Dining car kitchen

That certainly would have been a neat experience to take in a meal in a dining car while on a trip.  I have accepted God's wise choice in putting me on this earth in 1956.  Thanks for the photos, Jim!!

Doesn't appear much has changed.  Below photo, Budd car kitchen on VIA rail, first class dining.

 

Kent in SD

The Budd car kitchen looks a lot bigger. I saw a real one somewhere, maybe Altoona, and it was pretty small and crude.

The dining cars are still outdated. Amtrak needs to build new ones. The train I was on 3 weeks ago had a dining car that must have been made in the 50's.

But some like the history, the nostalgia, as long as the food is fresh.

Yeah, that Budd car is double the size in both directions, and it has the china where the windows used to be instead of above the pass-through window.  Probably much safer being placed on the counter that way!  

Unless there are windows on the left side, having no windows seems to be a cruel trend of the 50's era kitchens.  I'm no expert, just observing off the top of my head from the handful of car interiors and exteriors that I've seen to date ...

Nice photos, all.

Tomlinson Run RR

Many decades ago I fixed breakfast on a heritage private car (French Toast, Belgian style). While very small, it was very well laid-out and I could see how a cook and a waiter could prepare and serve great meals from that little space. As I remember their was a window.

Cooking a full meal for 40+ people in the  rail car kitchen would make it a busy place. Would be a great study in motion. Like a ballet.

jim pastorius posted:

Cooking a full meal for 40+ people in the  rail car kitchen would make it a busy place. Would be a great study in motion. Like a ballet.

Not only VERY busy but, they made EVERYTHING from scratch. My wife is a collector of cook books, and the previous manager of the Union Pacific Steam Shop obtained an original copy of the UP dining car "cook book" from the Commissary Dept., and gave it to her one Christmas, some years ago. They even made their own salad dressing AND mayonnaise from scratch!

A dining car cook book would be very interesting  reading. I can see why they made it from scratch because it would be cheaper and easier to store the raw ingredients  rather than cans and bottles of the finished product. Plus easier to replenish along the RR line. Over the years when I would eat in a diner I would watch the cook hard at work during the rush hour. A different look would be the kitchen cars on a WWII troop train.  Maybe  cans of rations in hot water ??  Not for the air force and navy but the grunts would get it.

Except for the Viewliner diners that are slowly being delivered the diners "are" from the 1950's. Even with rebuilding they are reaching their end. Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star apparently for this reason but claims it to "offer reduced cost service as meals are no longer bundled with sleeper prices". Going to FL at Christmas on this train has become a nightmare as there is one cafe car only and a full train, lines to the counters out of the car.

We always loved the diner--seating a tables with "strangers" and talking, a chance to get out of the bedroom. Now we take food with us--what they offer in the cafe is the same microwaved junk as on the regional trains. Hard to go 24 hours on microwaved pizza.

Rumor among the train crew is that the diner may return but I'm not hopeful given the current tight state of affairs with Amtrak financing.

 

TRRR  I have a CLASSIC TRAINS issue from  2001 tha gives a full article on WW II troop cars including a nice write up on kitchen car. If you are interested  I will send it to you.   Jim P.

Just sent an aluminum blank to be machined for a Budd diner delivered to  NP in 1959, for the North Coast limited.  From what I can find this diner is still in service on Amtrak. 

 Hotwater. from personal experience the UP commissary department was no slouch.  The food was always great. I wished I could find my childhood photos as when ever the Corps traveled the Dining car was my favorite part.  Mr. Dean and his stewards Mr. J and Rudy were the best.

Gentleman don't forget,  you can still experience the good food and service on single level stainless steel cars, on the VIA Rail Canadian, everything prepared on board. Complete with Dome observation car.

