emergency exit

We've got some freaky canyons in British Columbia, where trains operate -

http://www.canada.com/vancouve...52-b7ad-af8a815ddaab

What do they tell you to do, in a situation like that? I've driven the roads/highways in some of these steep canyon areas; they can raise your hair.

Rick

Don't know if anyone puts out instructions of that nature.  It's pretty much left up to the judgment of those affected.

I also don't know what the statistics show, but a lot of folks choose to stay with the engine, feeling that that offers the best chance of survival.  I, fortunately, was never faced with the choice, but several have told me that they hit the floor and hugged the water cooler base, or whatever else was handy, and rode it out.  Crews facing head end collisions have gone back to trailing units while they still had the time and ridden it out there. 

Jumping off not only offers the threat of a bad landing, but being hit by wrecking engines or cars.

No good choices exist, once the dice are rolled.  Perhaps that is why nobody has set rules covering the situations . . .

EdKing

Wow, what an incredible story Rick! Going over a cliff in the dark, the engineer had the presence of mind to cut the power in case they ended up in the water, and they walked away from it, unbelievable!

Most forms of commercial transportation have some form of emergency equipment and procedures; but, apparently, not trains. Not even some form of an air bag restraint...

It's pretty much overwhelms you... given the possibilities. Sometimes, when I've watched a passing train, I noticed the lead unit(s) have this swaying motion going on(they sort of rock back and forth... side-to-side. I wouldn't want to be on one of those canyon rail bridges, that traverse the canyon walls, with a river raging below, when that happened.

The canyons I mentioned, are notorious for various type of slides. When you're working areas like that, you never know what's around the corner.

It's interesting that occupation health and safety rules don't seem to apply, here.

Rick

Ricardo,

Look at the position of the unit up above; if that came down...

Rick

If one is going to be paranoid about everything that could possibly happen, he shouldn't get into the cab.

Commercial aircraft, lake freighters or ocean going vessels don't have airbags, either.  The Great Lakes particularly can turn on a mariner in a moment.

Rusty

 I've never been  instructed to do an "emergency exit" although I've heard that some conductor trainees a few years ago were taught an emergency dis-mount from moving equipment .

I have no clue if they still teach this ?

Like Ed said,doing so could cause injury.I have known of a few incidents of injury resulting from jumping from locomotives when an accident was about to happen,none fatal thank goodness.

What I always find interesting in stories like this is the "It happened in slow motion" description and for the longest time I never understood exactly why that happens. Recently on the Science  Channel they did a show on how your brain proccesses information. Apparently under extreme duress your body pumps out massive amount of andrenalin for your "fight or flight" and that causes your brain to process information 50 times faster ten it normally could including your visual centers allowing you to make almost instantaneous choices to allow you the best chance for survival.

Jerry

Rusty,

Aircraft have emergency equipment and procedures that can help the occupants survive; so do ships...

Jerry,

A few years ago, I was driving with my wife, who was sitting in the front passenger seat, along with  our young child and dog - who were seated in the back seat; we were traveling on a divided highway(two lanes, a grass median, two more lanes... heading in the opposite direction); at approximately 100kmh.

I was looking ahead... when I noticed an erratic movement, to my left, out of the corner of my eye. As I looked to check what caught me attention, I saw a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed coming across the median(the median dipped in the middle and then raised to meet the road) this caused the guy to temporarily become airborne; now, he's coming right at us; I can see his terrified contorted face... our eyes actually met... for a split second; and, I immediately steered to the right... I didn't even have time to see if the right hand lane was clear(luckily it was) as the guys vehicle touched down - where we had just been - a fraction of a second ago; I saw his vehicle bounce... swerve; and then, I lost sight of him, in my rear-view mirror.

Within a second or two, my wife burst into tears... we surely would have died, if we had impacted with that guy.

All that happened, in in just a few seconds.

Rick

An airbag in a locomotive would be totally useless. And, with the physics involved, it would not do any good anyway.

The airbag in your car is to cushion the STOP. When your car hits something, it is going to STOP - RIGHT NOW. The G-forces involved in that sudden stop are what cause injury. The airbag mitigates the effect of those G-forces and allows your body to better absorb the G-forces, thus avoiding injury.

If a locomotive hits a car or truck at a crossing, you will feel NOTHING. The weight relationship between a typical train and an automobile is the same as you driving your car over a pop can. Do you need an airbag to drive over a pop can? Of course not. Will you feel it? Maybe...maybe not.

