Typically, I attend the York meet on Thursdays, but was unable to this month and went on Saturday. I think the Eastern Division leadership needs to crack down on merchants in the Orange & Purple halls who start packing up their stuff as early as 1pm, when I PAID to attend a meet that runs until 3pm! (I didn't visit any other halls, so don't know the situations there.) Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm? One of the higher echelon MTH dealers asked me if I was "looking for anything specific" as she was packing up their locos at about 1:30. I could have offered a smart retort like "well, I may not see it since 75% of your products are already packed up," but I just said, "no thanks just seeing whats available." Given that I often make purchase decisions on the spot based on something that catches my eye, it could have been her loss. She could have missed out on a $750+sale, but neither of us will ever know, will we? Multiply that by all the other merchants I saw who were looking forward to bolting for the door by 1pm!
No longer working for a merchant, I can comment from both sides.
As a paying member, I'd be angry if I attended on Saturday, and only saw merchants packing up, and didn't get to view the goods. I go to York looking for specific items. It a lot easier to see the item than to read the boxes.
As a merchant, Saturday attendance is low. And we always started packing up at a relaxed pace, getting a head start because at VInce's we had allot to pack. Add to that the hall guards giving merchants the bums rush to pack up, and get out so they could go home.
The eastern Divisions n does need to get a handle on it, an d while merchants are guilty of packing early, the hall guards contribute to it, too.
Although it's not fair for those who can only attend on Saturday, I can understand why people do this. Considering how slow Saturday is compared to Thursday and Friday and when there is hardly anyone in the halls, it doesn't make much sense to have a table or booth set up for a few hours when they could get a head start on the long ride home. But the benefit for me that day is the bargains. Some of my best purchases at York were on Saturdays, you just gotta wear those running shoes.
I don't think I have ever been to a show or meet as a dealer or consumer where there weren't vendors packing up early. It doesn't matter whether it is a one day event or three day event, there will always be early packers. Eastern Division is far from the only group with this issue.
Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby. A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers. In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this. The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show.
Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"??? Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!! So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce. If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show. Pretty simple solution to simple problem.
Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby. A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers. In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this. The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show.
Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"??? Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!! So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce. If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show. Pretty simple solution to simple problem.
Supposedly the Eastern Division has this policy, but they obviously do not enforce it.
They don't enforce the early departure rule because they cannot. A sanctioned table holder or dealer may not return if they are assessed any sort of penalty. The show is already shrinking.
When I was involved in promoting shows, we did drop the admission fee towards the end of the show.
There is one show in my area where they enforce the no early packing rule. The show is always sold out, and I suspect there are people who are not able to get tables. The last hour of the show is DEAD. I wish they'd end the show an hour earlier.
As to why the show is shrinking:
I personally know of several member table holders who found the overhead of having to display for three days to be too much. Most of them also quit the TCA. I also know of two businesses that stopped attending due to the high overhead. These businesses do "mail order" and do just as well without attending. The owner of one is still a TCA member, the other dropped out.
From my 35 years of going to large, organized, flea markets, like Renningers in PA: on the 3-day Kutztown show: Thurs. early admit at 1pm, premium $15. ticket price. Fri. all day $10. and Sat. $5.
At Renningers Adamstown Sundays flea market, no charge. Selling "opens" 5 am (bring a flashlight). Some dealers are packed up at 8 am because they know the serious buyers have already left. Most of the others have gone by noon.
I'm not saying this should apply to York, it's just another perspective.
When I have a table at York I always kept my single table stocked. I always sold something at the very last. Its a big show and takes a long time to walk the member halls.
When I have a table at York I always kept my single table stocked. I always sold something at the very last. Its a big show and takes a long time to walk the member halls.
When I sold at York as a member table holder, 90 plus percent of my sales were in the first couple of hours of the show opening. Then just dribs and drabs. Should I have stayed home? ...... I think the folks that bought from me in the first few hours were very happy.
The "Dealers" wanted the meet open to the public, they got it. Now the don't stay all day on the day the public is most likely to attend. Great way to "Grow the Hobby"
When I used to have a booth in Orange, I'd keep my eyes on the Lionel booth. When Lionel started packing up, I started packing up. My thinking was, if a hall captain approached and advised me of my obligation to stay open, I was prepared to suggest that we walk arm-in-arm over to the Lionel booth and advise them of same.
As to the question:
Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm?
