich environment !

 

When speaking of the drive across Europe made by the Third Army, Professor Harmon always gives great credit to the destruction wrought by the USAAF fighter bombers.  As American troops advanced from one crossroads to the next they could count on seeing the work of P-38s and P-47s - destroyed German trucks or dead German horses.

 

Last edited by Ted Hikel

Lee:

 

I think you're going to love the BR44.  As you may know , the prototype is a 3 cylinder locomotive and as such it sounds VERY different from our typical 2 cylinder units.  A couple years back, i visited the Dampflokwerke at Meiningen, Germany where there was a similar loco running under steam.  My BR44 model replicates that sound pretty well - enough to bring back memories of a great experience. 

 

As someone mentioned, the German locos have more external equipment, all of which adds to the "detailed" sense of this model, but there are lots of other details accurately modeled that are not included with most of our steamers.  The bottom of the boiler is "closed" like it is on many brass models.  The drive gear and valve gear for the third (center) cylinder is accurately modeled (including the cranks on the drive axles) as is all the underframe linkage for the brakes.  Perhaps the most interesting feature, to me, is the spring loaded apparatus connecting the loco and tender.  This allows the tender to be close coupled to the engine on tangent track and spreads the coupling when rounding a curve.  The action isn't really noticeable in operation, but the close coupling looks great.  I only wish I understood German so I could understand the cab chatter.

 

Enjoy your new "toy".

It's my understanding that the Third Reich actually had plans for a railway with a track gauge of almost 10 feet ("breitspurbahn").  An interesting concept, but considering who was behind it, it's probably a good thing it was never built.

I do have a soft spot for European trains, but due to cost and space, I have decided to limit models to HO/OO.  (I am, of course, keeping my Lionel Shakespeare Express!)  Now, if MTH decides to release European equipment in their RailKing line, I may reconsider.
Originally Posted by GCRailways:
It's my understanding that the Third Reich actually had plans for a railway with a track gauge of almost 10 feet ("breitspurbahn").  An interesting concept, but considering who was behind it, it's probably a good thing it was never built.


Just like Hitler's plans for Berlin in a postwar victorious Germany, that Uber large RR was never going to be built, even if they had won the war (or ground us to a condtional surrender at the end of 45 or into 46). I've read that the Reichsbahn people scratched their heads at those designs, wondering how they'd be able to actually build the thing as it would require whole new grades and allignments all over Europe (into a defeated Russia), not to mention the rolling stock.

There are some interesting artist renderings here, including some models I think in that museum in Nuremberg I mentioned before: http://www.breitspurbahn.de/3000.html

I may need to check that book out. My uncle won the bronze star at the Battle of the Bulge, and my Dad got there just as they were mopping up the last bits of the bulge.

 

Someone could write (and maybe someone has written?) a book about 'celebrities' in WW2. I find it interesting to hear the stories of actors, athletes, politicians, etc. that served in the war and what they did.


BTW Peter Ustinov once said the worst job he ever had was right after WW2 while still in the Army, he had to help edit the raw footage taken in the captured death camps. He spent like 12 hours a day for several weeks just looking at footage of the victims of the atrocities carried out in the camps.

Originally Posted by wjstix:

BTW Peter Ustinov once said the worst job he ever had was right after WW2 while still in the Army, he had to help edit the raw footage taken in the captured death camps. He spent like 12 hours a day for several weeks just looking at footage of the victims of the atrocities carried out in the camps.

People today don't get the impact those films had. We're all desensitized to it now, most of us having grown up with the knowledge and seeing those films so many times over the decades.
But imagine what reaction that would have had on an audience (especially a stateside US one) for the very first time.

And yet, people still say it never happened. That's like saying the Titanic never sank...

Originally Posted by jaygee:

Trains mag. did a detailed account of the Uber-wide gauge railway some years back. It looked like trouble looking for a place to happen.  Third Reich gave us a big chunk of our space program, and the incredible VW Beetle...when it comes to chooch, we're best when we write our own book !


August 1984 issue. Highly recommended.

Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by GCRailways:
It's my understanding that the Third Reich actually had plans for a railway with a track gauge of almost 10 feet ("breitspurbahn").  An interesting concept, but considering who was behind it, it's probably a good thing it was never built.

 

There are some interesting artist renderings here, including some models I think in that museum in Nuremberg I mentioned before: http://www.breitspurbahn.de/3000.html

That's an interesting contrast between the super-wide gauge and the 0-6-0 longboiler museum pics from bigboy4014. (The green loco #3143) The wheelbases were so short that the boiler overhang was quite large at both ends, but they could handle the tighter curves and coal mine areas with a decent size train. The comments are true enough; in congested Europe, where would they have built such a monster wide-gauge railroad? (Not to mention the massive fuel logistics) 

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