Even a locomotive going over a cliff as in the story above, does not generate injury-producing G-forces. The tremendous mass and weight of the locomotive come into play. A locomotive cannot be "stopped" quickly by almost anything. Since its sudden stop is much slower than a car, a human body riding aboard the locomotive will likely survive the stop, as did the engineer in the story above.

I've never heard of any instruction regarding leaving the locomotive while it's on the move.  Issuing such instructions would expose the railroad to major liability in a situation where the risk of serious injury or death is as high as it can get.  It's better to let the crew decide that on its own.

In my own case, I relied on as much knowledge as I could get about past wrecks and what the outcome was for the engine crew.  Always, when running down the railroad, I mentally noted where I would jump if I ever had to, especially if I had a runaway on the hill.  

I was in one wreck, when a UPRR train on an adjacent track jacknifed a car out in front of our locomotive.  I dumped the air, left the seat, hit the floor, and braced my feet against the front cab wall.  The wreck occurred like it was in slow motion, with dust, noise, rocking, and freight cars piling up around the engine, which rode up on the flatcar that was jacknifed over onto our track.

I was totally uninjured and, helped the other crew member climb through the derailed cars.  When the Trainmaster showed up, all I wanted was a ride to the roundhouse to tie up and go home for a stiff drink.  The other crew member injured his knee, was taken to the hospital, and was off work for a while.  He had also hit the floor, but was not braced.

Rich,

The locomotive I operated, a few year ago, was void of any type of impact protection; it had numerous hard surfaces and edges that could cause injury, to a tumbling human being. If you were lucky enough to be able to activate an energy inflate button; you might survive...

Tumbling unrestrained and unprotected... is extremely dangerous; the head and neck are extremely vulnerable, to life threatening injury. If the train crew personnel are overweight and out of shape, that increases the likelihood of serious injury.

Seat belts and a impact protection system, might save lives. The CN crew was extremely LUCKY; it could have been much worse.

Rick

Tom(90),

"It's better to let the crew decide that on it's own" -  is a great out for the railroad(company).

Actually, mandatory seat restraints would be appropriate; you could unbuckle, to move about, for a few minutes; and, then, refasten...

Low speed work could be done without buckling up; but, a built-in monitoring system could be used, to make sure that those - reluctant - crew members, complied. That's right, lads, you get injured, in an incident; and, you're not wearing your seat restraint - you're not covered by compensation...

Throw in an industrial-strength impact protection system, and you might have something...

I can see some of you dinosaurs roaring, at this suggestion; personally, I don't care about reckless people; but, conscientious employees deserve the opportunity...

Rick

And yet, there are still fatalities in air and sea travel.

Your own related driving experience indicates a train crew is probably in more danger of their lives while driving to their assignment than encountering injury or fatality while running a train on the road.

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

I don't believe in luck, even though I have used the word "lucky" here.

"If" you attempt high risk activities, on an ongoing basis, the chances of something negative happening... is pretty obvious.

Rail teams(crews) that have to negotiate high risk routes, are risking their lives, on an ongoing basis; and, teams assigned to high risk zones, are definitely exposed to greater risk. High risk zones, like the link I provided, can be extremely dangerous... even lethal. When... who knows; but, I believe in being prepared. If I was your boss, or your partner... you would be thankful. I would look out for you.

Rick

Rick B, you just don't get it...

Rich,

I actually get it... quite well.

I spent a career in high risk environments, that could have turned lethal, literally, in seconds. Foresight is an excellent trait, to possess; especially, in unpredictable environments.

I know you wouldn't admit it; but, I think you would appreciate having a partner like me.

I see myself... off to the side; but, never too far away.

Rick

Also, does not the newer "safety cabs" provide better protection?

I was in UP 1988 (Katy Heritage) legally during the 844 events in Houston.  Seems to me if the locomtive is going is going to hit something, it will be below the level of the cab.

Dominic,

You could be in a tank, but if it falls off a cliff, and you're not secured in place... the armors not going to help you.

BTW, I was trained, and certified, as an Industrial First Aid Attendant; that means - I was legally permitted to practice first aid - in an industrial setting; which, includes, railroads.

Rick

quote:

If I was your boss, or your partner... you would be thankful. I would look out for you.

I doubt that!

Train crews have names for people like you. 'nuf said.

If you were my boss, I would never be able to get any work done. You would be so concerned for my "safety" that you would insist that I suit up in a full hazmat rig just to go to the bathroom.

