Do I REALLY need a Z-4000 -- or is it just an OGR "status symbol"?

I have 2 one for the test bench and one for the test layout. they have the amp meters on them and auto shutdown when a short is detected which helps to protect the expensive locos. I damaged a loco by turning up the power all the way after a repair and I roached the boards. For me they are a must have

Our club modular layout is 20x30. A couple of years ago I was playing around with the DCS RC w/ a Z1K transformer. I had zero problems running whatever I wanted. Guess it depends upon how big a layout you're planning to build.

My home layout is 14x39, dual mainlines. It has two 135W powerhouse power supplies, on CW80 for lights/switches, and a MRC Pure Power 270W transformer. FWIW, I just couldn't justify more.

If you're starting from scratch, a Z4K is fine. It sounds like you've got plenty of power already.

Gilly

The ZW-L is the Status Symbol, the Z-4000 is sooo 2000

The Z4k is an excellent transformer but for powering your rails I suggest a 180 watt fixed voltage[18vac]PowerHouse connected to your TIU, or two units if more than one railpower district.

Also the 180 watt PoHos have the fasted circuit breakers of any of our transformers. That coupled with the TVS inside your TIU gives your good protection against overcurrent[breakers] and voltage spikes[TVS].

Two PoHos are far less costly than a Z4k.

The Z-4000 is a very nice transformer, the ZW-L is very, very nice. I would gladly take either one. But if I were you I would try the Z1000's first and see what happens. If needed you could always get another power supply for your TIU and use your other Z1000 for more track or accessory power.  

Although the above transformers are nice, no need to purchase unless/until they are needed. Or unless you want the meters they have to monitor you power usage.  I have DCS and power my TIU with a Z500 from a MTH set and then use PH-180's for track power. Only using 2 channels so far. I got some analog meters on ebay for about $6 each and plan to add those someday to monitor power and amp usage.

Like Dewey said, if you need more power get a Lionel 6-22983 180-Watt PowerHouse.  They list for $99 and have almost twice the power as a 100 watt Z1000.  They also have better protection.  I use one for each channel of my TIU and they work great.  You can get <$10 ebay current meeters to monitor load .

Dan

I am very happy with my Z-4000 and, given the relatively modest size of my layout, I figure it will be the only transformer I'll ever need from this point on.  I particularly like the digital readouts, which can be read from some distance.

If you want a transformer with some power meters try the MRC 270 watt. 

I use it for my two track layout that I run only scale engines both steam and diesel. I have never had a problem with the amount of power that is needed. 

At half the price of a Z4000 and one third the price of a ZWL it is a no brainer. Look around you can get them much lower then msrp. 

I'm in the Lionel PH180 camp as well.  They have electronic breakers that are the best of any transformer I know of.  I confess I don't know for sure what the ZW-L has as circuit protection, but my Z-4000 has good breakers, but not nearly as good as the PH180.

Two $99 transformers give you virtually the same power as the $400 Z-4000.

I'm actually not that impressed with the circuit breakers on the Z1000 bricks, I've seen two different layouts where a short on the tracks takes out the 20A TIU fuse and doesn't pop the Z1000 breaker.  OTOH, I've had countless derailments powering my TIU with a pair of PH180 bricks, the bricks go first every time, I've never replaced the TIU fuses.

If you need variable power for any reason, then the Z-4000 makes a lot of sense, it's a fine transformer.

If you already have DCS, getting the remote receiver which plugs into the back allows you to remotely raise or lower the master voltage pre TIU. (In case your conventional, especially pre war streamliner, friends come over and high speed into a building or two as they derail...)

I really needed one...

Hello Terrence L.......

You might sell the 3 Z1000's and use the funds and some from your pocket to purchase the Z4000. I paid 380 for mine from Scott Mann of Sunset 3rd in 2012. It is a good long time investment in my book.

The woman who love the S.F. 5011,2678,2381,2003

Tiffany

If you think you'll need it, get it. I personally powered a 7x12 layout with 2 Z1Ks. They were powering two tracks with 3 trains per track and didn't have any trouble. I still use those two 10 year old Z1Ks. They aren't pretty - dusty, some paint splatter, etc but they work perfectly every time. Breakers trip lightening fast as well. 

YOu may just want to get everything set up and try the Z1Ks to see how they perform then decide on the 4000.

Thanks everyone for the great advice. Your knowledge and experience is most appreciated. 

Here's your chance if you want that Z-4000...

https://ogrforum.com/t...ansformer-never-used

Here you go.

https://ogrforum.com/t...never-used#lastReply

Or here "FS Santa Fe Passenger Train, Z4000's" shameless plug.

