Electric railroad company questions advice needed MTH PRR T-1

The motor is DC,

If I was doing this,  I would purchase the Cruise Commander with the R4LC board. Plus the articulated Sound Commander. Plus the HiFi Fat boy speaker. Plus Gun Runner John's Super Chuffer. And I would use GRJ's optical sensor circuit to trigger 4 chuffs per revolution.

This engine has a large Pittman motor so you would indeed want the full blown Cruise Commander.  As for the chuff count wouldn't this engine have had 8 chuffs?

Pete

Nick, this is a great question and when you do the change over, let us know the results. Happy New Year to you and Your family....

Nick,

Out of curiosity why not use proto sound 3?  Why TMCC? Interested in this change over. I will be watching for the results. Happy New Year 

Mike

Guys thanks for this very useful info!!

CTR- Sounds like I have a few things to lookup and buy...Hifi fat boy speaker, gun runner johns super cchufferchuffer, and GRJ's optical sensor!  That was great help!  if you have links for those items I would praise you lol  

Pete-yes technically it would be 8 chuffs if you combine the 4 chuffs from each set of drivers.  The articulated sound board will take care of the sound of 8 chuffs per rev

leapin Larry- what's up pal!  Thanks for keeping "track" of me lol!  This will be a fun project for my daughter and I to do together.  The T-1 is our favorite steamer and she's really into electronics and robotics so it will be a learning experience for us both!  Plus dad reeeeally wanted a scale T1 with legacy like sounds and I love the early era body MTH uses for the T1.  Whenever Lionel makes a scale legacy T1 then we will have both styles lol!  Thanks and happy new year to you and yours as well!  

Especially now that boxcar bill is gone and his turn-key service, ERR needs to do a much better job of describing their products and their applications. It feels like they are tech guys who are selling only to other tech guys and thus, a lot of the basic overview is missing.

Ok so I choose to do this for multiple reasons. First of all I love the early era T1 style and I love Lionel sounds so to combine the two was ideal for me. Honestly I'm not a huge fan of MTH at least when it comes to steam engines up against the sound of Lionel steamers. And the Proto 3.0 chuffing is just aweful on the articulated engines. Take a listen for yourself in this video: ((fast forward to 20:00))

Sounds like a crappy old train sounds chuff right?  Yeah so that's why. Then compare that to my VisionLine bigboy which is the same soundest on the electric railroad articulated board:

Now that's kinda a no brainier decision comparing the sounds. Right!? Lol. 

ON another note, I have much more enjoyment running Lionel trains than MTH. MTH engine always give me issues wirh engineer error signal bs... And not to mention the remote is just not as user friendly. And yes I know they've come out with the wifi for MTH and that's supposed to solve it all right?  Well having to update my tiu is a pain in the you know where, so I may just never do it. I'm happy with Lionel's wifi system and legacy remote. 

And YES!!  Electric railroad need to update their website with a little tech info describing the products better. Hard to grasp for a newbie in electronics. 

Funny, I'm looking to do the same thing with the same locomotive.  It is a beauty to behold as it races down the track at full throttle on my ZW-C.  As to why I'm doing TMCC and not PS-3, I have a Legacy base and no DCS.  And currently I have no interest in spending $200+ on the upgrade and then another $350+ on a system to run the locomotive.  I'd rather spend that $350+ on more TMCC upgrades to get more of my MTH PS-1 locomotives in command.

To the OP, I believe the sound set from ERR comes with a speaker and enclosure, so no need to buy another Fat Boy speaker.  And (EDIT) I'm almost 100% sure the ERR sound board is not the same as the VL Big Boy sounds.  ERR are RS5 and the VL BB is Legacy (Could be considered RS6.).  Plus the ERR articulated sound set was out long before the VL BB was even being designed.

Awesome you should do it too Sinclair!  The ERR board has the same sound set, but yes technically it's more like RS5 because it will not have a quill able whistle and be a true legacy system. But it's awe fully dam close enough for my liking. Those whole deal including the ERR components and the engine are going to run me about $650 bucks. Compare that to a brand new Proto 3 T1 at around $1299 or a legacy steamer this option starts to sounds really appealing. 

Here's the sounds of the articulated steamer ERR board:

https://m.soundcloud.com/rrsounds/articulated

I'm on my second ERR cruise install with John's super chuffer board.  You will not be disappointed.

ERR Railsounds come with a baby (40mm) fatboy. The standard Fatboy is 50mm. Its worth getting the larger speaker if you have the room. If ERR stocks the large Fatboy, best order it with the other stuff to save on shipping.

