Dilemma over LHS

You can't ignore the huge savings in going mail-order. Plain and simple. You didn't create the supply/pricing structure that Lionel uses, but you can't ignore it either. 

Also, can the local store handle repairs on Legacy items? Most can't so thus, you're sending it to Lionel anyway.

You've already made your decision and decided what to do - you spent your money elsewhere.

You're going to get absolution here.

Well, if you live in New York State, you will have to declare that purchase and pay the sales tax anyway...

There are precious few LHS in my part of the country - actually, they are pretty rare in most areas of the country - but I have occasionally tried to support one when it shows up. But, when the price/savings spread is too much (certainly a judgement call) and the shop doesn't seem top "get it" ("really - I'll pay more to buy it from you...but it's a 2-way street..."), I just move on.

Plus - I have never had that "want to/need to see/touch it to buy it" issue. Trusted dealer and trusted manufacturer? Sign me up and ship it; I'll touch it when it gets here. And - this sounds like bragging, but it's not - I'm a pretty savvy and informed shopper, and I know the products well, in the categories that interest me.

Your nearby LHS doesn't seem to "get it". Had one like that around here. Faded set boxes on the shelf; still wouldn't take my honestly reasonable offers. They're gone now. 

I faced the same dilemma at my LHS. It basically comes down to, do you want to spend extra money just to take part in charity or do you want to have that extra money available for more trains. I refuse to order any big ticket items from my LHS because of the massive amount of money I can save buying the same items from big dealer forum sponsors. I still go to my LHS to buy smaller things such as smoke fluid and little odds and ends. I also order relatively cheaper items from them like the last run of vision line reefers. But even that is getting to the point that It's silly to spend so much extra money just to suppprt them.

You'll hear the argument from many on this forum that a LHS can provide better customer service. The reality is most of the form sponsors who have large internet stores can provide equal if not better customer service. Also, consider that when you spend money with the form sponsors you are both getting a better deal on your purchase and at the same time thru the grapevine supporting this form which you obviously use. 

If your hard earned money is as important to you as mine is then you will realize that handing it out to you LHS just to keep them in business is foolish. I know it sounds harsh but if they don't find a way on there own to stay competitive than they won't stick around much longer anyway, regardless if you buy from them or not. I have watched many of my favorite childhood train stores shut their doors and it is sad but paying significantly higher prices to keep them going is just a temporary fix to a problem they need to figure out.

The internet dictates the market now a days and the local shops suffer for the most part as far as walk in store sales. When I'm looking at a new purchase I look at some reviews and watch it run or operate on YouTube then I make up my mind if I want it. If I do then I google the item and search out the best price and who ever gives me the most for my dollars will make a sale that day.

Actually, Rob, that's the law in most states that have a sales tax.  It's called a "use tax."  No comment on the level of compliance by individuals.

There are two things to look for when buying anywhere....Customer service and price.  Price is a big factor but customer service is to.  For example, I won't shop at Walmart because they always have ridiculously long check out lines and almost zero customer service.  They basically put all their bets in cheap prices while neglecting just about everything else.  That's just not for me.  Now how much more would I pay for something for better customer service?  Well certainly not MSRP.  I do quite well with mail order price and customer service wise and you can too.  Bottom line is don't feel beholden to any store that doesn't provide the best overall value to you.  That's what competition is all about.  BigRail 

Don't ever feel obligated to shop at a LHS.  

My opinion is that it is worthwhile to pay the premium price IF you get something of value in return.  If you get great service, have a fun place to hang out, or something else that has value to you, then it might be worth spending the extra money at the LHS.  If you don't get extra value, then save a few bucks and shop elsewhere.

Jim

Buy where you get the most value for your money, however you define that.

For me it's price.   Today's successful businesses have an Internet prescience and sell at less than MSRP to be competitive.

When Jim's Train Shop in Homer City, PA was active I considered him my LHS that was 600 miles away.