Where do you think this country would be today if the founding fathers primary concern was to have a "safe" day? Do you think when Lewis and Clark set out on their expedition that they were concerned about having a "safe" day? What about all the other people in the world that took risks (oh my God, not that!) to actually accomplish something?

If we lived the way some of you safety types want us to live, everyone would just stay in bed because that is a relatively "safe" place to be. 

If that CN loco only went 75'further along it might have saved the steep fall because of the safety railing alng the right of way.

I believe all train crews should wear full face helmets, body armor, and bubble wrap. 

Rich,

If I really wanted to get the job done, I'd go with an automated rail freight system:

- using technology controlled trains; with no train crews or operator cabs, just powered units and rolling stock; that way, I'd hopefully have, significantly, less personnel issues to contend with...

but, for today's system- using manned equipment - safety is a MUST!

Years ago, when I was in my teens - there were seat belts available, in many automobiles; but, few of us ever wore them; we used to drink and drive, too.

At first, many people didn't like forced compliance(having to wear a seat belt); but, after awhile, they got used to it and I doubt many would stop wearing them, if the laws were changed.

Where I live, boaters mush comply with the current, new, safety regulations, too.

Why should a company have to pay a compensation claim, that could have been preventable?

BTW, all crash related injuries are not g- force based, i.e. - take any sturdy container you own, and put a whole raw egg(with the shell intact) inside the container, then seal the container. Now, drop the container from shoulder height, or roll it down a steep grade... I doubt you would expect the egg to be intact, after that experiment.

Head and cervical(neck) injuries are extremely common, where there's been some type of fall. Increased intracranial pressure require immediate medial attention...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intracranial_pressure

Picture the two CN crew members tumbling about, unrestrained, banging into hard, sharp edges...

or your overweight 300lb. partner, landing on your head/neck, when you hit the bottom of a steep canyon...

Today's and tomorrow's safety equipment, and procedures... can, and will, help save workers lives, or they will help reduce the damage done...

It's a good thing that nature included some of us with foresight... and the will and discipline -  to heed and act upon our insight. Some British researchers think this cognitive trait/ability, is an evolutionary advancement, for our species, i.e. - some of us have the ability to learn, without actually having to subject ourselves to the dangers of trial and error...

Rick

It's not like automated systems have NEVER failed.  Fukushima comes to mind...  Automatic back-up generators that didn't.

Rusty

Depending on what type of accident an airbag like the Webmaster Rich M.  mentioned would be useless in a train engine. The weight of the diesel train engine alone is over 200 tons and add about 80 to 90 tons for each freight car, you won't be able to stop for much of anything going over 30 MPH. Stopping distances for trains are usually figured in miles, like a mile & a quarter or a mile & a half or two miles.

Also you would have to factor in each type of accident; is it a train verses tracker trailer, or derailment, or bride out, or tracks washed away? If an engineer would jump out the chances of being struck by some part of the train are almost 95%, even if they were to go into the water somehow.

I have seen some bad accidents on TV news and wonder why the crew stays in the cab? Simply put, they want to live!

As somebody else mentioned, you could squish a car parked on the tracks and not really feel it in the cab.

Lee Fritz

I remember a concept car in the 1980's that was designed to protect the occupants from any injury during a 60mph collision with a wall.

Basically, each occupant was enclosed in a foam cocoon as soon as the doors were closed.  Safe? You bet.  Practical? Nope.

It's also a good thing some cars are now being equipped with lane monitoring and automatic braking.  It gives the drivers more time to diddle with their smartphones...

Rusty

Let's reel this tangent back in, lads; I'm not talking about cocoons or anything that would be impractical. A good restraint system should only take seconds to secure or release; an impact system, specifically designed to meet the rail industry's needs, should be fluid... not cumbersome, when it deploys.

Surely, some Americans must have received the gift of foresight...

Oh ya, some of the less than fit crew members, will probably have heart related issues... in an extreme emergency. I don't see these people doing very well, in a physically taxing incident; would safety equipment help...

Rick

Ah...so we must assume that you are somehow "enlightened" in a way that those of us peasants in the unwashed masses cannot understand? Bull. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else.

Too many people today (including your egghead British "researchers") think they can reap a reward without enduring any risk. Hogwash. No one ever accomplished ANYTHING without exposing themselves to certain degree of risk.

This is not a new "evolutionary advancement." It is good old-fashioned laziness with a small does of psycho-babble thrown in.

We're all done here.