Pete

Nick,  It is quite unfair to compare a 1997 PS-1 chuff to a Legacy 2014 engine don't you think?  You should listen to some of the later PS-2 3V and PS-3 engines for a fair comparison.  It certainly is a personal preference item, but I think many would say MTH has made great improvements in closing the Sound gap with Lionel, just as Lionel closed the gap with scale detail and speed control.

Also remember your not getting Legacy sounds with ERR.  Your getting a RS 5.0 equivalent, TMCC based system with Back emf speed control.  This will be quite different then a Legacy engine.

Frankly, I still think the lack of an integrated smoke system and electronic chuff control with Lionel is a big drawback when doing a scale engine, let alone all the various lighting feature controls you get with MTH that TMCC just doesn't support.

Having said that, it is a personal choice and if your preferred operating system is Lionel, then ERR is your best choice, just as those that use DCS upgrade Lionel engine to PS-2/3.

Sinc, a one time investment in any control system, only sets you back one engine.  Once done it opens up a tremendous breath in engine selection and operation.

As far as ERR support, their Website is one of the best with readily available installation and operation instructions.  There are plenty of folks technically capable of helping when questions are asked, let alone calling ERR directly, or sending an e-mail.  G

I just had a hell of an idea. So if I bought the bigger fat boy speaker and still had the smaller fat boy speaker why not run a wire with a separate teather (like the VL challenger) and have sound in the locomotive as well as the tender!  it may work and sound VisionLine ish!

ERR Railsounds was designed for an 8 ohm speaker. You could drive two speakers but they would either have to be 4 ohms (wired in series) or 16 ohm wired in Parallel. Lionel offers 16 ohm Fatboys or you could shop around for 4 ohm speakers. 

Pete

GGG posted:

Sinc, a one time investment in any control system, only sets you back one engine.  Once done it opens up a tremendous breath in engine selection and operation.

This is true.  But if I hold out long enough, a buddy might just get so fed up with the issues he's having with DCS that he'll want to pitch it, and I can just go get it from him for the price of gas to drive over. 

If you do the speaker you want the parallel wiring in the same location.  Series wiring seems to under drive the speakers and you won't be impressed.  At least I wasn't when I tried it on an engine.   G

See this is why I asked you guys the big questions. Lol!  

GGG- I was comparing legacy sounds to Proto 3.0.  Not ps1. And I do own Proto 3.0 steamers and they're nice don't get me wrong I just feel Lionel has the advantage and especially over articulated PS3 sounds. 

Norton-think I should get the other speakers and do the double speaker idea? Lol 

Theoretically, adding more speakers might add some bass and volume. This would be true in say, home audio, where you rarely use the full power of the amp. With Railsounds the amp is the limiting factor. It won't hurt to try though. Lionel has produced tenders with two speakers as well as at least one with four Fatboys (Century Club NYC PT Tender). It does have a richer sound but not significantly louder than a single speaker can deliver.

Pete

Nick PghTrainFanatic posted:

Ok so I choose to do this for multiple reasons. First of all I love the early era T1 style and I love Lionel sounds so to combine the two was ideal for me. Honestly I'm not a huge fan of MTH at least when it comes to steam engines up against the sound of Lionel steamers. And the Proto 3.0 chuffing is just aweful on the articulated engines. Take a listen for yourself in this video: ((fast forward to 20:00))

Sounds like a crappy old train sounds chuff right?  Yeah so that's why. Then compare that to my VisionLine bigboy which is the same soundest on the electric railroad articulated board:

Now that's kinda a no brainier decision comparing the sounds. Right!? Lol. 

 

ON another note, I have much more enjoyment running Lionel trains than MTH. MTH engine always give me issues wirh engineer error signal bs... And not to mention the remote is just not as user friendly. And yes I know they've come out with the wifi for MTH and that's supposed to solve it all right?  Well having to update my tiu is a pain in the you know where, so I may just never do it. I'm happy with Lionel's wifi system and legacy remote. 

 

And YES!!  Electric railroad need to update their website with a little tech info describing the products better. Hard to grasp for a newbie in electronics. 

Ok I understand now, You are right the chuffing sound is not impressive on the MTH.   I only asked because I only have a max curve of 0-54 so I do not own any big boys.  In my next layout plan I will have 0-72 and 0-84 so I will be able to run the larger engines.  

Mike

With MTH you can't judge their sound quality based on one or even a few engines. They have gotten better with time and also varied in a given time frame. At least you have the ability to try many different sound files, which is difficult (RS4) or impossible with RS5 and above. I just swapped sound files on a MTH NYC Empire State Express Hudson and found one with significantly louder and more authoritative chuff and whistle sounds. No, its not better than Legacy but its much better than RS4 and at least as good as RS5.