Wow, Great Question, and there will be  Lots of Diversified Answers!!  Although Price is important, a really nice hobby store with a really great selection of trains (All Gauges) and related merchandise is hard to find today. The top 10 Lionel Dealers with their Mail Order Pricing is very tempting to use. (Remember there could be damages in shipping)  The dealer, and I do not know anything about this particular dealer that sticks with MSRP, should allow his truly good customers a price concession on big ticket items. My hobby shop is a 2 hour drive, been in business for many many years and carries a huge stock of train and related merchandise stays as competitive as he can without My Asking..... I just pay a little more than those advertised in CTT, OGR, or other magazines.  My advice, bring up Your thoughts on his or her pricing, allow them to become more competitive, or Buy somewhere else.....We are in a New Generation of Buying where "Loyalty" so to speak, has flown out the Window.... So, to sum up my reply, if the dealer helps you with repairs, advice on how to make your trains run better, building a layout, with wiring, with possibly a little credit, such as 90 days same as cash, Then, stick with this dealer.  We want our Local Hobby Shops to stay in business, However, We must make this a good business decision, after all, making a living today is a bit harder than it used to be. 

I work for HONDA, and believe me, MSRP is a thing of the Past!! When folks come to buy a new or Pre-Owned Automobile or Truck from me, THEY would run if we did not negotiate our numbers.....................NUFF SAYD   Merry Christmas to You ALL.

I have been struggling with this during the week also. My nearest lhs is well known for repair and a minor sponsor here. Their pricing on many things is horrible. I did buy 072 fastrack there this week. But my daughter wants polar express and their price is $430 whereas marios has it $259 or Amazon $275. This isn't even close and I had thought msrp was $399 so idk how it's 430. A lot of comments here make sense though

True story and something to think about.... I knew a guy who built decks and such for a living.  He would charge three times what it would normally cost from a "reasonable" builder.  His philosophy was that if he got a few people to pay that price then he would have to build far fewer decks a year to make his money.  How does he stay in business?  Yup....he finds a few people here and there that either don't have a clue and and don't bother to get other estimate's or maybe they have money and just don't care. I'm always amazed when I find out he is still in business.  Now apply that information to one of those hobby shops where you wonder how the heck are they still in business?  Yes, I know that some hobby shop's have little choice in their pricing because of their location, rent, taxes or whatever.  If you have enough money to not care or are uniformed and don't want to bother shopping around then MSRP might be for you.  But if you are like the majority of people, the answer becomes a lot easier.  BigRail

No dilemma here.  Most of my purchases are done on line.  My LHS (Model Train Stuff/M.B. Klein) is on line with an up to date inventory.  Heck I even buy my tooth paste on line (Amazon Prime).  The added value for me is that everything is delivered to my front door and I don't have to deal with anyone else. 

I have been struggling with this during the week also. My nearest lhs is well known for repair and a minor sponsor here. Their pricing on many things is horrible. I did buy 072 fastrack there this week. But my daughter wants polar express and their price is $430 whereas marios has it $259 or Amazon $275. This isn't even close and I had thought msrp was $399 so idk how it's 430. A lot of comments here make sense though.

Would you walk into the store, and just hand the owner $171? That's what you would be doing if you purchased the Polar Express set from the local store as opposed to Marios.

When I was buying newly made trains, I preordered everything from my local hobby shop. But the price differences on my purchases were small. Eventually I switched to mail order, because to many of the pieces from the local shop had shopworn boxes, and the store seemed to get their merchandise long after the mail order folks did.

The services I sell are priced less than what 70% of my full service competitors charge.  Most of the competitors who charge less don't do as good a job.  There is also some cut rate internet competition.  I usually have no interest in trying to match rates charged by those who provide lower quality service for smaller jobs for one-time clients. There is some wiggle room in my pricing though, so if you have a big job, especially if you are a long term customer, I may be willing to offer a discount if I can still make a reasonable profit from the job.

Point is when it comes to large purchases supporting your LHS does not necessarily mean paying his normal prices.  It also means giving him an opportunity to make the sale to you at a discount rate before you take your business elsewhere.

jd-train posted:

Don't ever feel obligated to shop at a LHS.  

My opinion is that it is worthwhile to pay the premium price IF you get something of value in return.  If you get great service, have a fun place to hang out, or something else that has value to you, then it might be worth spending the extra money at the LHS.  If you don't get extra value, then save a few bucks and shop elsewhere.

Jim

This is so true!  There is little you can get in return if your LHS wants to charge full retail or more.  As others have posted, Internet pricing is driving todays business.  The days of 40 point margins are over.  My LHS gets it.  His prices are inline with many online retailers.  I say inline because he is still typically a bit more but he includes NJ state sales tax in his prices and there is no shipping.

In my mind any retailer that demands full list price has their days numbered.  I support my LHS, but he also takes care of me.  That is the value I get.