I wish I had taken pictures of the many kitchens (or galleys as we call them) that I have worked in over the years.  It is a real challenge preparing meals for 60 passengers in a full dome car, but it is very fun.  It is nice to have a good size galley, where there is enough room to stow everything you need.  With rail cars, there is not alot of room in the first place for storing stuff needed. But I don't like to big of galley, because when you are moving, it easier to keep your balance and also to reach everything at arms length.  I'm 6'1" tall, so ceiling heights can be a challenge also. I work on private rail cars and really like the older authentic galleys with modern equipment.  All of our appliances are electric. I can remember stocking our car for a weekend excursion at the Amtrak coach yard in Chicago.  We had pretty much had to load anything and everything we needed for a whole trip on to the car. It's like going camping and not forgetting anything, because you can't stop at a store and pick up stuff you forgot, out in the woods. I remember a weekend trip to St. Paul/Minneapolis a few years back, when on our return trip back to Chicago, we ran out of ice.  We had finished lunch service, but would not have enough ice for the bar service or dinner.  I had to come up with plan to get ice. Thank gosh for cell phones, because I called ahead to businesses that would be open at our next station stop, and ask them to deliver us ice. Remember now we would be stopping long enough to drop and board only a few passengers, usually no longer than 2-3 minutes.  Well I found a tavern that was open on a Sunday in La Crosse, WI that said he would be waiting for our train at the platform.  An Attendant and myself jumped off the train when we arrived at the stop and ran to meet this guy. He had two large buckets of ice waiting for us, which we dumped into a large bag, paid him for his time and ran back to board our car, just as it was pulling out. This is a picture of my crew and me back in 2014, when we worked a weekend trip from Chicago to Kansas City and back. The full dome car was the Scenic View from Pullman Journeys in Chicago.

 Jim

 

clem k posted:

Gentleman don't forget,  you can still experience the good food and service on single level stainless steel cars, on the VIA Rail Canadian, everything prepared on board. Complete with Dome observation car.

Hmmm...I haven't been North of the border in over 35 years, and it is only a 4-hour drive away!  I don't know when I will have time or money for all these trips I want to take.  Thanks, Clem!!

IBEW701 Jim,

That is a great story about the ice, and great to have your insight from your years of working in the galleys!!  Thank you so much for your input!!

Great posts, everybody.  Hotwater, that's neat that your wife collects cookbooks.  I'm someone who loves just reading cookbooks to relax when I have some down time (they're a heck of a lot more interesting than poetry! ).  Here are some links to PDF downloads of scanned PRR and other historic dining car cookbooks that she, the chefs, and chef wannabes among us might enjoy:

PRR Dining Car Dept Cooking Instructions

PRR Cooking And Serving May 1932

And while searching for the link for the first PRR cookbook for this reply, I stumbled on a few more items of general interest.

The "Railroad Dining Car Archives" has some web page-based scans and also a 1940s UP cookbook you can download. The online archives feature UP, C&NW, and SP lines.

PRR Cooking Service Instructions 1947 (webpages)

Union Pacific Dining Car Manual Cookbook 1940s

This blog has a discussion that includes Canadian Railways (for Clem), Erie Lakawana, and other RR recipes/books.

As a foodie and fan of RR china/memorabilia, I found the PRR book at the first link above interesting.  There's no real hand-holding.  You have to have some cooking "chops" (no pun intended) to know how to prepare some of the dishes.  And, as HW said, there's so much prior prep work -- some of the sauce bases took hours to create from scratch before they could be used for dinner.

There were so many rules to keep in mind about when to add an extra serving plate under a plate, bowl, or glass -- all depending on the item being served.  I can't imagine whipping up a batch of recipes for multiple tables under that kind of pressure and then having to remember which of 6-zillion plate variations to pop under the dish.

So far I've only made the PRR dressing.  I thought my "93-year old railfan mother", as I like to call her, might enjoy the sensory experience.  Unfortunately, my hand slipped big time when adding the salt.  I didn't have enough of the other ingredients to offset my error.  I still have a batch of that salty stuff left in the home "reefer" :-}.

Tomlinson Run Railroad

TrainDavid, how lucky to have had an opportunity to try out cooking breakfast (everybody's favorite meal) in a private car setting.  And IBEW701/Jim, wow. Where to begin?  I am really impressed.  And what a great story about the ice. I found your remarks about liking the older style galleys that have been updated with modern appliances very interesting.  I'm mulling over a possible dining car modeling project.  I've been thinking of taking my 1920s-style car and updating the kitchen interior as though it was for a modern excursion train.  That way I can pop in cool electric regular and decaf coffee makers that I just found in O scale but still have the streamlined efficiency of the smaller old-style kitchens for storing plates and passing food through to the pantry.

Fantastic pictures, too, by the way!  (But boy, that ceiling headroom sure is tight!)