For the Christmas layout, I use a CW-80 and TMCC1.

For my main layout, in the box I have a ZW-C, with 4x 180W bricks.

At the club, we use 2x Z4Ks to power everything.  Personally, I am not an MTH fan...

Thanks,

- Mario

https://ogrforum.com/t...ansformer-never-used

Yep... I saw that Z4000 for sale ($325 is the best price I've ever seen for one of those beasts in new condition). 

I'm am going to go with the PowerHouse 180 option. My train room layout is only gonna be 17 feet wide by 10 feet deep (plus a yard that will break off from the two mains and run into an 8-foot long walk in closet).

The PH 180 option should be enough to electrify the tracks of my relatively small double main line layout (and I like the info about it's amazing built in circuit breakers). I will use the Z1000s to power my accessories. If I ever feel the need for more power, I could always pick up a Z4000 later on.

Thanks again for all of the excellent advice. 

Hi, I purchased a Z-4000 in May 1998.  The transformer has worked reliably ever since.  It's a quiet, powerful transformer.  My layout is only 8'x11' w/two loops, a passing loop, and a several dead-end yard tracks; consequently, I don't think that my railroad will ever lack for power.

I didn't think of purchasing Z-4000 as a status symbol; instead, I wanted a transformer capable of running conventional Lionel trains, e.g., a 1952 Super Speedliner set, i.e., a 2343 SF with two horizontal motors pulling a four-car aluminum set with with power-consuming incandescent lights.  

No matter what I operate, the Z-4000 stays cool. If a derailment occurs, the circuit breaker opens immediately.  If you own PS-1 locomotives, as I once did, you'll find the Z-4000 a convenient way to program PS-1 engines.  The Z-4000 works well with my DCS system; although, I can't imagine why it wouldn't.

I use a Z-750 brick to power my TIU because I like being able to operate the TIU independently of the Z-4000.  I use my childhood ZW (1965 version) to operate my accessories.

Finally, I think that the Z-4000 is good looking.

I am still using my Lionel ZW's 275W transformers for the main lines. I have two and I am running 5 sets of TMCC trains. The transformers are the ones I had back in the 50's as a kid and they still work great. I did add 4 quick trip breakers just in case!

and for the accessories I have a bunch of older Lionel transformers running the buildings and street lights.

 I started out using a Z1000 with my TIU and Legacy base here on my short bench 'layout'. Much to my surprise I began losing the fuses in our TIU.  This never happened in 3 years of operation on our large layout with a single Z4000 and the same TIU. As good as the Z1000 is for economical power, it turned out to be the culprit in my situation.

There was an excellent thread awhile back on different transformers and I discovered what Gunrunner John mentioned above - that the circuit breaker in the Z1000 was woefully inadequate in protecting the TIU and untimely our locomotives when certain shorts developed. I went through 3 or 4 fuses and eventually a blown PS2 board in a Premiere SD60 before discovering this.

I've since replaced the brick with a Lionel 180 and will eventually add several more for the other TIU channels as needed.

I bought my Z4000 back when I was still running PS1 engines.  Most other newer transformers were chopped sine transformers, and the ones I tried all resulted in unwanted electrical noise in my PS1 engines I believe as a result of the chopped wave. At the time the Z4000 was one of the few modern transformers that generated smooth sine output, which seemed to result in much better sound on those old sound boards. I don't run PS1 anymore, and I believe newer engines are designed for chopped sine, so if I needed to change now I would likely go the PH180 route.

Great choice on the PH180 bricks, I have one per channel through the TIU and all the power i could ever wan, all four is still well below the lowest Z4000.

I went with two PW Lionel ZWs to power accessory, switches, lighting, etc., and they look cool on the layout. The highest status model rail roader I know was Gomez Adams, and these were good enough for him.

I started with a ZW nice, went to a Z4000 lost my grip on it dropped it to the floor fresh out of the box, my heart went with it. It has been a great performer, then I bought the ZWL the Z4k is used on my test track and for accessories.

Another vote for the PH-180, I was using the power supply (not the control unit) from my Z750 but the output is 21vac, Lionel and others that use TMCC say not to use more than 18vac or you may damage the electronics.  All my engines (MTH, Lionel, 3rd Rail, Atlas, Weaver, Williams) run fine using the PH-180 and DCS.

Ive run as many as three trains simultaneously with just one 80 watt CW80. 

So yeah, IMO, those z4000, ZW-C, and ZW-L transformers are all over rated status symbols. 

FYI, the Lionel PowerHouse 180 is a pure sine wave transformer, even more pure than the electronically generated sine wave of the Z4000.   It's just a fixed transformer with a fancy circuit breaker.