Tony

It sounds silly to state you support the LHS on what is a BTO time which makes it somewhat a specialty set ESE and grief over knowing what the bird in the hand is over a bird in the bush. IMHO if I include shipping and my LHS has it on hand and it works, It is a no brainer I buy it. My LHS even works to meet my budget on speciality items or even allow a layaway option. I even looked the price up on Trainworld and with shipping you are in the same ballpark. If you support them then show it buy locally. I agree with the Walmart example I avoid them simply because Walmart has no personal service and the employees have not a clue where it is located.

I have bought items many times from my LHS and paid a few bucks more for it simply because I wont them there for service and just a fun place to hang out on my day off. That said, common sense is common sense. They have to give me something in return for my loyalty.

If you can save a few bucks on line and still get the support you wont on line then I say go for it.

You can always buy some track or rolling stock from the local guy to help them out. Again friendship is a two way street, if  the local guy is selling track at list and another place is twenty percent less then the local shop should be limited to a one or two piece purchase. After all, that is the business they are going after with their price mark.

It's a new world.......

change the only constant.

tough one

The key is delivering VALUE.  And only you can determine what that means for you.  A successful business will remain relevant to its customer base, and that of course means providing good value.  Doesn't necessarily need to be the cheapest guy around... but they've got to deliver value.

Having said that... if they're standing firm on Lionel's nosebleed-territory MSRP's nowadays, they're gonna have a huge challenge delivering value. 

Lionel is already losing customers left and right over typical street-pricing nowadays.  Who the heck is gonna pay their MSRP's, which are a joke?    

Train shops holding out for MSRP have a pipe dream for a business plan and are pretty much on borrowed time.  They're essentially asking customers to pay for their problems (i.e., high internal product cost, overhead of owning the store, need to turn a profit, etc...).  It's not the consumers job to keep the LHS in business.  It's the LHS's job to stay as relevant as possible to the consumer... keeping things a win-win as much as possible. 

David

I've wished for a good LHS for more than 30 years.  Model trains are just popular in the Deep South.  A new hobby shop open up 80-90 miles away in SE Alabama.  It moved their after the owners retired and wanted to be near children.

They are well stocked in O scale; surprisingly more than any other scale.  I asked them how much of their business comes from the internet -- 85%!  They have and on-line store, and they discount.  I mentioned that it was an on-line store and not an on-line presence.

I let my fingers do the typing  and not the walking. 

For a LHS to survive they need sales.  To get those sales they need the internet.

Jan

I frequent my LHS because I want them to succeed and stay in business and that they are good people and very helpful to me. That said,  I admit that paying the MSRP there hurts.

I wouldn't mind so much if I felt the service was that much better. I have just recently this year gotten back into O. I honestly have seen little reason to support local business. This completely grates against everything in me though as I like to support local in most endeavors. I had called yesterday about the National train day today and if they will have anything going on. Not much but we will have an open house. Ok. will you be running your trains (they have a few nice layouts in the store that I have never seen operate). Yeah, oh yes we will be running our trains. I took my children in there and if I hadn't asked they would not have even said anything about the train day even though they had signs up. I inquired no we aren't doing anyting. blah blah blah. I was and am just like, WOW. Well some decisions are easier than others to make and sometimes people help you out in making them.

C W Burfle posted:

I have been struggling with this during the week also. My nearest lhs is well known for repair and a minor sponsor here. Their pricing on many things is horrible. I did buy 072 fastrack there this week. But my daughter wants polar express and their price is $430 whereas marios has it $259 or Amazon $275. This isn't even close and I had thought msrp was $399 so idk how it's 430. A lot of comments here make sense though.

Would you walk into the store, and just hand the owner $171? That's what you would be doing if you purchased the Polar Express set from the local store as opposed to Marios.

Haha of course I would not, and good point.

Lots of interesting opinions here, and I've enjoyed reading them.  I'm fortunate that my LHS is also a major mail-order (to use the archaic term) seller, and he "gets it" by offering discounts to his in-state buyers to offset some of the sales tax bite and the fact that he doesn't need to ship the item.

But here are some other random thoughts on both sides of the issue, in no particular order...

The margin between wholesale and MSRP is smaller for Lionel and MTH trains than for many other retail items.  This makes it more costly for the LHS to keep items in stock, especially slow-moving big ticket stuff.

