ERR Mini Commanders are no more! Possible Replacements

For a basic controller board couldn't an R2LC/R4LC and header pins work just fine.

@Sid's Trains posted:

For a basic controller board couldn't an R2LC/R4LC and header pins work just fine.

You still need a motor driver. I think the Cruise M is the next smallest item and thats significantly larger than a mini commander not mention the R2LC itself.

Pete

@Norton posted:

You still need a motor driver. I think the Cruise M is the next smallest item and thats significantly larger than a mini commander not mention the R2LC itself.

Pete

This is true for powered units, but if all you want it lights, couplers, smoke, etc in a dummy unit you can still use a radio board by itself.

@Sid's Trains posted:

For a basic controller board couldn't an R2LC/R4LC and header pins work just fine.

Did you forget that the R2LC/R4LC are unobtainium now as well?   The new price for the ERR R4LC is $90, then you have to add more electronics!  I expect the ERR R4LC to be discontinued at some point as well.

Right now the RCM2 boards list at $40, so that's the attractive option for small motorized stuff.

@Sid's Trains posted:

This is true for powered units, but if all you want it lights, couplers, smoke, etc in a dummy unit you can still use a radio board by itself.

If you have some R2LC's gathering dust, then I have your solution: Dummy Locomotive PCB

I was thinking of perhaps some logic wrapped around it to perhaps make it more useful without making it prohibitively expensive.

If the R4LC boards become obsolete then I guess that will be the end for ERR items altogether?

I'm sure John can just glue some electronics together and problem solved. Joking aside, yeah, this will impact quite a few things I would imagine. These are the ones that fit in tight spaces or is it for something different?

John, any chance you have the part number for the 2 pin and 10 pin connectors needed?

@PSM posted:

John, any chance you have the part number for the 2 pin and 10 pin connectors needed?

If you're talking about the RCM2 boards from Lionel, all three white connectors are the JST-PH series, the 9-pin and the two 2-pin connectors.  The antenna is a single conductor Dupont connector.  You can get the JST-PH connectors many places, I buy the cable assemblies from AliExpress to save time.

@romiller49 posted:

If the R4LC boards become obsolete then I guess that will be the end for ERR items altogether?

There's already a couple components on the R4LC that are hard to find, they're also out of production.  The main one is the FM receiver chip, that will likely spell the demise of that one as some point.

Here's just a spitball idea for a board to use an R2LC and add a simple half-wave motor driver to it in a fairly small space.  The board measures 1.5 x 1.25, and with the R2LC installed, it would be about 3/4" tall.  This would give you lights, couplers, smoke control, and a simple motor drive.

GRJ....very interesting. Please explain motor 1 and 2. 2 amp max each?

Richard

2.2A max?  What's that?  The Motor1 and Motor2 are the connections for a can motor.

Here's a schematic of the board.

GRJ thanks that clears it up for me.  A guy can hope after all. Actual schematic is very clear. Still interested. Have a few R2LC's left

Richard

I have a bunch of the R2LC-C07 boards, the only difference from the C08 is the reverse polarity of the lighting outputs in command mode.  I can easily accommodate that issue if needed.

Mine all are 08 version. Sadly I have several bad ones right out of Lionels sealed bags. Tested all of mine recently.

Lesson learned. My interest in testing right after receipt is higher now. If I ever start working with the modern Lionel systems I will build  or buy your test fixture.

Richard

I got a few bad boards over the years from Lionel, it happens.  Remember, any R2LC's or R2LC's you got from Lionel in recent years would be many years old, they stopped making them a long time ago!

I have a pair of MTH Centipedes on the bench, I'm seriously contemplating converting them to full Legacy operation, right now they have the Train America Studios EOB in them.  I have the RCMC boards and motor encoders, and also one Centipede RS-Lite board.  I may have to see about getting another Centipede board so both would have sound.

I bet i'm not the only one that would be interested in following that project. I know Bruk(sp) has posted some good documents on OGR. I need to educate myself on production dates of Lionel products using this equipment. I like to pick up non functional or non command locomotives and get them running and sounding good.