Well, yes, it's possible they do. I see from your profile that you live < 2 hours away from York. You're lucky. You might see things differently if you lived 7 hours away as I do. Back in the day when closing time was 2pm, leaving closer to noon meant I could arrive home in time say good night to my children on Saturday night and have dinner with my wife. Waiting the extra two hours meant getting home late after having dinner at McDonald's on the road.
My point is that there are as many different situations as there are attendees at York. Vendors don't leave early because they're impatient or indifferent. They leave early because no one has approached them for hours, they have a long journey home, or both.
If the cash register was still ringing, it's almost guaranteed vendors would stay open for the duration.
They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.
They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.
This is why I usually can't make the show at all. Spring and fall are "outage season" in the power plant business. typically I am working 6 days a week starting at 6 am and working until at least 5, sometimes later, during the weeks of the show. I keep trying to get there.
They don't enforce the early departure rule because they cannot. A sanctioned table holder or dealer may not return if they are assessed any sort of penalty. The show is already shrinking.
Interesting observation that if they enforce their rule of leaving early vendors won't return. Why have a rule if you don't enforce it, and how about those cited for a different rules infraction, what do they think?
When I was involved in promoting shows, we did drop the admission fee towards the end of the show.
There is one show in my area where they enforce the no early packing rule. The show is always sold out, and I suspect there are people who are not able to get tables. The last hour of the show is DEAD. I wish they'd end the show an hour earlier.
I wonder if they did that would the vendors still be packing up an hour early? Clearly most sales are made early because if you pass something by it may not be there when you return. Are late sales mostly those thinking and looking to get a low price rather than the seller having to haul it back with them?
As to why the show is shrinking:
I personally know of several member table holders who found the overhead of having to display for three days to be too much. Most of them also quit the TCA. I also know of two businesses that stopped attending due to the high overhead. These businesses do "mail order" and do just as well without attending. The owner of one is still a TCA member, the other dropped out.
Serenska posted:
When I used to have a booth in Orange, I'd keep my eyes on the Lionel booth. When Lionel started packing up, I started packing up. My thinking was, if a hall captain approached and advised me of my obligation to stay open, I was prepared to suggest that we walk arm-in-arm over to the Lionel booth and advise them of same.
As to the question:
Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm?
Well, yes, it's possible they do. I see from your profile that you live < 2 hours away from York. You're lucky. You might see things differently if you lived 7 hours away as I do. Back in the day when closing time was 2pm, leaving closer to noon meant I could arrive home in time say good night to my children on Saturday night and have dinner with my wife. Waiting the extra two hours meant getting home late after having dinner at McDonald's on the road.
Understand your situation completely, it is nice to return home in time for a relaxing evening followed by a full next day, though these looking at a 12 or more hour drive home still won't make it back in time for dinner or possibly breakfast either. What do you think the vendors would do if they moved the show to Indy in April and back to PA in Oct. Would all the eastern sellers/buyers still come if they had to drive far?
My point is that there are as many different situations as there are attendees at York. Vendors don't leave early because they're impatient or indifferent. They leave early because no one has approached them for hours, they have a long journey home, or both.
If the cash register was still ringing, it's almost guaranteed vendors would stay open for the duration.
Correct me if I am wrong here. I have heard that as soon as the meet is closed the Eastern Division pushes the dealers hard to get them packed up and out of the door fast. If that is a fact then it only makes sense to pack up early.
They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.
This is getting more testy than I anticipated, so this will be my last reply.
Your comments above seem to be from the perspective of an employee. From that perspective, I agree. As an employee hired to do a job, you stay on the job and you do your job. Period. No argument.
From the perspective of a business owner, however, there is no obligation to keep a business open when no sales are being made. In fact, the obligation is the opposite. As a prudent steward of a business, the owner's obligation is to deploy the business' resources where they will generate the greatest return. If zero customers are interested in the business' services or products at a given location, the business should close at that location.
HI RADIORON, Here's a quirky little tidbit to add to the conversation (perhaps not worth anything to the conversation, but just as a curious point...)
On several occasions, I Sold Out by very early on Saturday. In fact, on one occasion, I nearly sold out on Friday, and found myself wondering what my obligation might have been to stay until closing on Saturday. Had that actually occurred, I had planned on asking Debbie what she felt I should do. As it turned out, many of the customers who nearly wiped me out on Friday wanted to pick up their purchases, all boxed-up and ready for travel, on Saturday, so I had to wait for them nearly all that morning. By noon, my booth was empty of product, so I picked up my table covers, signage, chairs, and empty cases, and left the building.