I resent going to the full-retail LHS, only to be waited on by folks who are uninformed or indifferent.  A local franchise LHS is notorious for this - they hire smart-mouthed kids who don't care ("can you show me where X is?" points and says "yeah, it's over there somewhere").  However, it's hard to find smart folks who are willing to work for $8-10 per hour.  Vicious cycle - lousy employees drive customers away, leading to lower profits, leading to fewer employees, leading to even more customer loss.

I like the convenience of getting parts, tools, etc. at the LHS, but that's not enough to keep them in business.  And when they don't stock the small items I need, I'm less inclined to pay a premium for the larger items.  Another vicious circle.  Same thing applies for a lot of other retailers - if you don't stock parts, why should I bother buying the primary item from you?

How much is it worth to keep your money local, and let it multiply locally?

I think we need to level the playing field by finding an equitable way to charge sales tax (or not) and collect it consistently on all purchases.  It's unfair and makes no sense for a retailer to have an advantage just because of which side of a state line they're located on.  (The use tax laws for out-of-state purchases are a toothless joke.) 

From my perspective as a very small eBAy seller, collecting and paying sales tax in 49 states would be an impossible paperwork burden.  I do pay CA sales tax on all CA sales.  That is just one return for one state which is manageable.  This is the reason that I am opposed to an internet tax.

I have and will pay full MSRP at a hobby shop when the shop has an item in stock and I may not be able to find it elsewhere.  I suppose that you will eventually find everything that you are looking for on the internet at sometime but it may be a long time.  Modern trains are built to order and may be hard to find if you didn't pre-order them.  

I have that many hobby shops will offer an discount if you ask.  This is especially true if you are long time customer.  Sometimes, the hobby shop will offer to pay the sales tax and of course there is no shipping charge when you carry the item home.  One shop gave me a discount on a 3-rail item because I was a NMRA member.  Another hobby shop gives a discount to local model railroad club members.  As a result, nearly all the club's members shop there and the club shops there for all the items that it needs.  

Another service that a hobby shop can give you is layaway.  I have bought many trains at full MSRP using layaway.  The value of layaway more than offset the slightly higher price.

NH Joe

Not all model railroad items have small margins.  Track, accessories, commodity cars and engines all have margins that are near 50%.  On the other hand, high-end items, like the BTO, have a much lower margin.  Perhaps as low as 20%.

Your big dealers are able to discount deeper because they have volume.

Jan

Bill N posted:

The services I sell are priced less than what 70% of my full service competitors charge.  Most of the competitors who charge less don't do as good a job.  There is also some cut rate internet competition.  I usually have no interest in trying to match rates charged by those who provide lower quality service for smaller jobs for one-time clients. There is some wiggle room in my pricing though, so if you have a big job, especially if you are a long term customer, I may be willing to offer a discount if I can still make a reasonable profit from the job.

Point is when it comes to large purchases supporting your LHS does not necessarily mean paying his normal prices.  It also means giving him an opportunity to make the sale to you at a discount rate before you take your business elsewhere.

It funny how one person doesn't read the entire OP and comments on what they think I wrote not on what I actually wrote. And then others, in this case Bill, comment not on my OP but on the post that garbled what I wrote.  No worries, and I don't mean to pick on this post, as I see a lot of this on all kinds of forums.  But to set the record straight, I did say their prices are " MSRP or higher."  Also said "they will not negotiate."  Meaning, I've brought up the subject and this is what they have said. They are certainly very nice about it, but they will tell you that they pay near what they charge because they aren't a top 5 seller to get big discounts from distributors, so they can't sell for less.   Is this true or not?  I am not close enough to the workings of the hobby to know, so I don't really think about it  

At this point, I do what others here say they do - buy some smaller stuff from them, but can't justify paying so much more for items available anywhere else for much less.  

Jan posted:

Not all model railroad items have small margins.  Track, accessories, commodity cars and engines all have margins that are near 50%.  On the other hand, high-end items, like the BTO, have a much lower margin.  Perhaps as low as 20%.

Your big dealers are able to discount deeper because they have volume.

Jan

He had the 2010 Lionel - not BTO - RS-16 train set on a shelf since 2010 priced at MSRP and recently said if someone offered him $50 less than his asking price he might consider it, given this item hasn't sold. 

