ERR RailSounds baffle fitting

A baffle does make a considerable difference especially in low frequency sounds. Rather than grinding metal you can use a hand operated sheet metal nibbler. A very handy tool that cuts metal into small bits.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.    I will purchase one and give it a try.  Is that particular device in the picture recommended?

Dennis

Getting the baffle in there is well worth the effort.

You might be able to make yourself a different baffle, I've used a number of things for baffles.  One that works pretty well is small spray can lids, I just cut them to the size needed for the job.  I've also used Styrofoam cups hot glued down, they work well too.

I like that idea;  working with Styrofoam won't exceed my skills. Thanks! Heck of lot better than cutting this metal, which is surprisingly tough.  

Dennis

The object of the exercise is to isolate the rear of the speaker from the front so the moving air doesn't cancel out part of the sound.  It usually affects the bass more, so without the baffle, the sounds are very "tinny".  The volume will really be enhanced with the baffle installed.

I fit a small Dixie cup over the speaker, which appears to completely seal it.  Two Dixie cups and a string works to move sound and communicate!    If it sounds weak, I will try something else.

Thanks for the idea. I was spinning my wheels.

Dennis

J Dennis posted:

Thanks, Pete.    I will purchase one and give it a try.  Is that particular device in the picture recommended?

Dennis

That is the one I have. Had it for nearly half a century. It will last if you don't abuse it. There are others but I don't have experience with them. Just google sheet metal nibblers. Most hits will be for powered ones but they aren't needed for this job.

Pete

I have what looks like the same nibbler, ADEL TOOL CO.  I even bought an extra nibbling die for it, and it's still in the box, the thing is tough, and I never needed the extra die.  I've probably had this for around 35 years, I bought it in my old house, so that was before 1989.

The MTH 20-2100-1 smoke unit is connected via a switch to track.   It also has a fan. Can the fan be connected to the Cruise Commander?  I cut wires, so am now not certain but I think the fan was powered by a rectifier mounted in the engine's front.  Is the fan compatible with Cruise Commander?

Dennis

If it's the PS/1 smoke unit and you didn't hack up the circuit board, it's powered directly from track power.  OTOH, I don't know what was in that specific engine.

It's an early MTH PS1 smoke unit with a fan, one of the first.    I know the smoke unit is powered by track AC, so it could be connected to the Cruise Commander. What do you guys do with the fan?   I could reinstall the little full-wave rectifier board mounted in the front (which did power the fan), and forget about TMCC control of smoke, but rather not.  A 2pdt slide switch appears to have powered AC to the smoke (via track) and DC to the fan (via the discrete rectifier).    Or use Cruise Commander's smoke output to power both the smoke unit itself and the original rectifier (which then powers the fan and effectively replacing the switch?)

 How do you handle the fan for your conversions?

Dennis

Well, since I have the Super-Chuffer for my installs, the fan is not a problem.  The Super-Chuffer powers the fan and of course, provides the chuffing and idle smoke functionality.  For the chuff switch, I use my Chuff-Generator, it provides programmable chuff rates. 

I'm confused about the rectifier board, the PS/1 smoke unit is a self-contained unit that takes track power in and handles the smoke resistor and fan.  Sometimes the electronics is separated from the physical smoke unit, but all the logic is there to control the smoke.

Maybe a picture of what you have and the "rectifier board" would be helpful in determining what you're dealing with.  If you have a bare smoke unit with no electronics support, that's not stock PS/1.

There's diodes on the fan's inputs.  The rectifier had AC inputs, and some LEDs on the outputs, along (I think) with the fan motor.  Wish I took better 'before' photos.  BTW, I do appreciate your help with this.

Dennis

That is a really old rig, I haven't encountered that one yet!   That looks like the fan motor supply, are the smoke resistors wired directly to track power?  If so, they can be powered from the TMCC R2LC.  The fan obviously needs 5V, and if you want chuffing smoke, you'll need something to provide that.  Of course, you also need a source of the chuff pulse, that's why I posted the two products above, that's how I do it.

Most of the PS/1 stuff has an integrated electronics board, sometimes mounted separately, and sometimes right on the smoke unit.  Some diesels had them mounted below in various configurations.

