Early Lionel whistles.

The very first whistle units long units with straight whistle chambers. Banana whistles. The earlier unit has a different sound from the later. 1935 and early '36. Lionel redesigned the whistle to the more familiar box shape to fit in smaller 027 gauge tenders. The later unit can replace the earlier unit.

The WS-75, 80, and 85, are all the same but designed for different violtages (maybe).  They came into use about 1935 and ran until 1948. They were replaced with the plastic whistles. There were changes over the years. The earlier versions held the sound box cover on with screws, instead of drive pins, and are much easier to work on.  Some early versions used a self aligning bearing that works well, but is no longer available. Also several different impeller designs were used. This is the box shaped whistle that Chuck refers to above. 

The “Banana” whistle, referred to above, was a WS-36/37 designation.  There is a good source of information located on Olsen’s Library.  The website is presently working, so I suggest taking a look.  Just search in the Prewar section, & likewise, under the Whistle section.  It has a wealth of info, with diagrams of all the whistles produced by Lionel.  It will take some digging, to get to the section you need, but is well worth the research.  I’m on an iPad, right now, so I can’t give the steps to get to the requested info.  Good luck.

The Olsen Library has Postwar & Prewar sections, and an alternative is to purchase their CD’s, depending on the era of Post/Pre war.

Thanks Doc, I found all I need.  It's under the link "Lionel Prewar Whistles" at library search level 1.  Amazing detail, thinking of buying their CD.

In regard to Olsen's CD's.  I see they have three of them.  Can someone tell me what is on them.  I see

CD-4-1.  I'm guessing that's the parts list, what else ?

CD-PRE, obviously something I want

CD-POST, does that have much that I can't get from the Greenberg's manual ?

I’m not sure what is on the CD4-1, the CD-POST is basically the same as the Aurotech/Kline book, & Greenberg’s Book, covering only Postwar.  The CD-PRE is the Lionel Prewar only.  Considering how often Olsen’s crashes, I bit the bullet and bought the Prewar CD, after getting heavily involved in the Prewar aspect.  I considered the purchase as well worth the price.

MLAUGHLINNYC,  I went onto Olsen’s, and checked each CD, for content.  If you already own a Postwar Repair Manual, The CD-PRE would be a compliment for Prewar @ $35+.  For anyone that doesn’t have Postwar coverage, the CD4-1 is the better buy, @ $50+, which is basically a complete reprint of their Library, covering Pre/Postwar Lionel, Marx, some AF, & Dorfan, which is what you see when entering their Library.

The CD-POST=$35; CD-PRE=$35; CD4.1=$50+, so the $50 value is best, if both Pre/Postwar are needed.

More on the banana whistle.  The fellow who had it sent to me for repair - on the 392T frame.  An interesting device with a few problems.  He wants it to be working with as little as possible differnece from original appearance.  Here are a few photos, observations and questions.

Note the brush holder held on by pins - comapre with screws used in later models.  For comparison here it is next to a Flying Yankee whistle.  Note that from this we see two sizes of banana whixtle chambers.  It will be interesting to hear the diffenence in tone.  I'd expect the Yankee to be a tenor and the big guy to be the bass 

It was said by the owner to barely turn and then jam.  So first step of course was to change color of brushes and commmutator from black to copper.  

Then applying ower with the mechanism held together with two pins and my fingers, motor turns and then jams.  A little looking and thinking and I realize the problem is the brush holder isn't keeping the armature shaft straight because the pins aren't tight.  Looks like I need to drill and tap for screws.

Any comments from opne who has had this problem before ?

I'm thinking maybe Lionel began with pins and then when they realized they wouldn't hold after maintenance change to screws.  Is the pinned brush holder an uncommon variatrion found only in the earliest whistles ?

Looking at this photo, you can see that it looks like the backplate was once removed and then replaced using something that looks like glue, probably to make it air tight.

Then there is the mounting.  The whistle wiggled on the tender - very loose.  Turns out the reason was the mounting pad.  Looks like Lionel mounted the whistle to the bracket with a spacer pad to damp sound transmission to the tender chassis.  The spacer is now a flaking hard black material that migth at one time have been rubber, or something else.  With what do I replace it ?  Need to get something in there to keep it still when mounted.  Can't see a non-destructive way to separate the parts and insert a new pad.  Thinking of shoving in some thin wood to stabilize it.