In terms of "big dealers able to discount due to volume," isn't that assuming they only deal in trains?  Here, he has an entire toy and hobby store - wouldn't business 101 dictate that this allows him to offset ups and downs on any slow or expensive items with popular, fast moving or less expensive items?  Just saying...

"Lionel is already losing customers left and right over typical street-pricing nowadays.  "

Data or just your opinion?

Like most, I do a combination of local and internet purchases.  Internet has the advantage of not having to get in your car and travel, which is getting increasingly attractive, as the level of driving skill is deteriorating because of Lionel's crazy MSRP pricing.  .

PJB, I do exactly what you've described. If I'm looking for an older item, I don't bother with ANY LHS, I go straight to the Bay and usually get 50% off original retail. If I'm buying a new release, I go thru an on-line dealer with a good discount.

However, I enjoy walking in a train store! I love seeing an operating layout. And if I like what I see I don't mind making a small donation.

Just a few days ago I stopped by a LHS on my way home from Six Flags. Love their layout, nice staff too. I bought $10 worth of small gauge wire. Tremendously over priced, but I don't like leaving empty handed when I like what I've seen. Sometimes I'll buy a couple magazines, sometimes a bottle of smoke fluid, sometimes a Thomas piece. 

From my perspective as a very small eBAy seller, collecting and paying sales tax in 49 states would be an impossible paperwork burden.  I do pay CA sales tax on all CA sales.  That is just one return for one state which is manageable.  This is the reason that I am opposed to an internet tax.

An internet tax (law) would almost certainly have provisions for sellers to fill out one form and pay a central distribution point. This could be a government entity, or a private company, such as PayPal.
The amount to be collected / dispersed would probably have to be determined by zip code, therefore some localities might have to adjust their rates if they don't align with zip codes.
It's all very easy with computers.

I also believe that the current sales tax structure gives internet companies an unfair advantage. That said, today's high shipping costs has taken away some of that edge.

C W Burfle posted:

From my perspective as a very small eBAy seller, collecting and paying sales tax in 49 states would be an impossible paperwork burden.  I do pay CA sales tax on all CA sales.  That is just one return for one state which is manageable.  This is the reason that I am opposed to an internet tax.

An internet tax (law) would almost certainly have provisions for sellers to fill out one form and pay a central distribution point. This could be a government entity, or a private company, such as PayPal.
The amount to be collected / dispersed would probably have to be determined by zip code, therefore some localities might have to adjust their rates if they don't align with zip codes.
It's all very easy with computers.

I also believe that the current sales tax structure gives internet companies an unfair advantage. That said, today's high shipping costs has taken away some of that edge.

Curious why some folks think that shipping fees are so high?  And that they offset taxes?  Fir instance, I bought an entire train set and taxes would have been nearly $180, but the shipping fees were $57.  I bought the VLBB and taxes would have been around the same $180, but shipping was $23. 

Charles Ro charges all of 9 bucks for shipping, I believe, except for select items.  On high dollar items, sales tax far exceeds that, obviously.  Sales taxes are the most regressive of taxes, harming the poor and working class the most, so frankly, I consider them unethical and contemptible. Although trains are the least of my issues with sales taxes that include clothing in most states.

I am Fortunate to have a Local TRAIN Store, not just a Hobby shop. My LTS has prices near MSRP on many things, but is also willing to "Deal". I have been a customer of my LTS since 1974, when it opened, and I was 9 years old. Currently in their second location and fourth owner IIRC, and the current owner has owned the place I believe for over 20 years now, and was an employee before that.

 Needless to say, I am a well known and recognized regular, I will usually buy smaller items without asking for a discount, and will ask the owner about a discount on larger items, but I have even had employees give me unrequested discounts as well. If I know that I am going to order an expensive item such as a Legacy Steam Locomotive, I will talk to the owner and see what kind of price he can offer. I usually try to pay CASH, and He knows that it wont be sitting on the shelf an unknown amount of time, he can make an attractive offer quite often.

 We don't have a sales tax in Oregon(but they keep trying) so we don't have THAT retail disadvantage. When I consider price, I not only consider the shipping to GET an item, but unfortunately, these days, with electronics packed locomotives, I also figure the shipping back to the MFGR, at LEAST ONCE. My LTS does give me great service, when I ordered my Legacy FEF-3's (original run) The Black one must have been returned to the distributor, before it was sent to my LTS, I opened the box, and it was JUST the locomotive and tender, NO paperwork, small parts including the programing module, not even the plastic and foam wrappings. They know me well enough that they didn't even question it. Had that been an on-line/mail order sale, the shipping back probably would have been on ME, it is for warranty service, (But SHOULDN'T BE, in my opinion, if it doesn't work the MFGR, should pay the return shipping, NOT the customer).