I see one side of the smoke unit is tied to the frame, and the other was track-supply via the smoke switch.  I believe the fan was powered by that small rectifier. If I used the output from the Cruise Commander (I assume is AC track voltage) to power BOTH the smoke unit AND input to the rectifier, do you think that would work?  I could attach one side of the rectifier to the frame and the other input to the Commander's 'smoke' output?  If not, I will reinstall it as-before and hopefully it will still work

What do you think the diodes on the fan are used for since it's looking for DC?  They're installed with opposite cathodes.   BTW, per the MTH site, this was one of their first smoke units.  

As this is a diesel, the chuff-unit wouldn't be appropriate, correct?  I have other MTH engines with smoke units as you pictured.

Dennis

Diesel, I guess the chuff isn't an issue, and I so wanted chuffing smoke.  

The little fan power supply should work right off the TMCC smoke output.  That component across the one smoke resistor is a temperature dependent resistor, if it gets a low enough voltage across it, it reduces in resistance to provide more current flow to the other resistor.  I suspect those resistors will turn out to be 16 ohms in the smoke unit.

If you want to see how well this will work on the TMCC output, take 18V from the transformer, insert a series diode in the feed, and power the smoke unit and fan supply with that.  That will simulate the output of the TMCC R2LC, half-wave track voltage from the triac.

The little power supply for the fan is a pretty standard power supply, the four diodes are a bridge rectifier, the filter cap smooths the DC, and the regulator gives you the 5V output for the fan.

Yes, after posting I decided to try just that.  So the 'smoke-out' of the Cruise Commander is just track voltage (or close to it), and may serve as a switch to the MTH power supply. There's also a power supply with robust diodes on the main driver board. Odd that they used two, different units.

Thanks again.  Guessing by your screen name, do you ever visit Kimberton Fish and Game?

Dennis

J Dennis posted:

Yes, after posting I decided to try just that.  So the 'smoke-out' of the Cruise Commander is just track voltage (or close to it), and may serve as a switch to the MTH power supply. There's also a power supply with robust diodes on the main driver board. Odd that they used two, different units.

No, the smoke out of the Cruise Commander is half-wave track voltage, it goes through the triac and only the positive alternation gets through.  When you "boost" by holding the smoke on down, you get full track voltage to preheat the smoke element.  The diode I mentioned is to simulate the half-wave output of the smoke triac in normal operation.  It's how I bench test smoke units before installation.

J Dennis posted:

Thanks again.  Guessing by your screen name, do you ever visit Kimberton Fish and Game?

I've been there, but I'm a member of Lower Providence Rod & Gun for when I want to shoot.

Reconnecting the p.s. on my bench with a diode inserted (to approximate the Cruise Commander) and directing that AC to both the p.s. and the smoke-unit worked. The smoke output was greatly diminished, but acceptable.    However, that may not be a problem with the CCommander installed, as I will be at full-track voltage all the time.

The original configuration had the smoke unit directly connected to  track voltage.   Fan was constant RPM, so the MTH p.s. wasn't bothered by the diode inserted into its AC supply.   I will try it with the CCommander and see what happens.    That MTH p.s. also powered the cabin's LED's, and I may just reconnect those too.

Thanks,

Dennis

Actually, it will NOT be at full voltage all the time.  The output of the CC is half-wave track power, exactly the same as you were getting from the diode test.  The only time you get full-wave track power is holding down the smoke boost (AUX1-9 for TMCC, + for Legacy)

You may have to swap the resistors to get better smoke.  When I use an MTH smoke unit in a Lionel setting, I have started using a single 20 ohm 3W resistor closest to the stack and packing the smoke wick with the Lionel shredded wick (or equivalent).  That gets me pretty good smoke for TMCC use.

Have not connected couplers or shell w/lights, but smoke unit is connected.  Smoke turns on and off (output from SMOKE on CC goes to smoke-unit and MTH fan power supply, pictured above). However, motors only run in forward direction.  Nothing happens when changed to reverse.  Both motors operate, but only in a forward direction.  Any ideas?

I also noticed that when turning Cruise on, after hitting the "9" key, smoke turns on, as if CC was ignoring the key-sequence.  Is that normal?  This is my first attempt at installing Cruise Commander, so not sure what to expect.

Thanks,

Dennis

Cruise Commander is probably broken.  Oddly, I just sent one back for replacement with the exact same issue.

As far as the key sequence affecting multiple functions, that's normal.  Since the CC isn't intercepting the serial data, but merely listening to it, if you perform a key sequence for some other function, it will happen as well.  The CC is responding to the key sequence as well.