After seeing that, I looked at the Flying Yankee and see the same problem, but so much as to make it very loose.

Looking forward to comments on this one.

dense foam like used to seal around outside dryer vents: you can cut and resistant to deterioration. To disassemble yo will need to drill and tap the posts and use a washer with screw to hold plate.Use a tread lock to seal and prevent movement. I try not to enter air chamber but not a huge issue if you do just use proper length screws so AS NOT TO AFFECT AIR FLOW, You can also tap the hole where the push pins were if you like. Biggest problem is that these can suffer from zinc pest and if present casting is worthless. Also some impellers were delicate castings as well (earlier ones) and then they went to sheet metal impellers. I have pics of all there and can post if you want

Also I scanned the image of the gasket and use a CNC cutter to cut new ones out of thin gasket material

As far as the loose fitting whistle and mounting bracket, some JB Weld works great. The hardened rubber material is shot, and trying to remove the bracket from the whistle is sure to result in broken metal trying to replace the rubber pad. Pins to hold the brushplate didn't hold, already explained by Mlaughl. You can use a #2 x 1/4" self tap screw to replace the pins with less risk of breaking the mounting post than trying to tap.

I find self tap screws are more stressful on metal than a good set of taps and proper drill size. Regardless if metal is that fragile then no use to do anything sound metal will let you work with it. 

Thanks for all the suggestions.  Fortunately the casting metal is quite solid and I see no signs of ZP infestation 

I think I'll try a self tapping screw in one post first.  One problem with tapping is that a bottoming tap is something I don't have, and I don't want to have to make a hole deep enough for a regular tap.

I have regular taps but need bottoming taps for 4-40 and 6-32.  Anyone know where I can get just those two taps without having to spend $50 or more for a whole set.

McMasters-Carr supply company sells these $8 to $10 each for bottommost tap and screws of many sizes including fillister head screws

The glue looks like 3m super weatherstrip adheasive. It will take a good solvent and elbow grease to remove if it is. They make a remover product, but it will remove some paints, so keep it away from the winding's wires.  I'd try something more common along the lines of naptha, xzylene, or acetone first as I'd bet they are a little stronger.

Continuing my banana whistle adventure.

I began last night with the fix to the jammed armature.  I bought a couple of taps, drilled out the three holes 3/32 and tapped 4-40.  Fortunately only one of the three posts broke and I put it back together with epoxy.

Thanks to Jagrick for leading me to McMaster Carr.  It's an old line hardware supply firm that shipped my order on credit and I had the taps in a few days.  A really old fashioned business - how many remember the standard invoice terms of 2% 10 days, net 30 ?

Here's a photo of the result - armature now spins with a loud rattle - not perfect, but at least not jamming.

Talked with Dr. Tinker about pin vs. screw mounting.  His take is that Lionel was doing both in 1935-36 and a 392 might have had either of them.

So the motor is running but no whistle sound.  Just a faint ghost of whistle tone as the motor starts.  Next step take the back off - you can see the four screws holding it.  Pried the back off losening the glue with my King Kut.  Only one cracked corener - you can see the one in the upper left is cracked and held only by the glue on the cardboard.

Now that I have the back off, the impeller and armature drop right out.  So I didn't really need to take off the brush plate to service the brushes and commutator.  Brushes come right out with tweezers.

Note that the impeller is plastic.  Must have been a repair job, as is indicated by the glue holding things together.  Next I hold the whistle up to my mouth and blow .,  That produces a good steam whistle tone.  

With no chamber obstruction, maybe it's the impeller and now I see what should have been obvious to me at the start of this.  The daimeter oft he impeller blades is 1 3/8 and that of the chamber is 1 3/4, a gap of 3/16 in the chamber - and that is why the impeller isn't generating the air pressure to blow the whistle.  Just to check, I take apart a more recent whistle and find the chamber diameter is 1 7/16.  It looks like the fellow who tried that repair must have not had a working whistle.

Does anyone have an old impeller and can check the diameter ?  Is it possible to find one, or should I tell may repair customer that if he wants a working whistle he'll have to give up on the old style and use a standard Lionel whistle ?