I thought that electricity is electricity, and that's that!

What is all this "sine wave" talk and how does it affect the operation of our OGR trains?

It's odd, but I have never considered owning a Z-4000 as being a "status symbol". Mine is used to run a mostly MTH PS2 fleet and thus far have been very satisfied with the results.  For me, functionality YES, status symbol NO. 

Some electronics has issues with the chopped sine wave that triac control of transformer power produces.  Specifically the early PS/1 locomotives and some PS/2 locomotives.  For reasons I've never fully understood, the Lionel CW-80 seems to be a particularly troublesome transformer for some of these products.

Here's a pure sine wave output and the chopped wave output.  The amount of the waveform that is left for the chopped waveform is dependent on the transformer output power setting.

Pure Sine Wave

Your wall outlet provides a pure sine wave.  For AC voltages, that means the voltages alternates smoothly from 120V+ to 120V - at 60 times per second.

A transformer like the 180W Powerhouse converts pure to pure.

An MTH Z1000 brick is a pure sine wave transformer but then in the Z-1000 controller, it is electronically adjusted with a circuit that is like a pure sine wave but a bit more choppy, not so smooth.

A CW80 and Z-1000 both are both NOT pure sine wave controllers.

MTH DCS locos get along with the almost pure output of a Z-1000, but often have issues with a CW80.

Hope that helps!

Ed

edit: GRJ types faster than I do!

No Ed, I just typed less.

I thought the recently catalogued Lionel Big Boy was the OGR status symbol?  How

many Big Boys in what road numbers did the U.P. once own?  Like the old Marx

slogan, "Do you have all of them?"

FYI, the Lionel PowerHouse 180 is a pure sine wave transformer, even more pure than the electronically generated sine wave of the Z4000.   It's just a fixed transformer with a fancy circuit breaker.

GRJ, thanks - that's actually quite interesting.

Also interesting, though, is the Z1000 being pure sine. Prior to buying the Z4000, I only used the Z500 and 750, and I'm pretty sure they were both chopped.

I also had one of the '90s' ZWs, with the 135W bricks, and I was pretty sure that was chopped, too. Maybe the bricks were generating a pure sine wave, but once the signal passed through the controller there was the same nasty line noise affecting those PS1 sound boards.

Glad those days are over.

I'll try not to up this thread any further with a discussion on sine waves, since that is not what was intended, but I am curious as to why Lionel touts chopped sine as the optimal power source for their modern stuff. It's in one of their videos. I didn't quite 'get' the theory.

Any of the Z Bricks generate a pure sine wave, adding the Z controller makes them into chopped wave outputs.

You're correct, the ZW-C chops the waveform just like most of the other electronic controls.  The bricks again, were pure sine wave outputs.

One attribute of a chopped sine wave output is, at a given power setting, the peak amplitude of the waveform is greater than the same power setting with a pure sine wave output.  From what I could gather from that video, the peaks were actually allowing the resistors to get hotter than the same RMS value with a pure sine wave.  I'm not entirely sure how that works for the same RMS value of power.

The RMS value of an alternating current is also sometimes called its heating value,  it is a voltage which is equivalent to the direct current value that would be required to get the same heating effect.  For example, if we applied 18V AC RMS to a resistive heating element it would heat up by exactly the same amount as if we had applied 18V DC.  I think for whatever reason the chopped waveform heats it to that value a bit quicker, but I haven't really looked all that closely at the operation.

Do I REALLY need a Z-4000 -- or is it just an OGR "status symbol"?

You really got to ask yourself just one question.

"is it the most powerful transformer you'll need or do you want to mess around"

I run PH180 bricks also. I have switched my G scale to Bridgewerks DC packs. The one is 25amps. The trains run better, smoother and cooler at the higher voltage (set at 24 volts at the rails) and spare amps available.

 I could have bought more bricks for outside. I believe that the Z4000 would do just as well as the big DC packs.

 So I will get one soon and report back. I believe that AC travels better!

I think for the OGR status symbol, as far as transformers go, should be the following diagram.  At least it meets all my requirements:

a.  Lots of power (I'm sure I'll hear from those who disagree with >10A)

b.  Supports conventional operation (including PS1 functions)

c.  Exceedingly fast circuit protection

d.  Does not interfere with Legacy or DCS signals

e.  Remote indication of power on/off (through PSX)

f.  Remote indication (light & buzzard) and reset of circuit faults (through PSX)

g.  Remote track power on/off (through TPC)

BOLD PRINT ADDED

I think you hit the nail on the head, "it fits all my requirements".