Richard

Well, I regard the TAS stuff as close to "not running right", so it's fair game.  I do want to tackle a nice steam and see if I can do the full up grade with whistle steam, etc.  I have a Mallet board and sound set, so if I find one for a reasonable price, that would be a candidate.  I did upgrade my scale PRR T1 Duplex to Legacy, I used the R4LC and the Legacy back-EMF motor driver.  That allowed me to use the RailSounds 6 stuff in the tender for the much better sound.  The next steam Legacy upgrade I'll use the RCMC board.

@Rppoind posted:

I bet i'm not the only one that would be interested in following that project. I know Bruk(sp) has posted some good documents on OGR. I need to educate myself on production dates of Lionel products using this equipment. I like to pick up non functional or non command locomotives and get them running and sounding good.

Richard

What makes a Legacy upgrade more difficult that say an ERR or PS3 upgrade is first there are no instructions and you have to make all the harnesses yourself. Thats the most tedious part. Thanks to Bruk, board layouts can be found here. Easiest path might be to own at least one Legacy locomotive that has the parts you intend to use so you can follow the path of the individual wires.

Bruk took it a step further by custom fabricating the required pipes and mounts for the added smoke and steam effects.

Pete

@Norton posted:

What makes a Legacy upgrade more difficult that say an ERR or PS3 upgrade is first there are no instructions and you have to make all the harnesses yourself. Thats the most tedious part. Thanks to Bruk, board layouts can be found here. Easiest path might be to own at least one Legacy locomotive that has the parts you intend to use so you can follow the path of the individual wires.

Bruk took it a step further by custom fabricating the required pipes and mounts for the added smoke and steam effects.

Pete

Fabricating all the wiring is for sure the hardest part for diesel upgrades.  I've taken a shortcut and bought pre-made 1.25mm PicoBlade, 1.5mm JST-ZH, and JST-PH harnesses for all the connector sizes on the RCMC and RS-Lite.  That way I only have to crimp pins on one end, and they're typically the larger connectors that are pretty easy to deal with.  I find the 1.5mm pins to be "finicky" to crimp, and the 1.25mm ones really difficult.

Bruk's documents made a huge difference, that's for sure.  I did find one minor mistake in the documents when doing the RCMC test set, the smoke thermistors are wired wrong in the diagrams.

Now that I have the experience of wiring all the inputs and outputs of the RCMC and RS-Lite to build my test fixture, I have a much better insight into dealing with the Legacy boards.  I'm almost done with my BEMC/RCDR test set, more good stuff learned there.  I just have to get the last couple parts to finish the BEMC test set, and I already have tested a few boards with it.

Looks good guys

Could all of this be done with arduino? I know basic programming on them, but it seems it could all be done right? That way it truly is open and much worry is eliminated. Now to find a arduino guru to help.

@Pu239 posted:

Could all of this be done with arduino? I know basic programming on them, but it seems it could all be done right? That way it truly is open and much worry is eliminated. Now to find a arduino guru to help.

The Arduino guru is the easy part.

What about the application-specific hardware, e.g. smoke and lamp drivers, motor FETs, triacs, and software, i.e. horn or whistle, chuff, unique command control protocol if you want to start from scratch, etc.

There's a ton of work needed in these areas for an Arduino to do the job.  Control software would be easy.

Lastly, if you don't care about starting completely from scratch you'd have to license software, and the present owners may not wish to do so.

Mike

Mike didn't even bring up the TMCC receiver, that's the obsolete chip, and you need to design a new receiver as part of this project.

The future of command control seems a bit cloudy these days, I am trying to stockpile a large number of ERR as funds allow.

@Pu239 posted:

Looks good guys

Could all of this be done with arduino? I know basic programming on them, but it seems it could all be done right? That way it truly is open and much worry is eliminated. Now to find a arduino guru to help.

I used a wireless Arduino to build a Mini-Commander like system for control of operating cars, described here. It reads TMCC commands from the Legacy PDI bus, and then sends them to RF69 radio modules installed in operating cars.

It's not a plug-and-play system, and isn't designed for engine control. But if you just want a cheap way to control operating cars with Legacy, and are willing to tinker a bit, then it works quite well.

It appears Trainz have some of these as well as a website called Royz Trains. Not familiar with these so I may be missing something.