There's nothing new here. I've sold at countless railroad and military-related shows over the years and traditionally, the first vendor to pack up always starts the herd a' moving toward the door.
I have done many 2-day shows over the years and the one thing you can almost always count on is you'll do very little business toward the end of a show. The people who know shows know that the 'cool' stuff vanished in the first few hours of the first day (and in many cases, before the show even started, before the public comes in*). Most sellers don't give "I don't wanna take this home" discounts at the end of the show, though it can sometimes happen. The most annoying people you see at a show are the ones who keep coming by your table every couple hours, hoping for a last-minute deal. When they come by and see the item has been packed up (and they know you're not going to give a deal now that you have to fish it out), they go bonkers. One guy kept coming by a $1.00 item (a RR china saucer), demanding I sell for 50 cents, countless times during the 2-day show (leaping toward the table anytime he saw someone else look at it, as it he was going to stop them). At the end of the show, he smugly came up and said, "I bet you'll sell it for fifty cents now." I smashed it on the floor and looked up and said, "Uh, no." The look on his face was priceless.
In other words, I never bother going to the final day of any show except maybe as it opens. I'd never waste my time otherwise.
RadioRon posted:
She could have missed out on a $750+sale
She also could have missed out on sitting around until the end of the show, selling nothing. I'm guessing that from a lot of experience, she decided to cut her losses instead of hanging around to the last moment for a sale that likely wasn't coming.
Does it stink for people who paid to come in at the end of the show? Yes, no question. It is unusual? Nope, not in the least.
*At one show around 2006 or so, I was looking to get rid of my G scale stuff. I brought in 5 hand trucks of rolling stock, locomotives, track and structures. The other vendors made good offers and descended upon my table like sharks. The show started at 10 and an hour before that, I only had a DVD and one book. That was for two tables that were stacked 3-4 feet high half on hour before. So as the first paying customers walked through the door, I was walking out, thanking the show people for their time. They almost had a stroke. "You're leaving?" they asked. I pointed to the two items I had and said that's all I had left. I told the two guys on each side of my tables to use the space, so there was no empty tables as the public came in...
I wonder if they did that would the vendors still be packing up an hour early? Clearly most sales are made early because if you pass something by it may not be there when you return. Are late sales mostly those thinking and looking to get a low price rather than the seller having to haul it back with them?
Hard to say. If one assumes that the people who came between 2 and 3 would come at the same time, then I think the vendors would be happy to stay. If the customers came an hour earlier (unlikely), then the last hour would still be dead. (Remember, this show enforces their no early packup rule).
In any case, sellers don't pack up early at an active show without good reason.
At this particular show, I don't think the late arrivals are bargain hunters. They come when their schedule permits.
Interesting observation that if they enforce their rule of leaving early vendors won't return. Why have a rule if you don't enforce it, and how about those cited for a different rules infraction, what do they think?
Not quite what I meant. Enforcement would be either denying the offender a table or charging them higher fees for their tables the next time. Denying tables worked when there was a waiting list.
We argued about imposing this rule at the show I was involved in promoting. Happily we decided against it.
Should the Eastern Division drop the rule? Maybe. Or they could reduce the number of tables and start enforcing it.
We have three well advertised train shows in the Calumet Region (Chicago). The 11 times per year show at the DuPage County Fair Grounds(Wheaton), the LCCA/TCA two day show after Thanksgiving in Crown Point, Indiana and The March Meet. At DuPage, many collectors and individuals on this forum pay a premium for the two hour early admission. I've sold brass items only in those two early admission hours. If I clear my table, there is no sense hanging around so I ask the vendors on each side if they would like to use the empty table. Each time they spread out what they have or they add merchandise from boxes under their tables. At Crown Point set up is an option on Friday afternoon. Generally the collectors are waiting in line for 9AM opening on Saturday. Some vendors set up Saturday morning and leave Saturday afternoon. Others set up Friday and stay until closing at 3PM on Sunday. Their table fee is the same whether they set up for one day or two days. Most people have a life outside of model trains - family and children's activities rightfully take precedence over selling a few toys. At most shows, it is very easy for vendors to get a feel of the crowd. But it is also very easy to mis-read what could happen, no one can accurately forecast what will happen (sell) in the last two hours of a show. Several years ago, my day at DuPage was very slow - until we started packing about thirty minutes prior to closing time. One man bought several boxes (fresh fruit shipping boxes) of O-27 track along with several pieces of rolling stock. Another family asked if we had any upscale highway vehicles and bought all we had at $50 per. They were not train collectors but heard the show may have some highway vehicles.