There is a point where I will buy, on line, or elsewhere, and that is judged on a case by case basis, the $430 price on a $399 MSRP for the PE set, that was available for $259, is a perfect example, I couldn't justify THAT either, NO Shame in that decision in my opinion.

 I also Enjoy visiting with the crew and other customers at the shop, and when 5-6 years ago, things got Really Lean at work, I hadn't been by the shop in a long time, they asked where I had been, and I mentioned things being slow at work, they said stop by and visit anyway, you don't have to buy something every time you come in, swing by and just say Hi, once in awhile.

 I do feel Lucky to have a shop like that nearby, and feel sorry for those who don't. I don't want to have to order ground cover, smoke fluid, trees, track and a multitude of small things, on line, sometimes you NEED something and waiting several days for shipping simply SUCKS. Last Christmas, I needed some Real Trax switches, for under the Tree, they had some a couple weeks before, before I knew that I would need them, but they had sold them and hadn't gotten any in yet, Peterson Supply, is located here in Portland, and the shop was able to call Andy, he had them, and I was able to pick them up from him on my way home, had what I wanted and got the Tree layout up and running that night, there were some Very Happy Kids in my Wife's Daycare the next day.

 I wont say that EVERYTHING is bought at my LTS, but, I don't mind paying a reasonable difference to support them when I can. I think most, if they had the experience I have had with my LTS, would feel the same way, of course there are those that only consider price, and that is their prerogative. I am Glad that Whistle Stop Trains is there, and I Hope that it never joins the fallen flags club that so many other LHS/LTS's have.

Doug

Landsteiner posted:

"Lionel is already losing customers left and right over typical street-pricing nowadays.  "

Data or just your opinion?

Like most, I do a combination of local and internet purchases.  Internet has the advantage of not having to get in your car and travel, which is getting increasingly attractive, as the level of driving skill is deteriorating because of Lionel's crazy MSRP pricing.  .

Lionel's pricing is part of the reason, I haven't been buying High End Locomotives the last couple of years, but for ME, it has been MY Experiences with their poor QC in electronics, and poor customer service regarding those failures.

 YES, I KNOW, that some here have had no problems, and others have had Lionel go above and beyond expectations, but in MY experience, Lionel's Customer service has gone down hill since about 2008-9 when I used to Sing their Praises for customer service. Your Mileage may Vary, but Lionel's CS, seems to have gotten inconsistent in the last 7-8 years, and in MY EXPERINCE, it leaves a LOT to be desired.

Doug

Landsteiner posted:

Charles Ro charges all of 9 bucks for shipping, I believe, except for select items.  ...

Not as simple as that.  To be more accurate, Charlie's shipping charge is based on two components:  total dollars spent in an order, and the number of shipments needed to fulfill an entire order.  He may charge $9 shipping for starter-sets, but that's largely because they fall within a certain pricing tier, where the shipping charge happens to be $9.

CW's point is well-taken for most of us mere mortals shipping stuff around the country.  Shipping prices have risen noticably over the past few years, but Charlie's pricing tiers for shipping charges haven't changed all that much -- if at all.    Most likely due to the raw volume of shipping he's doing every day, he's paying a lot less to ship a package than you or I or even a small LHS would.

While shipping charges haven't eclipsed the sales tax amount in most cases, they are certainly eating away at the "no sales tax" advantage enjoyed by most out-of-state purchases.  The biggest hit is understandably cross-country shipping, which is the case for us East coast folks buying from 3rd Rail / GGD.  The shipping charges for an 8-car El Capitan purchase (shipping in 2 packages) could well exceed half the sales tax amount if those were purchased instate at a LHS.

Bottom line... Shipping ain't cheap.

David

Whether to pay full retail at an LHS or pay a discounted price from an online or mail order shop depends on service. This can really be extended to any retailer. If a retailer helps me with my decision, educates me on the comparative products, and provides some level of post-sale service, I have no issue paying a higher retail price. Retailers (whether for toy trains, bikes, etc.) who simply take orders do not receive my business; retailers who are helpful in the buy process do.