Pete

I prefer to wire the speakers in parallel, and place one in the tender and one in the locomotive if possible.  This gives you a deeper sound, at least IMO.

Some thoughts:

If you want a TMCC upgrade go for the ERRCo Cruise Commander and their RS4 setup. If you want synchronized smoke it looks like GRJ's setup is your best choice. Back in the day I used quite a few TAS Puff n Chuff boards for that feature in combination with TAS' EOB.

If you really want Lionel's specific T1 sounds, you will have to buy the T1 ROM, the RS4 power supply, and some version of a (preferably) non-IR tether motherboard. This will cost about $105 not including shipping and mounting hardware, wiring, etc. The T1 sounds for their LM T1 is another option. I believe that was also RS4. You'll need to make a custom wiring setup to get the serial comm over from the CC board.

If you use the newer ERRCo sound setup, you're kind of stuck with their stock sounds but at least you'll have ERRCo tech support for a full ERRCo setup. The single speaker provided is actually pretty good and the wiring is easier.

You will have to trigger the chuff which is input into the Cruise Commander board. You can use a reed switch and two magnets on a tender wheel which is easy and can get you close enough to 4 chuffs/rev or you can mount 4 magnets on a driver and run the lines back through the tether. I thought the CC setup came with a reed switch but I just looked at one I recently received and I didn't get one. You can buy reed switches and magnets off eBay all day long though. I suggest the 14mm ones (qty. of 20 for $7, US sourced). Either chuff setup will require a bit of fiddling around to get it right.

I would not attempt to trigger more than 4 chuffs with a Lionel articulated sound set. That would just be awful to listen to and it wouldn't be right.

The other challenge is setting up the antenna. You can hide the one provided in a modified coal pile in the tender or isolate the tender shell from ground/outside rails and use that as an antenna. You could also try isolating something else like the walkway handrails but that would be a lot of work, at least more that doing something with the tender.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be hearing of other ideas, these are just my thoughts. I think there's another T1 thread around here somewhere....

The RailSounds Commanders for steam do come with a reed switch and one magnet.  I buy magnets in quantity from K&J Magnetics, they have small disk magnets pretty cheap.  If you choose to go with a RS4 board, there is a more compact solution than trying to find a MB and using the RS4 power supply.  It's the Lionel 691PMB2AC2 Powered Motherboard/Railsounds, this is the old base for the ERR RailSounds Commander.  The bonus is that the instructions for the older ERR RS Commander still apply to this board.  It's a more compact solution, and probably cheaper than doing it with the two boards.

For the antenna, I float the tender shell, I haven't have any significant issues doing that with most tenders.  It's a lot easier than screwing around with the handrails, at least IMO.

I "bit the bullet" and bought the crimp tool and an assortment of the various JST connectors used in Lionel locomotives.  The Engineer PA-09 crimp tool will do all of the Lionel 2.5mm, 2.0mm, and 1.5mm connectors commonly used in TMCC and Legacy locomotives.  All of the connectors and contacts are available from Digikey or Mouser.

Wow this is plentiful and great info!

Thanks so much GRJ and norm!

 I'll probably just stay simple and use the provided speaker and then get extra magnets along with GRJ's super chuffer.  I kinda prefer the rs5 board with the articulated sounds and tech support sounds good if need be also.

I can't thank you all enough!  This is going to be fun! 

What is the output of that board vs. the classic RS4 power supply? I have one of the RS setups that ERRCo use to sell and it does not sound as good as the Lionel 3 board setup for the ROMs I use. 

Have fun Nick! I wish we still had TAS and Digital Dynamics around. DD made a nice little RS package I used in some smaller Weaver engines a few years ago...

Take a look at my T1 and Q1 threads on the 3RS board if you want to see how I handled those projects...

Norm, I believe Jon Z said his new integrated board had as much power as the old audio power board but I am with you. The old board would blow these new boards out of the water. Two steps down (aux1 4, aux1 4) and it would still sound louder than the new boards (and yes I am aware of the onboard pot).

Pete

Since I'm going through all the work to do this I'll probably install all LED lighting as well.   My preferred source is modeltrainsoftware and using their 18v option with the bridge rectifier and all that fun stuff ready to use. Keeps things simple and easy to understand for someone less inclined with circuits lol. 

Norm, I've never noticed any issue with the power output of the powered motherboard.  The audio board should determine the sound quality.  As long as it outputs the proper 5V DC, one would think it would not make a difference in the sound quality.  I used a lot of the old RS Commander kits before the new single board design.