The March Meet is an event unto its own. Modelers from Maine to Idaho walk the aisles looking for what they need. When they find it, they buy it. Just like I've heard from people talking about York, if you pass it by it may not be on the table when you return.
Putting it in simple terms, there is no way to forecast a sale and if a vendor wants to skip a day or leave early, that is his right. I also understand that a person paying full admission is disappointed when he/she expects full rows of items and 60% are empty. Their first impression may be 'Boy, this is a waste of money and time. I won't be back next year'.
Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby. A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers. In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this. The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show.
Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"??? Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!! So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce. If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show. Pretty simple solution to simple problem.
I agree totally!! Some table holders just have the attitude of "lets get this over with". On the few occasions I go to a small show to sell some extra pieces I no longer want. I LOVE to stay and have my table open all the time. I gues I just love the hobby and all it encounters. Those who have no legitimate reason to leave and just want to et out early, just don't have the love of the hobby as others. They are there to make money only. Just see it as a business even though they may not have an actual storefront. I have encountered them through the years. One guy I asked what he wanted for a piece responded" are you inerested, or just asking. I said "never mind" and went on my way hahaha. There are all kinds of people. They will not stop me from having fun hahahaha
Some of us make the effort to be one of the first in the door on Thursday for a reason. No matter what hall I've started in, I've seen some covered up tables at the start. I've been told "Oh they're shopping, since they are not allowed to buy stuff before the doors open". But this excuse does not hold water on day 2 or 3.
Its the same with my antique garden tractor hobby. One very large swap meet here in Indiana starts mid week, Thursday and Friday are the best days with many dealers pulling out late Friday night or by noon Saturday. This is for the spring and fall swap meets. The summer show, which combines both show area and swap areas is utterly humongous! But once again, by mid day Saturday most are headed home with many leaving Friday night after the tractor pulls. Folks plan their summer vacation around this event and many have to be back at work on Monday morning, so the weekend is thier travel and recovery/put all the stuff away in the barn time. So its not just train shows that folks pack up sooner than the physical end of the show itself. The ones left are pretty much the locals that have only an hour or two drive at the most. For the buyers that stick it out to the bitter end, some of the best deals can be had, as guys might not want to take it home. Its been discussed about making a rule to keep more people there. But most felt that it would only create more issues that it solves. The less rules we have to deal with, the easier it is. Anything that might keep dealers away, is something to be avoided at all costs at this time in the hobby, no matter what the hobby is. If you run off the dealers, then you will loose some of your buying crowd and it will snowball itself. I try to keep my vacation days or paid absence days at work for these type of events that I need to take a day off work to enjoy. I only get so many, so I make them count for the best shows and the best day to attend to get the maximum benefit and selection of goodies. Mike the Aspie
Some of us make the effort to be one of the first in the door on Thursday for a reason. No matter what hall I've started in, I've seen some covered up tables at the start. I've been told "Oh they're shopping, since they are not allowed to buy stuff before the doors open". But this excuse does not hold water on day 2 or 3.
When you're a seller, you're often a buyer, too. In fact, I knew of a large military collectible show that had dozens of people who'd buy sales tables just to get into the show early with nothing to sell. The show clamped down on that, so people later alternated between five or six items with obscene prices with a pal just keep an eye out or just covering over the table with a sheet. One guy I knew would have the table covered the entire show and would often go to other shows/stores in the area, being miles away while people would lift the corner of the sheet up and think, "I'd like that, where's the table guy?"
I've come back to my sales tables many times to see several people standing there waiting for me to come back, wanting to buy something (or usually, just to ask how good a deal they can get).
I have encountered them through the years. One guy I asked what he wanted for a piece responded" are you inerested, or just asking. I said "never mind" and went on my way hahaha.
When you're a seller, you get to see the other side of this all the time. So many 'tire kicker' types you can clearly tell have no interest in actually buying. I'd bet this guy might have dealt with a bunch of them over the weekend, especially for a piece that was either very valuable or he simply needed a lot of coin for. You have no idea how often people will point to something anyone should know would cost some coin and seriously say, "I'll give you a dollar for that," and mean it and will be upset if you tell them it's actually, say, 500 bucks or so. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen that happen. I'll never forget the one guy at a show years ago, pointing at a boxed girl's Lionel set (a real one, with a decent original box) and made an offer for ten bucks and he was serious about it. The seller almost choked on his coffee and told him what it was really worth. The would-be bidder accused the seller of highway robbery and walked off.