Thanks.   I reset this multiple times, and after the fourth or fifth attempt, it now works in reverse.  Weird.    I read in the forums someone, perhaps you, suggested resetting  a 'Commander M' multiple times, and that trick worked on the Cruise Commander as well.

Thanks again,

Dennis

Interesting, I'd suspect the R2LC may have an issue in that case.  The CC-M is a unique case as they tap off the serial data and there's a possibility for a signal level issue.  However, on the CC, the processor has a direct connection to the serial data and I've never had that kind of issue.

You might be correct.  In the course of the resets, I did also reseat the R2LC.  Perhaps the physical reset rather than electronic fix it.  Not sure.  I also had a short-circuit with sparks, which may have helped. It was after the sparks that it began working in reverse.

Dennis 

It just needed that "jolt" to get it's mind right.

I find neither MTH PS1 coupler works.  I have a new,  spare coupler that works in the front position but not the rear.  I hear nothing when plugged into the rear-coupler position, but it pops open when plugged into the front. I reset the CC, but no joy.  I'm guessing the CC is bad, or did I miss something?

Thanks,

Dennis

The R2LC controls the couplers directly, the CC is just provides the connection between the R2LC and the coupler connectors on the CC motherboard.

Something is very odd as I use PS/1 couplers all the time in upgrades, they work just as well as the Lionel couplers with TMCC.  PS/2 couplers, OTOH, are much too low impedance and will take out the R2LC triac with continued use.

Simple test, remove the R2LC from the CC and turn the unit on.  If the coupler still pops open, my guess is a wiring issue.

The spare coupler (which has a matching connector for CC board; got from Scotts many years ago) works fine in the front-coupler position, but not when plugged into the rear-coupler position.  Neither MTH coupler works in either position.  I thought the R2LC board is what communicates with CAB-1? It's the top board, correct?   If I remove it, the CC will still respond to the open-coupler command?  Thanks,
Dennis

Also, the couplers are AC, yes?  No polarity, correct?

Dennis

Couplers are AC, no polarity.  The point of removing the R2LC was just to see if a wiring issue was causing the coupler to fire without the R2LC installed.  It obviously won't respond to commands with the R2LC removed.  Your symptom of the rear coupler not working suggests the R2LC rear coupler triac is bad.

Measure the resistance of the MTH couplers, if they're in the 5-7 ohm range, they should work just like Lionel couplers.  If they're less than 4 ohms, they're PS2/3 couplers and will not be suitable for using with the TMCC setup.

Yes, I did measure them to compare to the working, 'spare' coupler.  Both are around 6.2 ohms, measured from the bottom of the Cruise board to the wire at the coupler end, so I know they are attached and see the CC. This makes no sense, as the spare coupler measures about the same.  I will play around with them, but am lost at this point.  Again, neither MTH coupler works and my spare coupler only works when attached to the Cruise Commander's front coupler position. Yet, electrically, all couplers appear to be about the same.  Just for fun, I did reverse the wires but it made no difference, nor should it.

Thanks,

Dennis

The working spare is 7.5 ohms, slight 1 ohm more.  That's the only difference I can see.

Dennis

I'm at a loss as well, I use PS/1 couplers interchangeably with Lionel couplers, and it's never been a problem.

Have you connected those couplers to a transformer at 16-18 volts to see if they open?  In that regard, what voltage are you applying to the track when testing?  I find that many TMCC electrocouplers won't fire properly until the track voltage is around 15 volts or more.

I had earlier adjusted TPC-300 voltage from 17 to 18V,  but no difference.   However, your idea of powering them directly from a transformer actually fixed the problem!!!   I ran it up/down a few times, and nothing happened, but eventually couplers got warm, and opened.  Reconnecting them to the front-coupler on the CC, and they now both work.    However the rear position on CC is still dead.    Does that suggest a bad CC or R2LC?  I suppose I could just connect the rear coupler to the front-coupler position, and be done with it. Naw.   

Thanks,

Dennis

98% sure that the rear coupler triac on the R2LC is dead.  You can try a different R2LC to see.  The triac can be replaced, I've done it lots of times.

I purchased this a few weeks ago, so will probably seek a replacement, but will keep your suggestion in mind for the future. Do you have schematics on this device?  You are very familiar with it.

Thanks much for you help. You saved me hours, maybe days.

Dennis