Tomlinson Run Railroad

Hello Mark....... I travel on the Canadian, Vancouver to Toronto 3 years in a row, in the winter, Its about 1/2 price. You have to wait for the good deals. My normal route is Toledo,Chicago, Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal,  Schenectady, Toledo.   Ten days, hotel in Vancouver and Montreal. I'm looking to change that, I might just do round trip From Windsor Ontario to Toronto then Vancouver and return.  

Clem 

jim pastorius posted:

TRRR  I have a CLASSIC TRAINS issue from  2001 tha gives a full article on WW II troop cars including a nice write up on kitchen car. If you are interested  I will send it to you.   Jim P.

Jim,

Thanks for your very kind offer.  I most likely would only be interested in the kitchen car part of the article.  Do you happen to have the issue month/number handy?  If so, I can ask my library for an interlibrary loan request. They are excellent with my numerous and often wacky magazine requests for school.  I know it's an interest of yours, too, and that way you won't have to fuss with copying/mailing.  If I have no luck, perhaps a xerox if it's easy? Thanks again.

I figure you guys are all watching the Super Bowl as it's awfully quiet all of a sudden!

TRRR

TRR, glad you mentioned that, I just turned on the set in time to see the half-time show (really, the only part I'd be interested in--except for the commercials). Tomlin, Yes it was neat; at the time I was working for Solano Railcar, but as his antique auto restorer. We'd gone on some car tour, and stayed in his railcar in the Oakland Yards (that part was a bit scary!). Someone mentioned cooking in such a space would be like a ballet, and I think that's a pretty good comparison. The neat part about that breakfast is that I have my Grandfather's recipe for French Toast, which is a bit richer than what most folks get today! I suspect it's a lot like the Santa Fe's version. Well, at least he liked it! Gads, that was a long time ago--a lifetime for some folks.

David, I recently finished reading Anthony Bourdain's first autobiographical book. He frequently talks about the economy of movement of the good chefs.  Under mealtime pressure you really need everything within easy reach and can't have any wasted gestures.  That's why I'm so impressed by the layout of the earlier dining car kitchens.  Great to read that you have done auto restoration work and how it led you to a chance to cook your Grandfather's French Toast on a private car -- even if it was sitting out in the yards. :-)   I forgot the route whose French Toast I make -- it's one of the Western ones (Great Northern?).  It uses currant jelly in between two bread slices -- a nice sweet and sour touch.  Glad the boss enjoyed it.

TRRR

P.S. -- Sorry, I can't recommend the Bourdain book.  It's poorly written and organized.

All this talk about RR  dining car kitchens. My kitchen at home is about the size of one of those old RR kitchens. Thought about that as I cooked my meal tonight. My wife did cook some big meals in it but two people make it crowded.  Now if the room rocked and swayed a little I would be right there.  You can't live on French toast, though.

TRRR it is Classic Trains issue "Winter"  2001. The whole issue is about trains and WW II including an article about a German sabotage mission to blow up our railroads that was named fter my ancestor. Do you want me to fax the article to you ??

JIM, You can't live on French Toast??? Blasphemy!!! If we'd been there longer, I would have fixed some other stuff, I really liked the layout of the kitchen, Mine at home is a mess, but when I finish the remodel, it should be OK. I'm no Chef, but I do like to cook now and then.

I live on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch. Cook my own meager meal of meat & potatoes every night. Unless I treat myself to a night out at the local restaurant.  Of course while I make dinner I can run trains-they are about 10 ft away !!

jim pastorius posted:

All this talk about RR  dining car kitchens. My kitchen at home is about the size of one of those old RR kitchens. Thought about that as I cooked my meal tonight.

...

Jim, you had me laughing out loud.  My kitchen is small, too, but only slightly larger than an old RR kitchen.  If even that, as I have no pantry space.

The owner of my favorite bed and breakfast that features fine dining in a small restaurant has a true galley kitchen in a U-shape: Freezer on the left, stove in the center, and counter/pass-through to the dining room on the right. I think the dishes are stored overhead, like in the old cars.  He can churn out amazing meals for their full dining room -- probably similar to a dining car service.  

Now this restaurant kitchen is about half the size of my small kitchen, and smaller than an apartment galley kitchen.  So, I keep coming back to the importance of layout and economy of space and movement.  