Brad

@Professor Chaos posted:

I used a wireless Arduino to build a Mini-Commander like system for control of operating cars, described here. It reads TMCC commands from the Legacy PDI bus, and then sends them to RF69 radio modules installed in operating cars.

It's not a plug-and-play system, and isn't designed for engine control. But if you just want a cheap way to control operating cars with Legacy, and are willing to tinker a bit, then it works quite well.

The sticking point is the Legacy PDI bus, in an operating car you need a radio receiver.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The sticking point is the Legacy PDI bus, in an operating car you need a radio receiver.

That's why there's a radio module in the operating car.

One 'master' radio module plugs into, and is powered from, the Legacy PDI bus. It then passes on Legacy or TMCC commands over the RF69 wireless network to radio modules installed in operating cars, accessories, etc.

Sounds like a winner, however I wonder how likely it would be that most of the unwashed masses could duplicate what you did?   I read the description, I suspect I could get it working, but I also suspect that 99% of the readers here wouldn't have a chance of getting it going.

@Professor Chaos posted:

As compared to the ERR Mini Commander, the board I've designed is less capable, since it only provides an on-off delivery of track power to the output. But it would be fairly easy to design a more complex Moteino shield that included several outputs, including trials for variable voltage control. The system also requires you to install a master node, to transmit TMCC commands over the radio link. On the other hand the cost of the system is considerably less, and you can easily change the sketch in the nodes to achieve whatever kind of complex behavior you want.

I know you did a lot of the heavy lifting here, but I suspect you're assuming skills a vast majority of folks here simply don't have to "finish" the job.

Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!

I have a question for anyone here. in doing these legacy conversions. how is the lionel tach reader installed on the converting engines motor.

mth uses a tach strip to attach to the flywheel of the motor. wich can be used in any engine with a flywheel right. so converting to ps3  fairly easy.

now I understand getting all the lionel boards such as the right rcmc board ect. but there motor speed encoder is a plastic squirrel type cage set up.how is that Handeled in non lionel engine conversions?

I believe the Receiver chips are still manufactured, so I think the Mini-Commander, and other similar products, are still capable of being made.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

2.2A max?  What's that?  The Motor1 and Motor2 are the connections for a can motor.

Here's a schematic of the board.

<click on graphic to enlarge>

I used SCRs in the Beep Commander Rev1, Rev2 used Triacs - and a lot better operation was obtained, FWIW.

@SantaFeFan posted:

I believe the Receiver chips are still manufactured, so I think the Mini-Commander, and other similar products, are still capable of being made.

Jon, I see a business opportunity here making replacement boards for the ones going obsolete. Hint, hint.

Pete

@SantaFeFan posted:

I believe the Receiver chips are still manufactured, so I think the Mini-Commander, and other similar products, are still capable of being made.

Jon, that flies in the face of what I heard from Scott, and I did some research on the MC3372DR2/MLE3372 Low Power
Narrowband FM IF chip myself and found no stock anywhere, as well as it no longer being manufactured.  I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I spent quite a while chasing it.

@SantaFeFan posted:

I used SCRs in the Beep Commander Rev1, Rev2 used Triacs - and a lot better operation was obtained, FWIW.

Jon, I was going for a low component count, with the triacs I have double the parts.  I have no doubt that full-wave operation would be smoother.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jon, that flies in the face of what I heard from Scott, and I did some research on the MC3372DR2/MLE3372 Low Power
Narrowband FM IF chip myself and found no stock anywhere, as well as it no longer being manufactured.  I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I spent quite a while chasing it.

Lansdale.

@SantaFeFan posted:

Lansdale.

I did find that Lansdale might still be making them.  There's no stock anywhere, but they did offer backorders.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a bunch of the R2LC-C07 boards, the only difference from the C08 is the reverse polarity of the lighting outputs in command mode. I can easily accommodate that issue if needed.

MAN...DID I LEARN THAT LESSON THE HARD WAY!!!!!!

@RSJB18 posted:

MAN...DID I LEARN THAT LESSON THE HARD WAY!!!!!!

Those are the kinds of lessons you remember.

I learned that the LCRU has a random polarity of it's lighting outputs, sometimes positive to ground, sometimes negative.  That drove me nuts for some time before I sorted it out!