Folks, this is what you deal with as a seller at shows. Don't forget that when you're a buyer.
Also, don't forget a seller can refuse to sell to you or make you pay more than what anyone else would. I've heard it called a "---hole tax", meaning someone's irritating you, so they have to pay more for what you're enduring. I've done it myself a couple of times. Once, I was wearing my NASA jacket and the jerk kept making off-color jokes about the shuttle crews that died in the two losses of orbiters in 1986 and 2003. I told him his prices were twice what everyone else is charged, and he quickly realized I was serious, and paid just that as I had some stuff he badly wanted.
I also started refusing to sell anything to one dealer who was notorious for buying stuff from other vendors, putting it on his sales table, getting more, then coming by to gloat, as well as standing at your table telling potential sellers that you were asking too much for everything...
As for telling people they can't come back next year for leaving early, that won't work for long. I know of a gun show that started doing that, but the majority of the dealers left an hour before the end. So, the show said they couldn't come back until the 2nd show afterward. Guess what happened? They blocked most of their dealers! Hardly anyone came back to sell at the next show and the organizers lost their shirts as people would walk in, see no sellers, then walk right back out. And those dealers never came back, either. Last I heard, one of the main guys for those shows is a greeter at Wal mart...
They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.
This is getting more testy than I anticipated, so this will be my last reply.
Your comments above seem to be from the perspective of an employee. From that perspective, I agree. As an employee hired to do a job, you stay on the job and you do your job. Period. No argument.
From the perspective of a business owner, however, there is no obligation to keep a business open when no sales are being made. In fact, the obligation is the opposite. As a prudent steward of a business, the owner's obligation is to deploy the business' resources where they will generate the greatest return. If zero customers are interested in the business' services or products at a given location, the business should close at that location.
I look forward to your and others' replies.
Steven J. Serenska
Steve.... the show is open until 3pm on Saturday. That means you should stay until 3 because many Saturday attendees can only attend on Saturday & need the FULL show time (which they are DUE) to do some running back & forth between halls. Your business made the decision to display at a show that runs until 3pm on Saturday. You should commit to meeting the show hours. If you close up at 1:30 or 2p... you are denying me the possibility of doing business with you and forfeiting any sales that may have occurred after you skadoodled
She also could have missed out on sitting around until the end of the show, selling nothing. I'm guessing that from a lot of experience, she decided to cut her losses instead of hanging around to the last moment for a sale that likely wasn't coming.
Does it stink for people who paid to come in at the end of the show? Yes, no question. It is unusual? Nope, not in the least.
*At one show around 2006 or so, I was looking to get rid of my G scale stuff. I brought in 5 hand trucks of rolling stock, locomotives, track and structures. The other vendors made good offers and descended upon my table like sharks. The show started at 10 and an hour before that, I only had a DVD and one book. That was for two tables that were stacked 3-4 feet high half on hour before. So as the first paying customers walked through the door, I was walking out, thanking the show people for their time. They almost had a stroke. "You're leaving?" they asked. I pointed to the two items I had and said that's all I had left. I told the two guys on each side of my tables to use the space, so there was no empty tables as the public came in...
I arrived Saturday when the doors opened, not at 2p. Your story about your 2006 show sell out experience is of interest, but of no real relation to what I am talking about her.
One other minor point: Sometimes I find something I want to buy, but no vendor in sight. I know you need to use the restrooms, or get lunch, or just take a walk...but it would be nice if you had some arrangement with a seller next to you (you could say that the buyer had to have cash for the exact price). Last Fall I came back to a table 3 times in the span of 45 minutes to buy a book I really wanted. It was the history of trains going from NY to Florida (since I was going to do just that in a few months). Got home and ordered it from Amazon, but at $10. more than the York price.
I don' care about vendors packing up early on Saturdays, these people have been there 3 days and some all week if set up at bandit meets also, the ones that make me mad are when show opens Thursday or Friday and 1-2 hours in, their tables are still covered. This year was bad for that
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
OGR Forum Supporting Membership
Help support this forum with an OGR Forum Supporting Membership. You will be able to watch the videos in the INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO FORUM! A one-year OGR Forum Supporting Membership is only $12 per year, so sign up now!
OR
Access the ALL the OGR VIDEO FORUMS ANDover 300 back issues of OGR with a DIGITAL SUBSCRIPTION!