Other than they're pictured in a different orientation, I don't know what the difference between the two boards you posted is.  I looked them up on Lionel, the 691-PMB2-10 is marked obsolete.  I've used a couple of these in steamers and they worked great.  I have a number of RS4 boards, so for an inexpensive sound upgrade, I just add one of these.

When I popped a Lionel factory ROM onto that powered m/b, the volume just wasn't there. I had to put the 3 board setup in to drive the sounds properly. Maybe some ROMs are optimized for their power supplies who knows. Maybe I like to look with my ears?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Norm, I've never noticed any issue with the power output of the powered motherboard.  The audio board should determine the sound quality.  As long as it outputs the proper 5V DC, one would think it would not make a difference in the sound quality.  I used a lot of the old RS Commander kits before the new single board design.

Other than they're pictured in a different orientation, I don't know what the difference between the two boards you posted is.  I looked them up on Lionel, the 691-PMB2-10 is marked obsolete.  I've used a couple of these in steamers and they worked great.  I have a number of RS4 boards, so for an inexpensive sound upgrade, I just add one of these.

Actually, I thought it was the opposite.  The PS board does the amplification and there for had more to do with sound quality than the RS board.  Certainly the quality of the audio clip matters too.  G

Nick PghTrainFanatic posted:

Since I'm going through all the work to do this I'll probably install all LED lighting as well.   My preferred source is modeltrainsoftware and using their 18v option with the bridge rectifier and all that fun stuff ready to use. Keeps things simple and easy to understand for someone less inclined with circuits lol. 

Actually, if you're going to use the Super-Chuffer, you already have an LED output for the headlight, that's how I do the Rule-17 lighting.  You'll need to replace the cab light with a 12V bulb if you want cab lights, the 6V bulbs that MTH uses will die a quick death.  The MTH locomotive will already have LED markers, so I'd consider just adding the appropriate components to light them.  If you go with track power, that's just a resistor and a diode, easy-peasy.  For the class lights on steamers, I like to run them from the headlight output of the TMCC board.  That way, when I use AUX2 to turn off the lights, the class lights go off as well.  For the tender, I also wire them to the headlight output (don't worry, it can carry the load) so they go off as well.  For the tender reverse light, the same diode and resistor for an LED there solves it's problem.

Posted:  "Actually, I thought it was the opposite.  The PS board does the amplification and there for had more to do with sound quality than the RS board.  Certainly the quality of the audio clip matters too."

 My Reply: The PS board is simply a power board.  The power amplifier is on the RS board.   The sound mix is the determining factor on the loudness of the system.

Cool awesome advice and tips!  I have plenty of 12v Leds.  I need to learn more about the diode and resistors tho. I just don't know enough about how to wire using them and what rating I need etc. it's all foreign to me lol.  I'm simple I stick with my 12v LEDs for the layout and run them on a 12v transformer no need for confusing wiring. And for the locos like i said I just buy the prewired 18v lights.  Sorry I'm a bit slow ��

GGG posted:

Actually, I thought it was the opposite.  The PS board does the amplification and there for had more to do with sound quality than the RS board.  Certainly the quality of the audio clip matters too.  G

 Not unless something has changed.  The amplifier chip is on the RS audio board, the LM486 next to the connector.  The speaker connects to the audio board as well.  I'm not sure where the idea that the amplifier is on the power supply comes from.  When I look at a RS4 motherboard, I don't see anything that suggests the audio comes from the P/S board.  Are we looking at the same parts?

Edit:  I see Jon Z. beat me to it, and if he doesn't know, the earth has fallen off it's axis!

Regardless of where the Power Amplifier actually lives, the volume, at least to some of us, is much louder from the old RS4 three board setup than it is with new single board. That even with a cheap thin paper speaker commonly used on the early RS4 engines by Lionel and the 3rd Parties.

Pete

Not sure what you're seeing.  I just did a test, I have a test board that has the three boards in a standard MB that I use for testing TMCC stuff.  I checked the volume of that rig, then moved to the powered motherboard with the same audio board and same speaker.  I can't detect any difference in volume between the two setups.

John, its not just subjectively louder. I have a db meter app I have used to compare volumes. My K-line Hudson with the original  RS4 boards and thin speaker is 3db louder than my Lionel Vision Hudson.

Pete

What can I say, I couldn't detect any volume difference, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.  I've probably used at least 20 of those boards from the time of the RS4 based RS Commander and using these from Lionel.  I use them in my Station Sounds diner upgrades, they're nice and compact.  I pair them with the RCDR TMCC board for a nice small footprint sound solution.