These early diagrams of dining cars and chapel cars with kitchens that I've been studying are very well planned.  Heat from the stove that rises up is used to warm buns, fuel is kept below, ice is separate from heat, and so on.  Items are even sometimes stored under the floor boards. I'm curious to see how a well-planned turn-of-the century dining car kitchen plan compares to a diner building back bar kitchen.  One tends to be U-shaped, while the other is linear, but the cooking and cooling technologies seem similar.

I actually worked in a galley-sized restaurant kitchen after college but sadly all that I can remember is the grill, the pass-through window to the bar, and the dishwasher (my job).  The chef basically stayed at the grill and small counter next to it.  Except when he would take phone calls from his tipsy mother that were both loud and shall we say, quite colorful. 

All of this is to say that if I ever redo my 1966-era all original kitchen (a perfect double for the set of the TV show Mad Men), it will take its underlying design from a rail car! 

TRRR

jim pastorius posted:

TRRR it is Classic Trains issue "Winter"  2001. The whole issue is about trains and WW II including an article about a German sabotage mission to blow up our railroads that was named fter my ancestor. Do you want me to fax the article to you ??

I have no fax access (long story) but let me try interlibrary loan first.  If not, I'll give you a hollar.  It does sound like an interesting issue.  Wow, your literal ancestor, or in name only?

TRRR

clem k posted:

Hello Mark....... I travel on the Canadian, Vancouver to Toronto 3 years in a row, in the winter, Its about 1/2 price. You have to wait for the good deals. My normal route is Toledo,Chicago, Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal,  Schenectady, Toledo.   Ten days, hotel in Vancouver and Montreal. I'm looking to change that, I might just do round trip From Windsor Ontario to Toronto then Vancouver and return.  

Clem 

I was thinking Niagara Falls, but Toledo is only about 50 miles further in the opposite direction.  Maybe you have to get to Hamilton first going that way.

Jim, Why do I get the feeling that you live alone???

No, I am not "alone", I have my puppy dog and my trains.  My dear wife passed away 15 yrs ago come March and I never found a suitable replacement.  That is what I tell people but really no one would have me. No $$.

Jim, To be honest, I don't know why Linda puts up with me! There are train bits all around the house (also a lot of Steamboat stuff) and she loves the die cast cars, and finds them for "us." Right now she makes more $$ than I do. Someone called me a "kept man."

eddie g posted:

The dining cars are still outdated. Amtrak needs to build new ones. The train I was on 3 weeks ago had a dining car that must have been made in the 50's.

I'm not sure what you think you can change, certainly not much with respect to the floor plan. The car body is about ten feet wide. About two feet of that is lost to the through aisle, leaving just under 8' for the cooking space. 24" counter tops and built in appliances on each side, leaves about 3' wide cooking space. Gotta be able to open ovens and refrigerator doors, and two people have to get past one another.

As train people, don't we all want to ride cars from the heritage fleet?

Mark Boyce posted:

IBEW701 Jim,

That is a great story about the ice, and great to have your insight from your years of working in the galleys!!  Thank you so much for your input!!

Mark, I'll let you in on a little secret. That's Chugman's son. Took me a few minutes to make the connection, cause I didn't recognize him in his chef whites.

Sorry Jim! Any plans to head up this way anytime soon?

Thought you guys might be interested in this link.  I do more than cook on trains, I am also rebuilding this rail car called Silver View.  It is a Dome Observation Parlor Car from the CB&Q's Twin City Zephyr.  The lower level is being demolished and rebuilt with a new galley. Take a look at my website and be sure to look at the floor plan of what she will look like some day. 

Enjoy, Jim

https://tczsilverview.wordpress.com/

Hi Elliot,

I might be working the trains again this year as Pullman in Chicago has stopped leasing cars.  Don't know as of yet, but we are looking into other options for trips this coming year. Since Pullman handled all of our onboard services, I'll probably be back in the galley slinging hash. LOL!

Jim

Keep me posted Jim. The layout is looking very different from the last time you were here. Hopefully you'll be feeling good next time. Glad to see you are back on the job in your dad's basement. Nice to see him excited again and posting progress here. For that matter, it's good to see you posting here too!

TRRR- yes, let me know because I can send you the mag, no problem. I am doing some serious downsizing, decluttering.  The German sabotage mission was named after Franz Daniel P., who brought the first German refugees to America in 1683. Founded Germantown, Pa. now part of Philly.  There are  couple of books about him, one just out.